Why open carry in Delaware?

[mkl]

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Hawker, you became a troll when you said
"Anyone who is serious about carrying here will get a CCDW Permit and carry concealed. The open carry crowd sends the wrong message about guns. The public doesn't understand, the police don't understand"

You show that you have no interest in OC. You have already made up you mind and you then belittle the people who ARE ocing. The conversation about why OCing did not make you a troll. Your actions in that thread did.

" The original question was "Why open carry in Delaware". I haven't seen a satisfactory answer yet"
I know I know, all those points I made in the second post of this thread that you have not acknowledged. How about you pick one of those?


"Maybe some of the others are just young keyboard commandos."

I know I know, You're a vietname vet who was a pilot for the Army. You've flown private jets. YOU don't know anyone else here yet, and when you come in with the attitude that you know more than anyone on the site, you aren't going to fit in. There are a lot of ex-military, and current military, and LEO's here. You aren't special.

If you are here to stir up trouble and not listen to anyone, we don't want you. Go Away.

 

[Hawker]

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[Dutch Uncle]

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Hawker wrote:

The open carry crowd sends the wrong message about guns. The public doesn't understand, the police don't understand, and I think it is a situation looking for trouble.

Why don't you spend more time working on the shall issue aspect of carrying in Delaware instead of testing the system?

Sir,
Concealed carry is considered a PRIVILEGE in the states that allow it. Americans understand they have a RIGHT to keep and BEAR arms. If you would only allow CC, then we no longer have the right to bear arms. You say we are looking for trouble because "the public doesn't understand, the police don't understand". I'm completely flabbergasted by your comments. Are you saying we should just give up the right to bear arms because it's so little used that most people don't even recognize it anymore??? That we are "testing the system" by simply exercising a right? Perhaps if things are as bad as you say, some testing of the system in DE is long overdue.

By the way sir, 4 or 5 years ago, many in Virginia thought the way you do, but largely because of our work here, virtually all the police know, and the public can hardly pick up a newspaper without being reminded OC is legal. Undoubtedly, there are those who would like to legislate this freedom away, but they know politicians would see it as professional suicide. This is how it should be. Nothing you can say will ever make me believe we should give up a right because the public "doesn't understand".

 

[Dutch Uncle]

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Hawker wrote:

mkl wrote: If we were shall issue in Delaware and it took nothing more than a background check to get your permit, would that be ok? I would be fine with that.

No!!!! That would not be "OK"! I don't care if it only takes a kind word to get your so-called open carry "permit". Requiring any kind of a permit to exercise a right is completely illogical.

Since religious zealotry is the cause of some of the worst wars in history, would you think it "OK" to require all of us to just get a simple ol' permit to go to the church of our choice? We might only have to pass a little "background check" to get it, right?

 

[Hawker]

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[mkl]

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"My original question: "My question is why open carry? Delaware is not a hard state to get your permit. Why open yourself up to false arrests, hassles, and the like? Just get the permit and don't worry about it. Then... add on PA and FL and you are good to go"."

And you got a bunch of responses as why people prefer OC to CC, which you then ignored, and have never addressed.


"I don't see where that is an attack on the open carry community."

I can point you to your post that made it an attack, it was this one that you made:

"Anyone who is serious about carrying here will get a CCDW Permit and carry concealed. The open carry crowd sends the wrong message about guns."

See what you did there? You said that anyone OCing isn't as "serious" as you are about carrying. Then you implied that concealed is the only proper form of carrying. Then you said that OC somehow makes all gun owners worse off.

Those were all attacks that you made. Now you act surprised that we feel that you are attacking OC.

So, how about you go through the first points I made about why people OC, and tell us why you disagree with them. Here, I will help you along by asking them in the form of a question.

1. Do you believe that someone who can not get a permit in DE, but can legally OC, should have to go defenseless?
2.Do you believe if someone can not afford to get a permit that they should have to go defenseless?
3.Do you feel that the doing a legal act in the name of political activism is wrong?
4.Do you believe that a criminal seeing more people OC at a location may influence their decision to seek a "weaker" target?
5.Do you believe you should have to ask the government for a permit for the things in the bill of rights?
6.Do you believe that OC can be more comfortable than CCing?
7. Do you have nice grips on your pistol and want to show them off?
8. Do you believe that the average shooter can draw faster in a defensive situation with OC or with CC?

 

[Myopicvisionary]

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Hawker, I have had zero confrontations while open carrying. As for CC, it is a royal pain to conceal a 1911 in the heat of summer

 

[MustangDave]

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Hawker wrote:

Possibly the Delaware group could become more visible with law enforcement and the general public at large? This takes alot more than just open carrying to a restaurant to see if someone is going to bitch or not. That's what I meant about someone flaunting and testing the system, legal or not.

When is the next meeting with law enforcement? I'd like to be there. When was the last? Are there meeting notes online somewhere if there were prior meetings?We are talking Delaware.

Why don't you come to one of our meetings a bring some of your many LEO friends with you? Maybe they can help get in touch with some higher-ups and let them know open carry is legal, then they can make sure that all LEO's in the state know that open carry is legal to make sure none of us get hassled.

BTW I have had 4 good encounters with non LEO's when OCing, and everyone treats me with alot more respect when I carry.

 

[Hawker]

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[Mike]

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Hawker wrote:

That's what I meant about someone flaunting and testing the system, legal or not.

Since when is open carry "flaunting"?

Concealed carry has always been the evil upon which legislation aimed to limit or ban - open carry is lawful in DE, without any permit, just like most states. It's no secret.

 

[gotarheels03]

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Hawker wrote:

I think open carry is way too confrontational in my state of Delaware. It's not about the exercizing of one'sconstitutional rights and such. It's about who is actually carrying. It could be anyone who wants to strap it on....criminal or otherwise. No checks.. no proven proficiency... possibly nothing except to prove it can be done. Sort of like borderline brandishing and flaunting the law.

Anyone who is serious about carrying here will get a CCDW Permit and carry concealed. The open carry crowd sends the wrong message about guns. The public doesn't understand, the police don't understand, and I think it is a situation looking for trouble.

Why don't you spend more time working on the shall issue aspect of carrying in Delaware instead of testing the system?

What's "confrontational" about carrying a piece of metal & plastic on your hip. If you're not verbally threatening anyone nor waving it around then there's nothing "confrontational" about it. What if you decided to wear a "Barack Obama is a socialist asshole" T-shirt at a campaign rally in Wilmington? Should that no be allowed because it's "not about exercizing your 1st amendment rights."

When is the last time you heard of a violent crime occurring in Delaware where the criminal was carrying an openly holstered pistol with a tucked in dress shirt & khakis? You haven't heard about such things, not here nor anywhere else in America BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HAPPEN.

Do you have to prove proficiency with the english language before being allowed to protest? Do you have to prove you have adequate knowledge of government & politics before voting? Must you show a particular level of understanding of your rights and of our legal system in order to recieve legal counsel or a jury trial? Do you have to ask government permission, pay a hefty fee, and receive a permit to exercize these rights and many others?

Since when is doing something completely legal "flaunting the law?"

If the police arrest me because THEY don't know the law, how am I the one who's "looking for trouble?"

 

[mkl]

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If someone can't get a CC than he shouldn't be carrying at all.


I currently live in Virginia. I was born in DE, and a lot of my family is there. When I am in DE should I be defenseless? Yes, I could get a Florida permit...for even more money, and time. Or I could OC, for free. Now.
There are numerous reasons someone can't get a permit. In DE you have to have a REASON to get one. and then you need 5 references that also agree you NEED a handgun. If I just move to the state and don't know anyone who is willing to state in a legal document that I need a handgun, I lose my ability to defend myself? I think you need to rethink that.


Afford? If you can afford the gun, ammo, and practice, you can afford the permit.

But what if you can't afford the total cost of the gun, practice, and the permit together? I would prefer someone buy the gun and practice, to getting the permit.

I believe anyone should have the ability to protect themselves, even if they can't afford a few hundred dollars for a permit (Newspaper, fingerprinting, professional training). The money they spend on a permit could potentially be better used for more practice.


A legal act is fine. It's the political activism and OC I have a problem with.


A legal act is fine, and OC is legal. So how do you have a problem? You believe no one should do political activism? I'll quote Ghandi on this, "Be the change you wish to see in the world". If you wait around for the world to change for the better and do nothing, you're going to wait a long time.


No.. I see a criminal trying to figure out how he can get your gun. While he's looking at your gun, I'll be watching both of you.

Ok. I see it differently, but who can say.


You didn't answer my question about background checks for gun purchases. What do you think? Yes or No to our right to bear (and buy) arms?


I do not believe in government restrictions for gun purchases.


Not for me. I prefer IWB carry and it's not an issue. I suppose it is more comfortable for some. 


I have never seen an IWB rig as comfortable as a OC rig. But ok.

I have a Wilson 1911 with awesome grips. No one gets to see them and that is just how I like it.

This was more of a joke


I can't answer that. Your rig has alot to do with how quickly and accessible your gun is. Your proficiency has even more to do with it.
[/quote]

Yeah, but the same person, with IWB with a shirt over it, or an exposed paddle holster...We all know the answer. In general OC is going to be faster.


You don't have to agree that OC is better than CC or anything. Just acknowledge that for some people, for some purposes, for some places, OC is preferable. Then acknowledge that YOU don't get decide for everyone else what those places, purposes are, they do.

Then realize if you are just on an Open Carry to stir up trouble, take a hike. Go over to Glock Talk, where you'll find 300 people who all claim they are more skilled in firearms than anyone else, you'll fit right in.

 

[Wynder]

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Hawker wrote:

My original question: "My question is why open carry? Delaware is not a hard state to get your permit. Why open yourself up to false arrests, hassles, and the like? Just get the permit and don't worry about it. Then... add on PA and FL and you are good to go"

"Hard" is relative.

It's not "hard" to get your license in Pennsylvania. You walk into a Sherrif's office, fill out a paper, write a check for $30, and you can be walking out with it 15 minutes later.

In Delaware, you:

1. Take your 10 hour training course for $250. Cost prohibitive.
2. Get your five references.
3. Post your full name and home address in a news paper that gets 33% of the circulation in your county -- great for those vicitms of domestic abuse that are trying to hide from their abusive partners and are seeking to protect themselves. ($74)
4. Get your fingerprints taken. ($69)
5. Fill out your application in duplicate and submit. ($34.50)

And, after the state police complete their investigation and the Delaware Department of Justice/Attorney General's office does their investigation it's bounced up to the bench judge who can still, at a whim, turn you down.

It took me over four months to get my CCDW. It was hard.

I don't see where that is an attack on the open carry community. Because I don't agree with open carry v. concealed carry doesn't make me one of the bad guys. I'm all for gun rights, but let's make sure the folks who shouldn't have them don't have them.

You've stated that it's the 'flaunting' and 'political activism' that's you don't like. Fair enough; however, there are no 'concealed carry' groups in Delaware doing anything for the state of politics in Delaware. There are at least eight laws and ordinances in Delaware that need changing to allow us the freedom to carry in places like state parks, county parks and Dover -- open OR concealed.

If we were shall issue in Delaware and it took nothing more than a background check to get your permit, would that be ok? I would be fine with that.

Here's the thing as well -- screw the Second Amendment, it was as recent as 1986... just over 20 years ago, that Delaware enacting Article I, Section 20 into our Consitution... "A person has the right to keep and bear arms for the defense of self, family, property and State; and for hunting and recreational use." So soon ago it seems that this right was guaranteed.

There is only a single law that covers illegally carrying a firearm; Title 11, section 1442 Carrying a concealed weapon which has been ruled by the Delaware Supreme Cour to NOT violate Article I, Section 20. Open carry is perfectly lawful behavior and the choice of those whom choose to do it.

Background checks are only required for handguns. If a criminal wanted to go out and pick up a rifle, what's going to be the difference here? They still have a deadly weapon; it's just a matter of concealability, which is what I'm sure you'll say, but the crux of your argument seems to focus on keeping deadly weapons out of the hands of the "bad guys", as if you think that someone who's actually willing to use a weapon to shoot another individual to take their property is going to actually obey that law.

No. The thug who sits on a street corner and sees two identical marks -- one walking north and one walking east -- and notices that one of them is carrying a gun, he will certainly choose the easier mark.

As for hassles from law enforcement, they are servants of the public and they have limits in their power. If they step over the bounds, they will be sued as many times as it takes for them to learn that it's a matter of civil rights and their personal opinion on what they 'think' the law should be will have no effect on what the rights of the people are.

If you wish to conceal, that's fine -- we have no problem with that and respect your decision. You may disagree with our opinion; however, we do ask that you respect it. You can go along to get along if you want... that's fine. The Brady's are probably more happy that people with your line of thinking live in Delaware. In the meantime, we'll be here attempting to fight for both our causes and our State will be the better for it.

 

[Hawker]

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[mkl]

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Hawker wrote:

You folks have a good time walking about openly. I hope it works out for you.  I'm tired of being berated by a bunch of gunshop commandos with little or no experience. I'm gone. Have a good day.

*Sigh* you still choose personal attacks about age and experience over the issues. When you still don't know any of our ages, or experience. And I love a nice passive-aggressive "Have a good day".

Good riddance.

 

[Placementvs.Calibur]

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I don't care about the publics perception while I OC. Their fears have been bred into them for years by the anti-gun bigots. Fact: at last count there are more states that allow open carry than don't. I only OC(I don't want to CC), outside of work, and where legal and have only been hassled by those(the public)who don't understand the law or the Constitution. CC is great in Joe Biden land, but in VA we prefer the right to choose. I'd rather pay sales tax in exchange for the right to OC.

 

[Wynder]

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Hawker wrote:

Most of you people seem to be young... nothing wrong with that as long as your bravado isn't getting in front of good common sense.

You're wrong. I'm personally 35 -- wife, two kids and work for the state. Sure, we have a couple of guys in their 20's, but we also have several in their 40's and 50's. And it's not bravado... I don't carry because I can. I open carry primarily for self-defense and secondly because I enjoy the freedoms endowed to me by my creator and protected by our State Constitution.

Wynder.. the concealed carry folks worked their butts off trying to get the shall issue passed when it came through here a couple of years ago. Don't say we don't do anything.

Hardly... That was championed by Delaware State Sportman's Association -- hunter's, bless their hearts. What's been done recently, though? Nothing. When was the last time you've written your councilperson or attended a council meeting and spoke out against the multiple illegal laws in Delaware?

To say that the Brady people will like my line of thinking is a cheap shot from someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. And you say you are the state administrator? The administrator of what?

That title is from the forum operators. I compile Delaware state, county and municipal law and case law to make it available so that people might educate themselves on carrying both openly and concealed. Again, what have YOU done?

You folks have a good time walking about openly. I hope it works out for you. I'm tired of being berated by a bunch of gunshop commandos with little or no experience. I'm gone. Have a good day.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out. If you attempted to engage in civil discourse, it might've gotten you somewhere, but your inability to respect the decision of others' lawful choices will net you the same response throughout your life.

 

[sprat]

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Hawker

I am 51 yrs old &no yougster, I am a former member of packing dot org website. I open carried in Nevada in the 80's and have had a Resident florida CCW since they were first issued, I also have a Pa CCW

you are the young one and out of line here As a member of the delaware open carry group do me and everyone else a favor and don't showup at our meetings. Please stop commenting on this siteas you are a trouble maker and or aTROLL.

just whatwe need a punk with 1911,

sprat

 

[Wynder]

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sprat wrote:

I am 51 yrs old &no yougster, I am a former member of packing dot org website. I open carried in Nevada in the 80's and have had a Resident florida CCW since they were first issued, I also have a Pa CCW

A gun-owner who agress with gun control. I'd put 2:1 odds that he's current or retired law enforcement.

 

[rady8um]

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Hawker wrote:

I know more about carrying and guns than probably most of you on here. So don'tpull out the troll thing.

hahahahahahahahaha

funny stuff