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Do you carry your 1911 in "condition 0?"

WalkingWolf

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For the OP (if still alive):

Unlike Condition Two, which adds time, especially if one-handed, Condition One adds ZERO time to draw, present, and fire. Thumbing off the safety should be done during the rotation of the draw. The pistol is ready to fire the moment it is pointed downrange, even before extension and sight alignment. Why would you not use it?

Honestly, a modern 1911, in a proper holster, is probably quite safe without using the thumb safety. But there's just no need not to use it.
Did you actually mean that condition two was too fast? Sorry that I said too slow, basically is that not what you meant above? It is either faster, same time, or too slow, please elaborate?

And let me again point out that EVEN if it does take more time, it is none of your business unless you are talking about yourself. And then it is none of mine. Plus again condition two relates to the OP how?
 
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MAC702

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"Adding time" (which is an absolute term) does NOT necessarily make anything "too slow" which is a relative term. Now, some have claimed to extraordinary training that adds zero time to a one-handed hammer-cock on a 1911 during the draw. I have not disputed that claim. I have no need to practice it, and I also will not teach it to people looking for how best to deploy the 1911 design, regardless of the lack of a decocker.

I'm rather tired of having words put into my mouth, as I try to choose my words carefully. I am also tired of being lumped together with all the ideas of others who may share only one or two of mine. Please do not quote me if you intend to try to correct multiple [unnamed] other people in the same post. And please quote me exactly if you wish to debate something I said.
 
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WalkingWolf

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"Adding time" (which is an absolute term) does NOT necessarily make anything "too slow" which is a relative term. Now, some have claimed to extraordinary training that adds zero time to a one-handed hammer-cock on a 1911 during the draw. I have not disputed that claim. I have no need to practice it, and I also will not teach it to people looking for how best to deploy the 1911 design, regardless of the lack of a decocker.

I'm rather tired of having words put into my mouth, as I try to choose my words carefully. I am also tired of being lumped together with all the ideas of others who may share only one or two of mine. Please do not quote me if you intend to try to correct multiple [unnamed] other people in the same post. And please quote me exactly if you wish to debate something I said.
OK makes sense, but when arguing or talking about the OP DON't go off topic with something that is not related to the OP. Don't assume what it is for you is for others. And most of all worry about how you carry. BTW do not make accusations of me like accusing me of arguing.
 
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WalkingWolf

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Which Detonics? Their most famous firearms have grip safeties and use the 1911 manual-of-arms.

The MTX model does not have a grip safety, but is not "designed to be carried Condition 2." It has the normal frame-mounted thumb safety. Do you have anything from the manufacturer to support your claim?

Even the defunct Mk VI has a frame-mounted thumb safety.

Why would a modern gun that is "designed to be carried Condition 2" not have a decocker? No manufacturer that would expect to survive a lawsuit would claim this.
Could you provide cites for the bold?
 

eye95

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There is a problem with round in chamber and hammer down. The problem is not one of being unsafe to carry. The problem is it is unsafe to put the firearm into that condition. I know from personal experience. Fortunately, following other safety rules ensured that the round went downrange while everyone was behind the firing line.

There is no way to safely decock a 1911 design and guarantee the round will not fire, no matter how gently you think you are lowering the hammer. Flipping the safety is so much easier that cocking or decocking, so just leave it cocked and lock it.
 

WalkingWolf

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There is a problem with round in chamber and hammer down. The problem is not one of being unsafe to carry. The problem is it is unsafe to put the firearm into that condition. I know from personal experience. Fortunately, following other safety rules ensured that the round went downrange while everyone was behind the firing line.

There is no way to safely decock a 1911 design and guarantee the round will not fire, no matter how gently you think you are lowering the hammer. Flipping the safety is so much easier that cocking or decocking, so just leave it cocked and lock it.
Read the history of the reason that the safety was added to the 1910 to get accepted by the Calvary. It is why the thumb safety was added to when on horseback. It is not unsafe to put the gun in that condition anymore than it is unsafe to lower the hammer on a a SA revolver. It is done with two hands, and is very safe. I posted it already maybe you missed it, but the hammer is blocked with the left thumb and the hammer lowered using both thumbs. The gun cannot fire when there is a object blocking the firing pin. This condition was not a problem with the SA Army revolver, or even when the army went to double action revolvers. Once a round was fired the hammer was at rest on a empty casing, not so with the 1910 Colt semi auto. With the grip safety it took two hands to lower the hammer safely, which is near impossible on horseback, so the safety was added.

Safe procedure to lower from condition zero to condition two. First put thumb safety on. Second only do so in a safe place such as a clearing barrel or a safe downrange. With 1911 in right hand and finger OFF the trigger and outside the trigger guard place the left hand over the slide touching/holding right hand trigger finger with left hand fingers. Place thumb firmly in between rear of slide and hammer(very firmly). Then take off safety with right thumb, and pull trigger to release hammer onto thumb(it can't go anywhere). Now while still depressing trigger use right thumb to gently lower hammer at the same time as slowly(very slowly) as using left thumb to unblock hammer gradually.

It is the same method used for SA Army if it should get cocked and not fired, though the hammer can be lowered with one hand easier on the Army IMO it should be done the same as the 1911.
 
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shawn

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I carry cocked and locked. Thumb safety up. I carry in a kydex holster that won't really let the thumb safety come down unless its out if the holster. the way i look at it is this. Draw, shoot, deal with police, move on with life. In the interest of preparedness and simplicity cocked locked and ready to go is MY best method of carry. I'm comfortable with it and it works for me. If ll you carry the way someone else says you should then you may not be 100% comfortable and soilid with doing what needs to be done when that time comes.
 

WalkingWolf

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I carry cocked and locked. Thumb safety up. I carry in a kydex holster that won't really let the thumb safety come down unless its out if the holster. the way i look at it is this. Draw, shoot, deal with police, move on with life. In the interest of preparedness and simplicity cocked locked and ready to go is MY best method of carry. I'm comfortable with it and it works for me. If ll you carry the way someone else says you should then you may not be 100% comfortable and soilid with doing what needs to be done when that time comes.
+1 Bingo!:cool:

It is each individual's choice how they carry, as long as no laws are broken while doing so. It is great that there are still individuals who make decisions based on their needs, not the wants of others.
 

eye95

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I know how to decock a 1911. Thanks very much for the lesson you felt the need to give me anyway.

Again, no matter how carefully you lower the hammer, there is the chance, maybe tiny, but a chance nonetheless, that the round will fire. I don't recommend thinking otherwise. It ranks up there with thinking a firearm is unloaded.

There is a reason that firearms have multiple safety measures and there are multiple safe-handling rules: All safety measures fail, and the more backups you have, the less the chance that all will fail. In my case, despite two highly unlikely failures, range safety rules ensured that the round went downrange.


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<o>
 

Gunslinger

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Read the history of the reason that the safety was added to the 1910 to get accepted by the Calvary. It is why the thumb safety was added to when on horseback. It is not unsafe to put the gun in that condition anymore than it is unsafe to lower the hammer on a a SA revolver. It is done with two hands, and is very safe. I posted it already maybe you missed it, but the hammer is blocked with the left thumb and the hammer lowered using both thumbs. The gun cannot fire when there is a object blocking the firing pin. This condition was not a problem with the SA Army revolver, or even when the army went to double action revolvers. Once a round was fired the hammer was at rest on a empty casing, not so with the 1910 Colt semi auto. With the grip safety it took two hands to lower the hammer safely, which is near impossible on horseback, so the safety was added.

Safe procedure to lower from condition zero to condition two. First put thumb safety on. Second only do so in a safe place such as a clearing barrel or a safe downrange. With 1911 in right hand and finger OFF the trigger and outside the trigger guard place the left hand over the slide touching/holding right hand trigger finger with left hand fingers. Place thumb firmly in between rear of slide and hammer(very firmly). Then take off safety with right thumb, and pull trigger to release hammer onto thumb(it can't go anywhere). Now while still depressing trigger use right thumb to gently lower hammer at the same time as slowly(very slowly) as using left thumb to unblock hammer gradually.

It is the same method used for SA Army if it should get cocked and not fired, though the hammer can be lowered with one hand easier on the Army IMO it should be done the same as the 1911.
I carry cocked and locked 1911s and Hi-Powers. I can also carry my FNX 40 that way, but it has a decocker. Releasing the hammer with a live round should rarely if ever need to be done. If it is for some reason that escapes me, I use the same method you mention--thumb of weak hand between the hammer and firing pin. 1911s that are model 80s won't fire unless the trigger is depressed the full time until the hammer strikes the pin, so if you release it after moving the hammer off the stop, it won't fire. Model 70s and Hi-Powers could, however. Dropping the hammer from half cock will not fire them in any event, so once you get to that position, via the thumb between drill, further release is much less stressful and not going to cause a negligent discharge. Personally, I would leave the pistol on half cock rather than lower a hammer to the firing pin for any reason I can conceive of--or of which I could conceive, if you want to be grammatically correct...that would also apply to a SAA or Blackhawk.
 
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Maverick Lee

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I know how to decock a 1911. Thanks very much for the lesson you felt the need to give me anyway.

Again, no matter how carefully you lower the hammer, there is the chance, maybe tiny, but a chance nonetheless, that the round will fire. I don't recommend thinking otherwise. It ranks up there with thinking a firearm is unloaded.

There is a reason that firearms have multiple safety measures and there are multiple safe-handling rules: All safety measures fail, and the more backups you have, the less the chance that all will fail. In my case, despite two highly unlikely failures, range safety rules ensured that the round went downrange.


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If you know how to do it properly then how did you manage to have an AD? It's impossible if done correctly. I've carried condition 2 for nearly 20 years now without an AD... going to condition 2 exactly as described. I'm not trying to yank anyone's chain here but it gets old when people say that going to condition 2 is unsafe. It's only unsafe if done incorrectly.
 
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eye95

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You go ahead and keep thinking that. Just please stop telling others that LIE. If they are stupid enough to believe YOU, your ideas will put THEM in danger.

Folks, no matter how careful you think you are being, there is no safe way to decock a 1911. Don't do it. Leave it cocked and snick the safety. That is why it is there.

Stop listening to people who think they are giving smart advice who are asking you to do something incredibly dumb. Let them do their own stupid stuff. You stay smart.
 

WalkingWolf

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You go ahead and keep thinking that. Just please stop telling others that LIE. If they are stupid enough to believe YOU, your ideas will put THEM in danger.

Folks, no matter how careful you think you are being, there is no safe way to decock a 1911. Don't do it. Leave it cocked and snick the safety. That is why it is there.

Stop listening to people who think they are giving smart advice who are asking you to do something incredibly dumb. Let them do their own stupid stuff. You stay smart.
Speak for yourself, just because you are not competent to follow procedure does not mean others cannot.
 

eye95

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Some more on all this stupidity about decocking a 1911:

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-107079.html

http://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-1891.html

http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/taurus-1911-s/14605-how-do-you-de-cock-pt-1911-a.html

http://www.christiangunowner.com/carryinga1911pistol.html

Let those who think you can safely decock a 1911 do it to their heart's content. If you're wondering whether to ever do it, please, for the love of all that is holy, don't! Do an Internet search for yourself. It takes amazingly little pressure to set off the live round, and, no matter the procedure you use, the very end of the process is lowering the hammer that last little bit.

You will notice that anyone who describes decocking a loaded 1911 advises that you keep it pointed downrange or into an unloading barrel. Even they know that a discharge is possible. Heck, after enough decockings, it is probable. And don't forget to consider where you thumbs will be relative to the slide should your firearm discharge!

However, unless you have a range or a barrel at home and in your vehicle, and if, like me, you live in a State that does not allow you to have a loaded firearm in your car without a CHL, you will be loading and unloading your firearm routinely where there is no loading barrel and no downrange, meaning that you will be decocking it with no safe way to point it. Just leave it cocked and then lock it.

Cocked and locked is the best way to carry a 1911. That is the conclusion of virtually everyone who routinely carries a 1911.

Again, don't take my word for it. Research for yourself.

Just remember, though, there are three ways to learn: (1) Listen to others share their experiences. (2) Watch others gain experience. (3) Piss on the electric fence yourself. We have folks here advocating that you do (3). That is the most painful way to learn. (1) is the least painful.
 

WalkingWolf

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Some more on all this stupidity about decocking a 1911:

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-107079.html

http://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-1891.html

http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/taurus-1911-s/14605-how-do-you-de-cock-pt-1911-a.html

http://www.christiangunowner.com/carryinga1911pistol.html

Let those who think you can safely decock a 1911 do it to their heart's content. If you're wondering whether to ever do it, please, for the love of all that is holy, don't! Do an Internet search for yourself. It takes amazingly little pressure to set off the live round, and, no matter the procedure you use, the very end of the process is lowering the hammer that last little bit.

You will notice that anyone who describes decocking a loaded 1911 advises that you keep it pointed downrange or into an unloading barrel. Even they know that a discharge is possible. Heck, after enough decockings, it is probable. And don't forget to consider where you thumbs will be relative to the slide should your firearm discharge!

However, unless you have a range or a barrel at home and in your vehicle, and if, like me, you live in a State that does not allow you to have a loaded firearm in your car without a CHL, you will be loading and unloading your firearm routinely where there is no loading barrel and no downrange, meaning that you will be decocking it with no safe way to point it. Just leave it cocked and then lock it.

Cocked and locked is the best way to carry a 1911. That is the conclusion of virtually everyone who routinely carries a 1911.

Again, don't take my word for it. Research for yourself.

Just remember, though, there are three ways to learn: (1) Listen to others share their experiences. (2) Watch others gain experience. (3) Piss on the electric fence yourself. We have folks here advocating that you do (3). That is the most painful way to learn. (1) is the least painful.
You have anything other than blogs or forums? You know like facts? Just because YOU cannot do it safely does not mean others cannot. If you cannot, good for you. Don't speak for competent 1911 owners.

BTW you might want to put your ammo on pillows as it takes amazingly little pressure for it to go off. Bwahahahaha!
 
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CDT COX

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I'm all for carrying how you feel comfortable, I carry my sidearm(not 1911) with the safety off. This is achieved by safety on(hammer block), lowering the hammer, then taking off the safety. First pull is a 10lb DA, followed by 4lb SA pulls. This is how I'm comfortable.

My question is what is gained by carrying condition 2 over 1? I feel like it'd be easier to manipulate the safety than manipulate the hammer, although the only experience I've had was my brothers 1911 shooting from condition 1
 

WalkingWolf

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I'm all for carrying how you feel comfortable, I carry my sidearm(not 1911) with the safety off. This is achieved by safety on(hammer block), lowering the hammer, then taking off the safety. First pull is a 10lb DA, followed by 4lb SA pulls. This is how I'm comfortable.

My question is what is gained by carrying condition 2 over 1? I feel like it'd be easier to manipulate the safety than manipulate the hammer, although the only experience I've had was my brothers 1911 shooting from condition 1
It boils down to personal preference. I carry, and have carried a single action revolver most of my life. Even when I carried double action revolvers I still fire single action. I started my carrying in my mid teens with a Colt 1849 revolver. Would you carry it with the hammer back? Or any other DA or SA revolver? That is about as far as I will go with why because to be blunt my personal choice of carry is not any of your business. Or anyone else, I carry the way I want to, it is safe, and effective, and I am much faster than the average handgunner. Some people will just have to get over the fact that not everybody is a sheeple. I don't expect anybody to do what I do, I am an individual. I don't care how others carry, but I do applaud and respect individuals. Sheeple not so much.
 

Small_Arms_Collector

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I carry mine with a full magazine, one in the tube and the hammer down. visually, when someone see it that way, it doesn't set off the "he has a gun!" alarm as much as carrying with the hammer back (this has been my experience) also, for those of you who think that will take excessive time to pull the hammer back, it takes no more time than releasing the "safety", especially when using a military hammer like I do. (I clearanced the beavertail safety to accommodate the military hammer, and it works perfectly, especially when I lower the hammer by hand).
That is a bad idea, basicly you are carrying a gun that is not ready to use. The average gun fight isabout 3 seconds long according to FBI statistics, and that's from initial contact not from when the bullets start flying, given that, and the fact that you will probably be caught by surprise (If your situational awareness is good you can generaly avoid the fight, that you didn't suggests you were caught by surprise.), and the fact that action beats reaction, and your actual time to draw, and fire is closer to 1-2 seconds, you simply do not have time to fiddle with the hammer. If your gun is not ready to go when the fight begins it will likely not be a factor in the fight as you will not employ it.

Additionaly cocking the hammer is a relatively fine motor skill that can be fouled under stress, assuming you remember to do it. It also requires you to break your firing grip to do, unlike the safety, you would have to rotate the gun in your hand bringing it out of position in order to put your thumb over the hammer (a proper 2 handed firing grip on a pistol has both thumbs on the support side facing forward one on top of the other, as opposed to the crossed thumbs of a revolver grip).

The 1911 was designed to be carried with the hammer back.

As far as carrying in condition 0, or 1, you should never rely on a mechanicle safety, if you are practicing proper safety your finger will be off the trigger thus you do not need the safety, in fact the 1911 was originally designed without a manual safety as the M1910 the safety was only added because the military insisted on it (they were transitioning from revolvers, and the officer core who were used to the heavy trigger pull of a revolver didn't trust the lighter trigger of semi-autos) the new model was called the M1911. Most modern pistols don't even have safeties, even single actions like the Springfield XD. When I carry a pistol with a safety I carry it with the safety off.
 
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