Handgun Registration Repeal question

[stainless1911]

john is a busy man. how many of his 692 posts do you think have been wasted on stainless?

You shouldnt be trolling the mods, he's already annoyed, and not just with me. I'll leave this thread alone now.

 

[scot623]

I reload, so I'm well accustomed to measuring things to the thousandth. Find a jury that would convict on +/-.001.

ETA I'd make sure to point out that the gun would be shorter on a cold day, and longer on a hot day.



I do, the magic # is 26".

Are you going to trust your freedom to a court appointed attorney(btw..you still have to pay them.)

 

[Big Gay Al]

Speaking for myself, I've always wanted an M1A1 Carbine. Not that I care about it's overall length, but because as rifles go, it's small and handy. And weighing in at just over 5 lbs., I'm too old to be toting around AKs and SKS stuff, they're too heavy.

That it qualifies as a pistol in MI, is a plus.

 

[Big Gay Al]

However, I am totally in favor of complete repeal of the handgun registration law. The sooner, the better in my humble opinion.

 

[stainless1911]

However, I am totally in favor of complete repeal of the handgun registration law. The sooner, the better in my humble opinion.

Seconded. There is only one possible reason for attaching the change in length to this, and that is to create a gun ban.

I defy them to show me where this will have any affect on any real crime!

 

[Big Gay Al]

Seconded. There is only one possible reason for attaching the change in length to this, and that is to create a gun ban.

I defy them to show me where this will have any affect on any real crime!

Well, based on my reading of the definition of SBRs, it won't affect MI pistols that have folding stocks, like the M1A1 carbine. The only way it would be affected would be in they change the way they measure OAL.

Of course it won't affect real crime, why do they want to do that.

 

[Yooper]

Can you not answer a question? You said rights that were lost, I asked a question of what rights have been lost by current gun owners in MI and you dance and side step again.
Yes registration sucks I get that, but the point that you refuse to get is that causing people to lose rights so others gain is wrong. Right now your point is that I will save a .50 stamp yet give up the ability to carry a useful gun next year, hmmmmmm let me thing about that one. OK FAIL, Next.

Please answer this question: How is what you are doing any different then the people that fight OC?

I think you're missing the point. you state: "but the point that you refuse to get is that causing people to lose RIGHTS so others gain is wrong" (emphasis mine). Under the registration there is NO right to own a handgun or "Michigan Pistol"...none, zero, zip, zilch. If NOBODY in this state has a RIGHT to own a handgun, how can eliminating the registration scheme, which would turn a privilege into a right, be considered taking away a right from anyone? If the government requires you to get a permit to speak, even if once you have that permit it is fairly unregulated, do you still have the freedom of speech? I say no.

 

[Bronson]

members who want me to defenestrate you.

John, you should change your avatar to this:



:lol:

Bronson

 

[stainless1911]

I actually had to go and look that up. :lol:

 

[Xanaseyr]

I should point out, the Kahr arms model AOM150 M1A1 Carbine, has an OAL of 25.75 inches with the folding stock folded. The barrel is 18 inches long, and ATF goes by the OAL with the stock unfolded.

This would still be a "Michigan Pistol" under the new statute.

M1A1 Carbine

ATF measures rifles unfolded when determining SBR status, but does Michigan? Does folding the rifle leave you with a "weapon made from a rifle"?

 

[Big Gay Al]

ATF measures rifles unfolded when determining SBR status, but does Michigan? Does folding the rifle leave you with a "weapon made from a rifle"?

As I understand it, Michigan measures rifles that have folding stocks, with the stock folded. I believe this is how the "Michigan Pistol" got started. And no, that doesn't count as modification. So far as I know.

 

[Xanaseyr]

It's not whether folding a stock would be considered modification that worried me, but whether a folded rifle could be considered "a weapon made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise", or indeed a rifle with an overall length of less than 26 inches.

Overall length is measured folded to determine "pistol" status, but my concern was whether firearms would be measured folded to determine SBR/SBS status.
Apparently they are, which means that folders are either short enough to be a pistol(and also an SBS/SBR) or long enough to not be an SBR/SBS.(and too long to be a pistol)

AG opinion 6280 seems to indicate that the AOM150, while meeting the criteria for a pistol, would also be considered a SBR (and therefore prohibited under 750.222):

A rifle with a barrel of at least 16 inches in length and a stock capable of being contracted or folded to an overall length of less than 26 inches, being fully operable in such contracted or folded condition, is a 'short-barreled rifle' whose sale or possession is prohibited.

 

[Big Gay Al]

It's not whether folding a stock would be considered modification that worried me, but whether a folded rifle could be considered "a weapon made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise", or indeed a rifle with an overall length of less than 26 inches.

Overall length is measured folded to determine "pistol" status, but my concern was whether firearms would be measured folded to determine SBR/SBS status.
Apparently they are, which means that folders are either short enough to be a pistol(and also an SBS/SBR) or long enough to not be an SBR/SBS.(and too long to be a pistol)

AG opinion 6280 seems to indicate that the AOM150, while meeting the criteria for a pistol, would also be considered a SBR (and therefore prohibited under 750.222):

Me thinks Mr. Kelley can't read. As quoted in his own opinion,

MCL 750.222; MSA 28.419, in pertinent part, provides: '(g) 'Short-barreled rifle' means a rifle having 1 or more barrels less than 16 inches in length or a weapon made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if the weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.'

And I have seen M1A1 carbines sold in gun stores in this state, as pistols. The M1A1 is made AS a rifle. I would suggest perhaps contacting an experienced gun dealer, or maybe the AG's office, and see what they say.

 

[Big Gay Al]

The part that bothers me about MCL 750.222, is that it doesn't specify in the law whether OAL is with the stock folded or not, only the MI AG states in his opinion that it should be with the stock folded. Suppose another AG has a different opinion?

The other thing is, there's already a federal law governing what is or isn't an SBR or SBS, so why does Michigan need a law for that? Seems like unnecessary duplication to me.

 

[Big Gay Al]

Actually, now that I think about it, maybe this is a question for MOC's Ask an attorney section.

 

[Super Trucker]

I think you're missing the point. you state: "but the point that you refuse to get is that causing people to lose RIGHTS so others gain is wrong" (emphasis mine). Under the registration there is NO right to own a handgun or "Michigan Pistol"...none, zero, zip, zilch. If NOBODY in this state has a RIGHT to own a handgun, how can eliminating the registration scheme, which would turn a privilege into a right, be considered taking away a right from anyone? If the government requires you to get a permit to speak, even if once you have that permit it is fairly unregulated, do you still have the freedom of speech? I say no.

Excuse the **** out of me. You folks are pushing for 300,000+ to lose the ABILITY to use a useful gun so others don't have to buy a stamp. Is that better for you.

In your lifetime as a MI resident (I don't care about other states), how many MI residents have had a death or serious injury caused by registration, would you be willing to GUARANTEE that somebody will not die or have serious injury once they are no longer able to use useful guns?

Again registration sucks I get that, but this bill is not the answer. You pushing it makes you no different then the FUDDs that want OC banned. They don't OC so it needs to go, most of the FUDDS wanting this don't use MI Pistols so they throw others under the bus. How great that is.

ETA: The point of my arguement is that what you want will not allow more people to carry a gun, what it will do however is eliminate more people from the ability to legaly carry an entire class of guns. Where is the freedom in that?
You don't need a permission slip, but can no longer do something, I mean where is the good in that?

 

[Ezerharden]

In your lifetime as a MI resident (I don't care about other states), how many MI residents have had a death or serious injury caused by registration, would you be willing to GUARANTEE that somebody will not die or have serious injury once they are no longer able to use useful guns?

What makes the "Magic Michigan Pistol" the ONLY useful gun? There are hundreds of other options out there that are useful. This fight on your part is because you do not want to give up, what in reality, is a state invented class of firearm. Michigan is, as far as I know, the only state that has this mythical beast that renders it's carriers invincible above and beyond any other firearm out there.

BTW, if I recall correctly you posted about getting out of your car and facing a bear. Unless you parked in the bear area of a zoo, Wayne county has no 4 legged bears.

 

[Big Gay Al]

Excuse the **** out of me. You folks are pushing for 300,000+ to lose the ABILITY to use a useful gun so others don't have to buy a stamp. Is that better for you.

Yeah, that works for me.

 

[Super Trucker]

What makes the "Magic Michigan Pistol" the ONLY useful gun? There are hundreds of other options out there that are useful. This fight on your part is because you do not want to give up, what in reality, is a state invented class of firearm. Michigan is, as far as I know, the only state that has this mythical beast that renders it's carriers invincible above and beyond any other firearm out there.

BTW, if I recall correctly you posted about getting out of your car and facing a bear. Unless you parked in the bear area of a zoo, Wayne county has no 4 legged bears.

You did not recall correctly. I did not say "I" got out of a car, go back and reread before spouting off.

Are you willing to bet on the 500 you were talking about earlier vs a MI pistol on accuracy, speed, mag capacity and see which is better? Have you ever been making a delivery and had multiple people hijack your load? This happened in Wayne county last year as well as other parts of the state. My insurance agent said there were over 800 hijacking last year nationwide? Maybe we should ban deliveries?

Many people use the "Magic MI pistol", sorry you feel the need to throw them under the bus to save a stamp.

I guess saving .50 on a stamp so you can be "free" to not be able to use an entire class of guns must make sense to somebody.

 

[Ezerharden]

You did not recall correctly. I did not say "I" got out of a car, go back and reread before spouting off.

Are you willing to bet on the 500 you were talking about earlier vs a MI pistol on accuracy, speed, mag capacity and see which is better? Have you ever been making a delivery and had multiple people hijack your load? This happened in Wayne county last year as well as other parts of the state. My insurance agent said there were over 800 hijacking last year nationwide? Maybe we should ban deliveries?

Many people use the "Magic MI pistol", sorry you feel the need to throw them under the bus to save a stamp.

I guess saving .50 on a stamp so you can be "free" to not be able to use an entire class of guns must make sense to somebody.

Ah that makes more sense now, I didn't realize you were talking about hijackers, that really changes things because we all know that any normal pistol ammo bounces right off them making the Michigan Pistol the only defense against them :banghead:

And no, I have never made a deliver and been hijacked. I have however worked in security for over 17 years, and I don't mean sit at a desk and write down names security, i mean armed, watch out for drug dealers type of security, mostly at night in some fairly bad areas. Normal pistol worked fine for me. Most would be trouble makers see the gun and decide they have more pressing issues elsewhere. Doesn't matter what gun you carry, looking down the muzzle of one makes it look huge. I have also served summons, and twice was shot at. Both perp's were arrested, I was fortunately unhurt, and got away without firing any rounds.

So your other points, Accuracy. Are you defending yourself or playing sniper? Most pistols are accurate in normal combat ranges, say 15 yards on the outside. Speed? Not sure what you mean by speed. How fast it can be deployed on a target or muzzle velocity of the round. Mag capacity? My Glock can handle a magazine of 19 rounds I believe (never bought one so not sure of the top of my head) and if you can't stop a threat with that many rounds maybe you should start delivering in an M1A1 Tank.

This is not about a 50 cent stamp, it is about getting rid of one infringement at a time. You want to keep your state created firearm, lobby for it. Like people lobbied for the repeal of registration.