The Tale of Henrico - Chapter 2 in a Ferry Tale - Arrested for following the law

[marshaul]

I think it also goes to intent - the two concepts are joined at the hip....or at least should be.

I agree. Absent the most indisputable negligence (which generally ought to be only tortious), mens rea ought to be a fundamental component to any criminal conviction.

I was speaking in very general terms. As it happens here, there is no victim in the first place. Scouser's intent was, presumably, to move his handgun from one place to the other. I'm unable to fathom how this picks anybody's pocket or breaks their bone, so anybody concerning themselves with his intent probably needs to find something to do.

 

[HeroHog]

Louisiana Ext-pat checking in after donating! It always saddens me to see this sort of thing happen to such a fine group of people and you can always count on my assistance when it happens guys!

 

[Skeptic]

We are hot with Paypal - set up, verified and confirmed

Thanks for setting this up - incoming.

 

[1245A Defender]

Well,,,

I am sorry that now, because of their requests, this thread has become fractured!
There is a thread just for donations in the Hot Topic thread.
There is a new thread asking if folks want to go to the race in Richmond, but associated with this case.
And folks seem to be making donations to this case in an unrelated thread about traffic stops that
turn into fishing for guns in cars, after the ticket is issued.

Sooo I offered in post #8 to send 100$, And I did it!!!

But still its a pain to see soooo many threads dealing with this one terrible travisty!

Go getem Scouser, Go getem User, and someone give Logan a hug!

 

[peter nap]

I am sorry that now, because of their requests, this thread has become fractured!
There is a thread just for donations in the Hot Topic thread.
There is a new thread asking if folks want to go to the race in Richmond, but associated with this case.
And folks seem to be making donations to this case in an unrelated thread about traffic stops that
turn into fishing for guns in cars, after the ticket is issued.

Sooo I offered in post #8 to send 100$, And I did it!!!

But still its a pain to see soooo many threads dealing with this one terrible travisty!

Go getem Scouser, Go getem User, and someone give Logan a hug!

Actually there are three separate issues unfolding now Defender. You're right! The only one requiring donations is Scouser but there is also a lawsuit that was filed a couple of days ago that's a similar thing in another venue and a member here....Can't say more than that right now.

There is a third lawsuit being prepared that is going to be a game changer...Can't say anymore about that either.

It's hard to keep everything seperate buy we'll try.

 

[Grapeshot]

I am sorry that now, because of their requests, this thread has become fractured!
There is a thread just for donations in the Hot Topic thread.
There is a new thread asking if folks want to go to the race in Richmond, but associated with this case.
And folks seem to be making donations to this case in an unrelated thread about traffic stops that
turn into fishing for guns in cars, after the ticket is issued.

Sooo I offered in post #8 to send 100$, And I did it!!!

But still its a pain to see soooo many threads dealing with this one terrible travisty!

Go getem Scouser, Go getem User, and someone give Logan a hug!

Then you're saying that this is getting a lot of attention? Good!

The Hot Topic posting was originated by an out-of-state advocate. It was decided that it was not a duplicate thread as the intent was to expand the news coverage and donation sources beyond the Virginia sub-forum - it has done that very effectively and with our appreciation.

General comments on this and similar multiple Va. cases working their way through the system may be posted on the following thread: The-Empire-Strikes-Back! The sticky has been removed from that thread.

There is no thread regarding race tickets and donations - it was a carefully worded post in this thread.

This very high interest case and a link for donations may show up in other threads, other sub-forum/states, and in multiple other sites beyond OCDO as word spreads. People are incensed and they will respond accordingly.....and they are!

 

[Grapeshot]

Just to make it easier to find:

Paper and electronic checks payable to:
Virginia Legal Defense
P.O. Box 100
Broad Run, VA 20137
For Account of Graham C.

or

 

[user]

Not all offenses are crimes against the the commonwealth. On a criminal complaint, a citizen can affix their name as the complainant. If John Q Public gets a warrant for a trespassing neighbor, then the commonwealth does not have a dog in the fight. The complainant prosecutes the case in court.

When an officer does it, as an agent of a local or state agency, and sworn to uphold state laws, the commonwealth becomes the complainant - in some instances. Crimes prosecuted by the CWA are usually the cases the commonwealth holds near and dear to its heart - all felonies, weapons offenses, drug offenses, certain traffic offenses.

The commonwealth is not a complaint if the officer is charging someone under a local ordinance.

If scouser was charged under the state code, then the commonwealth is the complainant since it is the "victim" as it is considered a "crime against society."

Negatory, good buddy. The definition of a "crime" is an offense against the dignity of the sovereign, which she will punish in her own name. Once a summons, warrant, or indictment has been issued, regardless of who the complainant might have been, the action is Commonwealth of Virginia (or some political subdivision thereof) v. the defendant. The complaining witness is just that; merely a witness. It's the Commonwealth's case, and the Commonwealth's Attorney (or county, city, or town attorney in some cases) is completely in charge. The complainant has absolutely no say in the matter at that point.

Also, the procedure is this: if the charge is a felony, only the Commonwealth's Attorney can approve a warrant to be issued by the magistrate, although the C/w can use a grand jury to indict someone on either a felony or misdemeanor (or both). In cases of misdemeanors, the complainant is either a cop or ordinary citizen. Citizen complaints must be in writing and sworn. Cops' complaints can be oral, but must also be sworn.

One thing that really bothers me is that cops routinely use the oral complaint thing to prevent the real complainant from having to write a statement which must then be served along with a copy of the warrant. So they talk to some bozo, don't really do any "investigation" at all, then go to the magistrate (as apparently happened in this case), and swear out the complaint orally themselves. Here's the thing that bothers me: when the cop is under oath, he has to be stating facts within the scope of his personal knowledge. If the "fact" is, "I did an investigation", then that really has to be a fact, and if all he did was get a whacked out version from some buddy of his, then that's not an "investigation". Even then, the magistrate ought to be asking someone with personal knowledge of the facts to make a statement under oath, otherwise, the warrant is baseless.

I feel strongly that the statute ought to be amended. All statements should be in writing and ought to be based on the complaint of a witness with personal knowledge of the facts. If a cop is going to be the complainant, then he should be required to actually know what happened before he makes a statement under oath. It would be a great benefit to the Commonwealth generally if some political pressure were brought to bear on that issue.

 

[user]

As to my comments about ongoing litigation

Please keep in mind that during the Culpeper cop's trial (which is still not over, btw), someone filed an anonymous ethics complaint against me with the Virginia State Bar consisting merely of a newspaper article with the title, "Harmon-Wright Defense Attorney Blogs Profusely". The article referred to some contributions I'd made to this web-forum.

Ordinarily, the Bar doesn't take anonymous complaints, and they don't entertain complaints made during the course of litigation and for the purpose of intimidating attorneys engaged in litigation. They routinely dismiss complaints for violation of any of those rules. In this case, they not only did not dismiss, but eventually referred the matter to "an investigator". No idea who the "investigator" is, or what that person plans to "investigate".

I have the sneaking suspicion that someone within the Bar itself who is opposed to the idea that citizens should be able to defend themselves, their homes, and their families is the source of this "complaint" and that's why the ordinary rules don't apply. What they're really trying to do is "get" me because of my efforts of advocacy on behalf of such citizens. They did something similar a while back against a Richmond lawyer named Horace F. Hunter. Hunter is politically conservative and actually had a "blog" in which he was pretty clear about his views on political subjects. The Bar said that his having discussed certain cases he'd been involved in were "lawyer advertising" and tried to shut him down. He fought back, and is still doing so as near as I can tell. This has taken an enormous amount of time and energy on his part. It would appear to me that someone with a socialist/liberal agenda has acquired a position of power within the Bar and is using that power to attack people with different political views.

An any rate, I will probably be less communicative about the ongoing status of cases I'm involved in for the near future. That's because I have been intimidated with respect to making public statements of a political nature in violation of my rights under the U.S. and Virginia Constitutions, and in particular, I feel that I have to "keep my head down" with respect to my participation in public discussions regarding ongoing cases and the actions of public officials. This has clearly been done for the purpose of limiting my political effectiveness in dealing with people of similar interests, and it has worked. I feel that I have been injured and that the public with whom I share opinions have been injured. The climate for free expression of political speech has been injured, and that was the purpose of this attack.

 

[TFred]

I feel strongly that the statute ought to be amended. All statements should be in writing and ought to be based on the complaint of a witness with personal knowledge of the facts. If a cop is going to be the complainant, then he should be required to actually know what happened before he makes a statement under oath. It would be a great benefit to the Commonwealth generally if some political pressure were brought to bear on that issue.

If this case turns out as we all expect it to, it may very well be an excellent catalyst for pushing exactly that sort of a change among the legislators.

As in, "We desperately need to change the law, and this RAILROADING IS EXACTLY WHY..."

TFred

 

[AFCop]

Negatory, good buddy. The definition of a "crime" is an offense against the dignity of the sovereign, which she will punish in her own name. Once a summons, warrant, or indictment has been issued, regardless of who the complainant might have been, the action is Commonwealth of Virginia (or some political subdivision thereof) v. the defendant. The complaining witness is just that; merely a witness. It's the Commonwealth's case, and the Commonwealth's Attorney (or county, city, or town attorney in some cases) is completely in charge. The complainant has absolutely no say in the matter at that point.

Also, the procedure is this: if the charge is a felony, only the Commonwealth's Attorney can approve a warrant to be issued by the magistrate, although the C/w can use a grand jury to indict someone on either a felony or misdemeanor (or both). In cases of misdemeanors, the complainant is either a cop or ordinary citizen. Citizen complaints must be in writing and sworn. Cops' complaints can be oral, but must also be sworn.

One thing that really bothers me is that cops routinely use the oral complaint thing to prevent the real complainant from having to write a statement which must then be served along with a copy of the warrant. So they talk to some bozo, don't really do any "investigation" at all, then go to the magistrate (as apparently happened in this case), and swear out the complaint orally themselves. Here's the thing that bothers me: when the cop is under oath, he has to be stating facts within the scope of his personal knowledge. If the "fact" is, "I did an investigation", then that really has to be a fact, and if all he did was get a whacked out version from some buddy of his, then that's not an "investigation". Even then, the magistrate ought to be asking someone with personal knowledge of the facts to make a statement under oath, otherwise, the warrant is baseless.

I feel strongly that the statute ought to be amended. All statements should be in writing and ought to be based on the complaint of a witness with personal knowledge of the facts. If a cop is going to be the complainant, then he should be required to actually know what happened before he makes a statement under oath. It would be a great benefit to the Commonwealth generally if some political pressure were brought to bear on that issue.

They have a word for something like that, don't they? I believe it is called hearsay...

 

[razor_baghdad]

Slapp

They have a word for something like that, don't they? I believe it is called hearsay...

IANAL, but I see textbook SLAPP:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_public_participation

user? (btw - thanks for what you do!!)

 

[skidmark]

Originally Posted by user

An any rate, I will probably be less communicative about the ongoing status of cases I'm involved in for the near future. That's because I have been intimidated with respect to making public statements of a political nature in violation of my rights under the U.S. and Virginia Constitutions, and in particular, I feel that I have to "keep my head down" with respect to my participation in public discussions regarding ongoing cases and the actions of public officials. This has clearly been done for the purpose of limiting my political effectiveness in dealing with people of similar interests, and it has worked. I feel that I have been injured and that the public with whom I share opinions have been injured. The climate for free expression of political speech has been injured, and that was the purpose of this attack.

Shouldn't your posting instead be counting towards the hours of pro bono work attorneys are "supposed" to "volunteer" for?

I've always look at your posts and an opportunity for the layman/hobby lawyer to learn more about the application of precedent (case law) and the evolution of how the courts interpret the law.

Let us know when it is time to start sending funds to the user legal defense fund.

stay safe.

 

[wrearick]

Just to make it easier to find:

Paper and electronic checks payable to:
Virginia Legal Defense
P.O. Box 100
Broad Run, VA 20137
For Account of Graham C.

Programed the payment in billpayer tonight, should arrive on Friday. I am willing to pay to help USER and others make THEM pay! Hang in there Scouser we support you!

 

[Grapeshot]

Take your pick. There are several ways to make a difference and show your support. Very much appreciate those that already jumped on board and shared what they could. Times are tough, yet you choose to make the sacrifice with your generosity. Have to admit that I am in awe of this "merry band of brothers" and sisters. You make me proud.

Paper and electronic checks payable to:
Virginia Legal Defense
P.O. Box 100
Broad Run, VA 20137
For Account of Graham C.

or

 

[MKEgal]

She knows what its like to ride the rails of injustice...
she is one tough lady, I admire her strength and tenacity.

Depends on which side of the 'tenacity' you're on...
Some would say stubborn, pigheaded, bullheaded, obstinate, obdurate, etc.
(Muleheaded, even... now how'd they know I was born in the Show-me state?)

But I wouldn't have come through anywhere near as well without support from so many people.
So show your support to this latest victim!!!
Monetary if you can, emotional if you can't.

I have been intimidated with respect to making public statements of a political nature in violation of my rights ...
The climate for free expression of political speech has been injured, and that was the purpose of this attack.

:cuss: :cuss: :cuss:

 

[Grapeshot]

--snipped--
But I wouldn't have come through anywhere near as well without support from so many people.
Soshow your support to this latest victim!!!
Monetary if you can, emotional if you can't.

Both important and from each according to their ability.

The value of a hug or handshake cannot be underestimated....and yes Virginia gentlemen do hug/embrace, often accompanied with a slap on the back and an encouraging word.

No man stands alone.......not on our watch.
Not excluding you ladies - your strength, fortitude and resiliency exceeds mere man's in many ways.

 

[Fuller Malarkey]

Would it be out of line to maybe use this thread to describe what expenses a person facing this kind of legal battle needs to consider? "Expensive" is about all I know. What are the unforeseen costs, those a person unfamiliar with the process might face?

For example, in this case, are attorney fees being covered by donations, or are donations for legal fees?

Is there a ballpark round dollar number that one might be faced with if they found themselves in a similar situation?

 

[Grapeshot]

Would it be out of line to maybe use this thread to describe what expenses a person facing this kind of legal battle needs to consider? "Expensive" is about all I know. What are the unforeseen costs, those a person unfamiliar with the process might face?

For example, in this case, are attorney fees being covered by donations, or are donations for legal fees?

Is there a ballpark round dollar number that one might be faced with if they found themselves in a similar situation?

Thousands. In this case attorney fees/legal fees will be covered somehow, some way - you have my assurance.

Tough question on which to put a cost - sooo much depends on the charge(s) and goals of those pursuing prosecution.

Some typical or at least should be anticipated:
Bond or bail fees, replacing personal property held as evidence, bailing vehicle out if towed, estimated legal fees for what (?) duration - consider motion hearings, postponements, discovery, cost of filing and serving subpenas, court reporter. A simple case (are any of them simple) with the accused being totally innocent of any ill intent could easily run $5K or more. That only considers that the trial does not go to appeal which may be necessary on technicalities. At which point an additional 2 to 2 1/2 times that might be required......actually the sky is the limit.

There are other "expenses" to consider - is your livelihood impacted, the tranquility of your family/personal life, the damaged to your good name/reputation, will you lose your RKBA, will your guts be wrenched out worrying and wondering, will your fair weather friends shun you?

I know that was probably more of an answer than you expected, but IMO there is no average/typical/normal total cost and most people will not have enough in their piggy bank........OTOH the Commonwealth has unlimited funds with which to hang you.

Therein rests the hope and desire that you will roll over and plead to lesser charges. Should you? Only you can decide. To do so may accept a life long sentence - a permanent brand though and you may suffer some of the same losses.

So why do we put ourselves in that position? We don't, again...we don't! Unnecessary laws that punish the law abiding do, especially when wielded by those with an anti freedom/liberty loving agenda.

What is your life worth? The lives of your loved ones? When will you need the tool guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment?

Rant is NOT over :exclaim:

 

[Grapeshot]

We will return you to the thread's regularly scheduled programing after this commercial break:

Paper and electronic checks payable to:
Virginia Legal Defense
P.O. Box 100
Broad Run, VA 20137
For Account of Graham C.

or