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Do you carry your 1911 in "condition 0?"

Jeffytune

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When I carry my 1911A1, I carry in Condition 2, I feel quite comfortable to carry this was as i trained to drag my thumb over the hammer as I bring the pistol to the firing position.

15 years, no accidental discharges.

I am not saying the way you carry is right of wrong, you need to carry it the way you have trained for, and are most comfortable with.
 

old dog

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I've been around guns and gun people all my long life and I'm an unreconstructed 1911 fan.

Having said that, I have never known anyone to carry one in this "Condition 0" and in fact never heard it referred to. It seems to me foolish in the extreme.

Would anyone carry a revolver, single- or double-action, in this condition?

I can imagine Gunny Welles' reaction!
 

jayspapa

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I have carried the 1911 off and on for many years( since mid 1970's ) . Colt combat commander , ColtGold cup , and now a Kimber tactical ultra II . I have carried via shoulder holster , belt holster ,and IWB .

I have always carried cocked and locked and I have NEVER had the safety come off. I have carried while hunting , walking through brush , jumping ditches , crawling over fallen trees , etc.....

For those who carry with the hammer down on a loaded chamber ,all I can say is try that at a training range like Gun site , Sigarms , or even Front site . No matter what you say ,thumbing the hammer on a 1911 as you draw is unsafe . While safeties have been known to fail , as long as the trigger is covered by the holster and you keep your finger off the trigger , the gun won't go BANG!
 

para_org

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SpringerXDacp wrote:
If I decide to carry my 1911 I start out in condition 1. However, after getting in and out of my vehicle, moving around, bending over, etc. the manual safety usually gets moved to the off position. I'm not concerned at all about this due to the additional safety features, such as, the grip safety and trigger. Of course, the best safety feature is the one between your ears.

With the manual safety off two things must happen in order for the 1911 to go BANG.1) is that the grip safety must be depressed and, 2) the trigger must be depressed as well. If you are able to depress the trigger without disengaging the grip safety then you should not be carrying the gun until the problem has been resolved.

I fail to understand thedifferences with carrying a 1911 in condition 0and carrying my Glock with one in the pipe.
Yes you are right... it is VERY much like carrying a Glock.

However that also begs the question about carrying a Glock and assuming it is safe to do so;

- It is important to consider that there is no such thing as a mechanism inside the trigger guard being a safety, as the issue of what a safety is involves something to preclude or prevent a discharge if the trigger is inadvertantly rendered moot or engaged somehow in error. (i.e. Your coat tail inside your holster, or even just a very small twig can actuate the trigger, so a trigger mounted safety is not a safety.)

** Or put another way, you cannot have the trigger made inoperable by using the trigger to do so.
 

Sonora Rebel

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Jeffytune wrote:
When I carry my 1911A1, I carry in Condition 2, I feel quite comfortable to carry this was as i trained to drag my thumb over the hammer as I bring the pistol to the firing position.

15 years, no accidental discharges.

I am not saying the way you carry is right of wrong, you need to carry it the way you have trained for, and are most comfortable with.
First auto pistol I ever fired was a 1911A1 .45acp back in 1957.My 'instructor' was a former S/Sgt 'tanker' who'd seen much action in N. Africa and Europe. Long beforeI (or just about anyone else)ever heard of Jeff Cooper or his 'Conditions'. Three years later... I'm in the Navy, periodically standin' armed watches with... the 1911A1. OK... so prior to that... I (and others) haf'ta go to the range and qualify. But... I'm an AO workin' outt'a the armory. We 'owned' nearly every .45 on the station.

At NO TIME was 'Cocked and Locked' a method of carry. Cocked and Locked was used only if you ceased firing prior to expending the magazine. We carried one in the pipe on half-cock notch. First round was thumbing the hammer... same with any SA.

When John Browning invented that pistol, it replaced the SAA .45 for the Army. So... you have a generation of 'thumbers' by instinct. That thumb safety's even called the 'slide lock' 'cause that's what it does. The M1912/M1916 flap holsters were the original series holsters for the M1911A1 pistols. The M3 shoulder holster for the 1911 pistol has a rather long strap retainer with a spring lock/stud fastener. With the pistol 'cocked and locked'... the strapintersects the hammer and the slide. All 'thumbbreak' holsters will do the same. This causes the gun to 'hang' when drawing, particularly when the strap is wider than the space between the cocked hammer and slide. This is not a desirable situation.

Fast forward Vietnam... one in the pipe on half-cock notch. I have never heard of, or experienced an ND/AD when carried in this manner. This is the same method used with a Winchester .30-30 lever gun. 'Seems there are LOT"S of AD/ND's with Glocks... 'least one's ya hear about. (Yet the Glock guys will tell 1911 types how to carry.... Hmmm?)

Yes... you have one in the tube and must manually decock the thing. It's not that difficult with minimal manual dexterity. Hold the hammer, depress the grip safety and pull the trigger. Ease the hammer down, then back to 1/2 cock notch. In general parlance... this was known as the 1/4 cock notch due to the length of hammer travel. When John Browning invented this pistol... common sense had not yet been replaced by (gasp) absolute no-risk safety litigation.

At any rate... the hammer may be thumbed easy enuff... and the grip safety is still engaged. Or... you can hot dog it 'n fan the hammer with your left if you feel lucky.

Jeff Cooper made a lotta money sellin' books... but he did say:


Jeff Cooper's CommentariesPreviously Gunsite GossipVol. 1, No. 1 June 1993
[/code]
"Lowering the hammer with the thumb is always safe if the operator is safe. Of course, if you must assume that the operator is inept, then decocking with the thumb is not safe. We dinosaurs prefer to put our trust in our own abilities rather than in any reliability of a mechanism which can fail."

Then... there's this... fitting to OCDO:


"The society of late twentieth century America is perhaps the first in human history where most grown men do not routinely bear arms on their persons and boys are not regularly raised from childhood to learn skill in the use of some kind of weapon, either for community or personal defense- club or spear, broadsword or long bow, rifle or Bowie knife. It also happens to be one of the rudest and crudest societies in history, having jubilantly swept most of the etiquette of speech, table, dress, hospitality, fairness, deference to authority and the relations of male and female and child and elder under the fraying and filthy carpet of politically convenient illusions. With little fear of physical reprisal Americans can be as loud, gross, disrespectful, pushy, and negligent as they please. If more people carried rapiers at their belts, or revolvers on their hips, It is a fair bet you would be able to go to a movie and enjoy he dialogue from the screen without having to endure the small talk, family gossip and assorted bodily noises that many theater audiences these days regularly emit. Today, discourtesy is commonplace precisely because there is no price to pay for it."

Samuel Francis


I suppose I have been fortunate to some extent in learning from boyhood to use weapons (including the sword), ride a horse and familiar with other useful mechanical skills. Routinely bearing arms is a natural as puttin' my boots on. I carry my 1911 in a manner as familiar to me as anything I can think of... and as ergonomically advantageous asI have found to be practical.
 

JT

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Cocked and locked (condition 1) is the way the 1911 was designed to be carried and to me makes perfect sense.The trigger on asingle actionpistol generally requires lesspull and travelto fire than a double action. Consequently you would have a greater chance for a ND if the trigger snags for any reason and the gun was in condition 0. Granted this would only happen if the grip safety were depressed but most of usgrip the gunnormally anytime we holster or unholster.Condition 1 removes that risk anddoesn't slow down the presentation of the weapon when needed.
 

Sonora Rebel

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Hard to find... (but here 'tis): http://www.allbusiness.com/manufacturing/nonmetallic-mineral-product/4098097-1.html
"Testing continued over the next few years as the Army brass tried to decide between a traditional revolver and the largely unproven pistol. A Cavalry Board commentary at the time stated, "The automatic pistol has no advantage over the double-action revolver for mounted service." This pronouncement was based on the idea that a cavalryman needed one hand free to wield his saber and the pistol required both hands to work the slide if the pistol were carried in the approved "Condition Three"-hammer down and chamber empty, whereas the revolver could be drawn from the holster ready for use.

Like so much else that was state of the art in 1911, horse cavalry no longer exists, but it would take World War Il to end it once and for all. As an aside, as far as is known to the author, who carried an M1911A1 in the Army for many years. Condition One, the favored mode of 1911 carry today, was never approved for the military. The best we could hope for was Condition Two, actually not very safe."



Then again:

AUTOMATIC PISTOL, CAL..45, M1911 AND M1911A1
classified as mounted pistol experts, pistol sharpshooters,
pistol marksmen, and unqualified.
• 78. Safety precautions on the range.-a. Safety precau-
tions.-In order to teach the trooper to handle his pistol
with safety he is frequently required to go through the mo-
tions of loading and unloading, locking and unlocking the
pistol while mounted, both at the halt and at all gaits. The
troopers should also be practiced in withdrawing and insert-
ing magazines at all gaits. During this preparatory in-
struction the trooper must be taught by exercises in simulated
fire to observe the following rules: (This will be done daily
until the proper movements in their proper sequence become
matters of habit and are instinctively performed when they
become necessary.)
(1) Always lock the pistol after loading and keep it locked
until about to fire.
(2) When a cocked pistol is held in the hand it must
always be held at raise pistol until it is locked, or until it
is necessary to fire, load, or unload. If it becomes necessary
to lower the pistol for any other purpose, the pistol must
first be locked. Mounted men should never under any
circumstances use both hands on the reins when the pistol
is drawn.
(3) At the slightest misbehavior of the horse, the pistol
must be locked. The trooper then makes a fresh start to
complete his firing. If the horse rears, plunges, bolts,
stumbles, or leaves the track, the trooper should instinctively
lock the pistol.
b. Safety exercises.-In order to habituate the troopers to
obey these rules the following exercises must be practiced
frequently:
(1) The trooper, at raise pistol and with pistol cocked and
locked, takes the track in front of the targets and unlocks
the pistol He then rides alternately off the track and onto
it again, each time locking pistol as he leaves and unlocking
pistol as he returns. This exercise is executed at all gaits.
It simulates a misbehaving horse and teaches the trooper to
lock pistol at once at the beginning of such misbehavior.
(2) The trooper, with pistol cocked and locked, takes the
track at raise pistol He now unlocks the pistol as if about





 

Chaingun81

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I normally carry an XD or a revolver or a DA semi-auto - normally with round in the chamber and safety on (where applicable). I rarely carry 1911, but if i do i carry Condition 3. I know condition 1 is safe, but having hammer cocked over a live round still freaks me out. Actually, what i do is not a textbook condition 3. I carry hammer cocked and locked over EMPTY chamber. That way i get 2 benefits compared to classical Condition 3:

1) It makes me used to carrying it cocked and locked and proves me that hammer doesn't just fall down and safety doesnt just come off - i.e. prepares me psychologically for Condition1 carry.

2) If i have to use the gun, i need a significantly less pull force to rack the slide compared to hammer down condition. Not a huge deal, but may make a difference in casethe situation allows me to use only one hand plus it makes it overall easier in a stressful situation.

That being said, i realize the danger of not having pistol readily availiable while carrying in condition 3, and therefore in only carry 1911 in situations when the chances of immideate and unexpected danger are slim. I know you cannot predict these things, but if i was THAT worried about my safety in these places i consider relatively safe, i'd probably wear a bullet-proof vest 24/7 and drive an armored car. There is always a fine line.

Coming back to the orginal topic, both Condition 0 and Condition 2 seem reckless. Especially, condition 0. No offense, but carrying like that in a regular (non-combat) setting really makes you look like this "yahoo-with-the-gun" antis try to present us as.
 

Sonora Rebel

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This 'Condition' stuff wasn't even heard of 30 years ago. The 1911 is a military combat pistol designed 100 years ago.There was no concealed carry consideration. The only holster had a flap on it 'n was tied to the leg if carried strong side. All the WWII/Korea guys I knew carried at half-cock (if asked about it)... tankers, aircrew 'n Marines.

The anti-gunners dunno SA from DA. They don't even know auto from semi-auto (and don't care). If anything, Condition1 looks scary as Condition 0. The slide lock is to the inside of the holster. 'Only thing they see is a 'cocked' pistol.
 

para_org

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Bottom line, use safeties if they are there or risk not having one if you need one at and given instant. In the case of a Glock (or Kahr or other such designs) remember that a safety is CANNOT be inside of a trigger guard.

All the rest is an extrapolation for the above two sentences.

Oh yeah, while it may be true that inside the military they did not use the safeties on a ACP style gun (1911), that does NOT mean that they somehow found their way onto the gun by some mystery. They were put there for affirmative reasons, and in the case of the backstrap mounted "grip" safety, by order of the military and it was NOT something J. Browning wanted to do. Browning specifically believed in the thumb activated safety which by deisgn cannot function as a safety UNLESS the gun is cocked.

SO...... it is NOT true that the gun was meant to be used with disregard for engaging the safety. Or so the records and documentation generated concerning this gun's adoption by the military tell us.
 

deepdiver

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Chaingun81 wrote:
I normally carry an XD or

SNIP
Do you also carry the XD condition 3 - unchambered? If not, the XD is condition 1 (or 0 depending on whether or not someone counts the backstrap safety and USA trigger "safety" as real safties) unless you have a newer .45 with the slide safety. That little silver striker indicator sticking out of the back of the slide is essentially the same thing, although less obvious, as a cocked hammer on a 1911.

That being said, I carried my XD cocked with an empty chamber for about the first 6 weeks until I got used to having a condition 1 firearm on my hip as I bought my XD when I started carrying. So I do understand the "getting used to it" part.
 

para_org

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deepdiver wrote:
Chaingun81 wrote:
I normally carry an XD or

SNIP
Do you also carry the XD condition 3 - unchambered? If not, the XD is condition 1 (or 0 depending on whether or not someone counts the backstrap safety and USA trigger "safety" as real safties) unless you have a newer .45 with the slide safety. That little silver striker indicator sticking out of the back of the slide is essentially the same thing, although less obvious, as a cocked hammer on a 1911.

That being said, I carried my XD cocked with an empty chamber for about the first 6 weeks until I got used to having a condition 1 firearm on my hip as I bought my XD when I started carrying. So I do understand the "getting used to it" part.
Unlike the hammer fired 1911 design which was originally designed without a firing pin blocking mechanism....the XD is has no hammer, is striker-fired, and has a firing pin blocking mechanism.

Your posting presumes a similar internal mechanisms being manipulated by similar external controls. This, of course makes for a poor comparison in as much as this is NOT the case at all.
 

deepdiver

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para_org wrote:
deepdiver wrote:
Chaingun81 wrote:
I normally carry an XD or

SNIP
Do you also carry the XD condition 3 - unchambered? If not, the XD is condition 1 (or 0 depending on whether or not someone counts the backstrap safety and USA trigger "safety" as real safties) unless you have a newer .45 with the slide safety. That little silver striker indicator sticking out of the back of the slide is essentially the same thing, although less obvious, as a cocked hammer on a 1911.

That being said, I carried my XD cocked with an empty chamber for about the first 6 weeks until I got used to having a condition 1 firearm on my hip as I bought my XD when I started carrying. So I do understand the "getting used to it" part.
Unlike the hammer fired 1911 design which was originally designed without a firing pin blocking mechanism....the XD is has no hammer, is striker-fired, and has a firing pin blocking mechanism.

Your posting presumes a similar internal mechanisms being manipulated by similar external controls. This, of course makes for a poor comparison in as much as this is NOT the case at all.
Not really. My point was simply that IMO, as a practical/conceptual matter there isn't much difference between carrying a 1911 cocked and locked and carrying a chambered XD which the quoted members says he more often carries. That is why I said "essentially the same thing" rather than directly equating the two.

I could have added, excepting possibly the reaction of people as the 1911 is obviously cocked whereas the XD (or Glock or many other striker fired sidearms) are not obviously loaded and cocked/half-cocked and specified a series 70/80 1911 with a firing pin block but I thought that all that would confuse the basic point of my post being that if one is not afraid of carrying a chambered XD, Glock, etc. there is no reason to fear carrying a 1911 cocked and locked. Trigger control, proper holster, the real safety is between your ears and all other standard disclaimers applied.
 

para_org

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Well ya lost me .... either the two different mechanisms make (or allow) for a proper comparison or they do not. If it is not a proper comparison, it is important to recognize the differences since the controls do not afford the same functions, nor do the same things, nor are defeated/rendered moot in the same ways.

But that's o.k. too. My wife might agree with you and would probably be happy to explain that she often thinks I am confused.

Two other quick points.... the XD and the Glock are quite different internally so again a comparison based on controls is superficial at best.....and the Series 70 Colt does not have a firing pin block.

Have we beat this horse to death yet ?
 

Spectre

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hunter45 wrote:
I recently purchased my first 1911. I'm curious, do many of you carry in "condition 0" (with the thumb safety off), or do the majority of you have the thumb safety applied?
Absolutely FRAKKING not! The only time I would be in condition 0 is when I'm ready for my 1911 to go bang either at the range or in defense of my life. I carry my weapon in condition 1 only.
 

para_org

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One quick rule of thumb on the standard 1911 design - if the "condition" number is odd.... that's relatively safe.

If the "condition" number is even... that's relatively unsafe.

And so it goes....

P.S.... I am not exactly sure why Glock is able to confuse so many people abut the nature of their lockworks, but they have even managed to convince people that they have THREE safety systems. I am certainly dumbfounded by this success in marketing without proper evidence of there really being any such stuff inside the pistol.
 

JOESEEB

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I do not own a 1911 but some day plan to; However I own a ruger p90 which is based off of the 1911. I would say that if i owned a 1911I would carry in consdition 1 (round chambered hammer cocked and the thumb safty on) as the p90 I carry is a double action I carry it with a round chambered hammer down and thumb safty on so all I have to do is flip the safty and pull trigger. while i under stand that the 1911 is not a double action I would agree that the hammer should be cocked with one in the chamber but I would never carry with out the safty on as it is unsafe. someone mentioned that mechanical devices fail will it your carring in condition 0 and the spirng for the hammer fails then guess what that bad boy is going off. the chances that more than one device will fail on the same weapon at the same time is nearly imposible so it is better to put faith in the safty then the cocking mechinism. My reason is that the safty can be flipped durring the draw process. As my p90 has a hammer block flip saftey and a trigger block saftey there is no way it can fail (the saftey must be rotated out of the way so the hammer can fall). carrieing in condition 0 in my opinion is most unsafe and I see no reason for it.

anyway thats my .02 cents take it or leave it but due so at your own risk! and the risk of others.
 

Sonora Rebel

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There is no hammer spring to fail in a 1911. The hammer is held by a sear under tension of the hammer strut. The strut won't fail (too big) but the sear...??? 'Never heard of that happening. If the strut failed the hammer would just flop.I've never known of a 1911 to AD from an internal failure... unless the guts had been messed with improperly.
 

Dustin

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Sonora Rebel wrote:
Then... there's this... fitting to OCDO:


"The society of late twentieth century America is perhaps the first in human history where most grown men do not routinely bear arms on their persons and boys are not regularly raised from childhood to learn skill in the use of some kind of weapon, either for community or personal defense- club or spear, broadsword or long bow, rifle or Bowie knife. It also happens to be one of the rudest and crudest societies in history, having jubilantly swept most of the etiquette of speech, table, dress, hospitality, fairness, deference to authority and the relations of male and female and child and elder under the fraying and filthy carpet of politically convenient illusions. With little fear of physical reprisal Americans can be as loud, gross, disrespectful, pushy, and negligent as they please. If more people carried rapiers at their belts, or revolvers on their hips, It is a fair bet you would be able to go to a movie and enjoy he dialogue from the screen without having to endure the small talk, family gossip and assorted bodily noises that many theater audiences these days regularly emit. Today, discourtesy is commonplace precisely because there is no price to pay for it."

Samuel Francis



Not only my sons, but my daughters too will indeed be shooters. As are every one of us in my family.

It means a whole lot more than just being proficient with firearms.

It's pure, true, righteousfamily time, that today does not exist in most famlies who don't even eat at the same table, or at the same time, or even in the same room as eachother, as if they are all in their own individualworlds that must not coincide with eachother.

...sigh...










 
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