Handgun Registration Repeal question

[SpringerXDacp]

I dont have the necessary tools or experience to do such a thing. Many others do. Consider the precision required in things like engines, computers, firearms and many other items. Saying that it cannot be done is naive.

*Sigh* You still don't understand.....

I'll try a different angle: If you cut a 2x4 and cut it at a length of 26 inches and had 20 people, independently, measure your cut, you'd get 19 or 20 different measurements at best. Most likely, they'd be all within a tenth or two, but the fact remains that not all measurements made independently would be recorded as exactly 26 inches.

 

[stainless1911]

Now that I understand. In a case such as this, it would be best to have the item measured by a certified measure taken by a technician. There are official weights and measures for things that need to be precise.

Even your home reloader measures things consistently. It is very common to measure things to the thousandth in reloading. Weights are the same, for instance. There are a little more than 15 grains in a gram. Reloaders typically measure to the tenth of a grain.

Im really not trying to be argumentative either. It's just a conversation.

I don't think that a person should start screwing with the law by making such a thing, but it could be done.

I do think the lawmakers should be made to read a thread like this, so that they can see the mess they create, and the futility of their efforts. This has nothing to do with crime. :banghead:

 

[Big Gay Al]

I do think the lawmakers should be made to read a thread like this, so that they can see the mess they create, and the futility of their efforts. This has nothing to do with crime. :banghead:

The part of this whole situation that gets me, ATFE has guidelines in place to define different types of firearms. WHY does Michigan have to have a separate set, that varies with such a thing as whether or not a folding stock is open or closed? I mean, if Michigan wants to make SBRs and SBSs illegal, fine, but, what's wrong with using federal guidelines?

 

[Shadow Bear]

I dont have the necessary tools or experience to do such a thing. Many others do. Consider the precision required in things like engines, computers, firearms and many other items. Saying that it cannot be done is naive.

No, its not naive- it's precise....

It has been scientifically proven that the method of measurement, the individual performing the measurement and the tool used all individually add a degree of variability to the measurement process, and I can be sure that law enforcement will not have performed a Measurement System Evaluation to determine the reliability & repeat-ability of their system.

Take this from a certified Lean Six Sigma Blackbelt & Senior QA Scientist; There is no 'absolute' when measuring ANYTHING.

Add to this mix, the variation from the materials themselves. Wood swells with humidity, causing variability over different conditions. Combine this with the coefficient of thermal expansion, which will affect the length of metal parts (e.g. barrel & receiver, up to the point where it is fastened to the stock). On a hot, muggy day, your firearm will be significantly longer then a cold, dry winter's day. Then add the lack of precision when hacking off a bit of the stock; saws are notoriously inaccurate. The variation will put you in jail, and cause you to expend thousands of dollars to justify a few thousandths of an inch.

Couple this with the fact you already have a bullseye on your back from law enforcement, why give them 'ammo' to jam you up?

BTW, they are reading this, and waiting.....

 

[DetroitBiker]

 

[DrTodd]

No, its not naive- it's precise....

It has been scientifically proven that the method of measurement, the individual performing the measurement and the tool used all individually add a degree of variability to the measurement process, and I can be sure that law enforcement will not have performed a Measurement System Evaluation to determine the reliability & repeat-ability of their system.

Take this from a certified Lean Six Sigma Blackbelt & Senior QA Scientist; There is no 'absolute' when measuring ANYTHING.

Add to this mix, the variation from the materials themselves. Wood swells with humidity, causing variability over different conditions. Combine this with the coefficient of thermal expansion, which will affect the length of metal parts (e.g. barrel & receiver, up to the point where it is fastened to the stock). On a hot, muggy day, your firearm will be significantly longer then a cold, dry winter's day. Then add the lack of precision when hacking off a bit of the stock; saws are notoriously inaccurate. The variation will put you in jail, and cause you to expend thousands of dollars to justify a few thousandths of an inch.

Couple this with the fact you already have a bullseye on your back from law enforcement, why give them 'ammo' to jam you up?

BTW, they are reading this, and waiting.....

I was going to post something regarding the issue of "precision" and "standard error of measurement"; you stated the issue much better than I could have. Thank you.

 

[Shadow Bear]

I prefer to think of it as the 'bolt face'...:lol:

 

[Big Gay Al]

I prefer to think of it as the 'bolt face'...:lol:

I am not going to comment on that at all. :banana:

 

[Big Gay Al]

Ok, now I'm totally confused. I just found this on GunsAmerica. And it's for sale from a Michigan dealer.

 

[Super Trucker]

They aren't even discussing the proper bill that the OP was referencing anymore. Stainless and Super Trucker have completely derailed this thread to discuss a bill that has already passed and become law.

The bill in the op if passed will make MI pistols obsolete. If it does not pass those currently owned will be grand fathered.

 

[stainless1911]

The bill in the op if passed will make MI pistols obsolete. If it does pass those currently owned will be grand fathered.

Supposedly. Who wants to be the test case?

 

[Super Trucker]

Super Trucker is ranting about, and you were also discussing, the MI Pistol changes which have already become law and go into effect by 1/1/13.

No **** on what you just said. If registration repeal happens, the grand gathered guns might become worthless.

 

[Super Trucker]

WRONG


Give it a rest. MI Pistols are gone and we now follow the federal definition of a pistol like the 49 other states. The bill has passed already and you ranting about it won't change anything.

I am talking about the current bill.

 

[Super Trucker]

It's not "buying a stamp" It's seeking government permission (when the govt determines is a good time to ask for permission), and passing a government test (when the govt determines it's a good time to take that test), and then bringing your permission slip back to the govt, or sending it in (hope it doesn't get lost) through the mail. Then, if someone wants to borrow a pistol / "michigan pistol" from you, they need to go get permission from the govt, pass the govt test, and send in the govt slip. Then, when they're done and return it to you, you have to do the same process all over.

Anyone pushing for registration repeal is the complete opposite of the FUDDs. They want gun control, we want freedom.

"The point of my arguement is that what you want will not allow more people to carry a gun, what it will do however is eliminate more people from the ability to legaly carry an entire class of guns. Where is the freedom in that?" If the very essence of owning something requires permission from the government, passing a test, and then giving the government all the details about what you own, there is no freedom in that, irregardless of what the govt ALLOWS you to do.

You want freedom to own a gun you can not use, even though you currently can. I would call that anti, removing the ability to carry a gun isn't pro gun.
As I understand it you can not continue registration if registration is repealed so the grandfather guns might be useless. Please explain the freedom in that?
If asking permission allows me to defend myself and go home, explain the down side. You are saying I shouldn't ask permission which will raise the odds of NOT going home, I see all sorts of fail in that thinking.

 

[Super Trucker]

Actually the problem causing most security officers to die or become severely hurt is that the wear a uniform, and sadly most are not armed due to insurance liability issues that the clients don't want to pay extra to cover. A tad bit different than a scrap yard, although I did cover a contract at one of those for a few months, and the biggest threat I had was the raccoons. Only had a few trespassers at night who left rather quickly when they saw that there was security there. I am still trying to understand what threat you are faced with that a regular pistol will not handle. Do your hijackers wear body armor?

Were the few months in the scrap yard recently?
I know delivery people that have died in the last few years.
It isn't 1 guy robbing people using a 22 anymore.
People up north have animal threats. I am not sure what you are not understanding.
Are you certain you will be able to survive 5 guys with long guns and you with only a glock? I know a person that did not.

 

[Venator]

Ok, now I'm totally confused. I just found this on GunsAmerica. And it's for sale from a Michigan dealer.

You can still buy them until Jan. 1st. Any guns bought before Jan 1st are grandfathered and you would need to have the I-60 form to prove you bought it before then.

Whether you will be able to conceal them after that date is what I don't know. My thought would be you should be able to.

 

[Big Gay Al]

You can still buy them until Jan. 1st. Any guns bought before Jan 1st are grandfathered and you would need to have the I-60 form to prove you bought it before then.

Whether you will be able to conceal them after that date is what I don't know. My thought would be you should be able to.

I understand that part, but if it's dimensions are the same as the more modern Kahr/Thompson/Auto-Ordnance AOM150, wouldn't be a Michigan Short Barreled Rifle instead? FYI, the AOM150's OAL with the stock folded is listed as 25.75 inches.

 

[TheQ]

No, its not naive- it's precise....

It has been scientifically proven that the method of measurement, the individual performing the measurement and the tool used all individually add a degree of variability to the measurement process, and I can be sure that law enforcement will not have performed a Measurement System Evaluation to determine the reliability & repeat-ability of their system.

Take this from a certified Lean Six Sigma Blackbelt & Senior QA Scientist; There is no 'absolute' when measuring ANYTHING.

Add to this mix, the variation from the materials themselves. Wood swells with humidity, causing variability over different conditions. Combine this with the coefficient of thermal expansion, which will affect the length of metal parts (e.g. barrel & receiver, up to the point where it is fastened to the stock). On a hot, muggy day, your firearm will be significantly longer then a cold, dry winter's day. Then add the lack of precision when hacking off a bit of the stock; saws are notoriously inaccurate. The variation will put you in jail, and cause you to expend thousands of dollars to justify a few thousandths of an inch.

Couple this with the fact you already have a bullseye on your back from law enforcement, why give them 'ammo' to jam you up?

BTW, they are reading this, and waiting.....

This post sums up what I was trying to say in a dozen posts earlier in this thread. Well done!

 

[SpringerXDacp]

I understand that part, but if it's dimensions are the same as the more modern Kahr/Thompson/Auto-Ordnance AOM150, wouldn't be a Michigan Short Barreled Rifle instead? FYI, the AOM150's OAL with the stock folded is listed as 25.75 inches.

Even though the AOM150 has an 18 inch barrel (16 inches required for rifles), it's still an SBR due to the OAL being less than 26 inches. The AOM160 however, has an OAL of 27.375 inches with the stock folded.

 

[Big Gay Al]

Even though the AOM150 has an 18 inch barrel (16 inches required for rifles), it's still an SBR due to the OAL being less than 26 inches. The AOM160 however, has an OAL of 27.375 inches with the stock folded.

I saw that, when I was searching for info on the AOM150. I've still not received any answer to my inquiries on whether or not the AOM150 is banned in Michigan for being a "Michigan SBR." And as I pointed out in a previous post, a MI FFL dealer is selling an Inland M1A1, which I would presume has the same dimensions as the AOM150.

I would imagine anyone in MI who would buy this weapon, would have to register it as a pistol. At least.