Why open carry in Delaware?

[rady8um]

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Hawker wrote:

I'm not trying to bust on you here, just trying to understand why you are ok with permits and checks for concealed carry, but not open carry.

Who said anybody was ok with this?

 

[Wynder]

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rady8um wrote:

Hawker wrote:

I'm not trying to bust on you here, just trying to understand why you are ok with permits and checks for concealed carry, but not open carry.

Who said anybody was ok with this?

+1.

 

[sprat]

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wynder

A gun-owner who agrees with gun control. I'd put 2:1 odds that he's current or retired law enforcement.

then he is a self rightous entitled sc*mbag with a I am more important than you are attitude, give them a little power. shame he ruins it for the rest of the good one's

ignore him he is not worth our valuable time

sprat

 

[Lthrnck]

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After reading his last post, I would not only say he's a troll... I would bet he's a member of the Brady Bunch..

 

[Hawker]

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[radnor]

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Hawker wrote:

I'd like to see Delaware a shall issue state. I spent alot of money and time on this when it was the issue. It will come back again once the current admin changes. Hopefully, it goes down differently and is completed next time.

And hopefully, Ms. George will NOT be in office when it does. She added so much to it to kill it.

 

[Wynder]

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Hawker wrote:

You folks want to promote open carry in Delaware, but you become very confrontational when what you perceive is an opposing view. I don't understand that. I'm guessing that in person, you folks really are good citizens and don't appear as hateful as your writings on this forum. So in saying that...... let'sgo on.

I'm very accepting and respectful of other peoples' opinions as long as they are respectful of mine. I'm very much willing to agree to disagree and have tried to phrase my arguments so -- your previous posts have not; however, this last post certainly shows a more reasonable side.

Also, bear in mind that the first page and a half of your discussion was with people who are not from Delaware and aren't affiliated with our group.

To have greater acceptance and less resistance to OC, you will have sit down and address this subject of open carry with law enforcement, our DE legislators, and the general public at large.

We have done this, individually, to quite some extent -- we've discussed it with Newark, Wilmington, New Castle County and Delaware State police, all of whom, save for the latter, knew it was lawful behavior; however, that being said, you're generally going to see resistance to discussion or even a training bulletin about something against which there is no law -- particularly this topic.

The (uninformed) people of this state are not comfortable with open carry (yet) and you know it. Some education will have to be forthcoming by you. You will also have to address the opposing views. How you effect this will be very important to all gun owners, including those with CCW permits as well.

We have a common phrase on these boards, "Cite please." Many of us open carry daily and, on the whole have neutral or positive experiences and often wind up educating the people who inquire as to our sidearms. We keep logs and detail encounters with both people and law enforcement, so, if you have some statistic or experience you'd like to share that proves your statement, feel free to provide it.

My experiences have all been positive, even with a Delaware State Police officer who had helped me with a case of vandalism to my vehicle.

I came to this forum and stated that I preferred CCW over OC and that I favored background checks for OC. These are some of the comments that were generated against me by your OC Group:

> A gun-owner who agrees with gun control.

Is this an inaccurate statement? You advocated a gun-control measure.

> I'd put 2:1 odds that he's current or retired law enforcement. (and this from your group's leader)

Is this a derogatory statement? There's nothing wrong with being a law enforcement officer in my eyes and your view is common with some officers, and I still hold it as an observation.

Also, to clarify, I am not the group leader. I organize and collect law for this site. For the Delaware group, I simply help organize time and dates for our gatherings. We are not a leader-based group.

> he's a troll

This comment was not from a member of the Delaware group.

> I would bet he's a member of the Brady Bunch.

Again, not from the Delaware group.

> just what we need a punk with 1911

Valid grievance.

> he is a self rightous entitled sc*mbag

And another.

> I don't care about the publics perception while I OC

Nothing wrong with someone's point of view here. If we cared what other people thought about how we dressed, acted or lived, we'd all still be living in a High School popularity contest. Just like a African American shouldn't care what people think if he walks through a 'nice' neighborhood, I shouldn't care what people think if my behavior is lawful.

What are these comments? Does this show resolve or a commitment to your mission? Is this what you want the public to think of you and your group? I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but there are many others that won't and that could hurt your good intentions.

These are social forums and the comments are reactions to your position and stances when you come to a site of like-minded individuals and pose a dissenting view. As I've mentioned before, the majority of the people with whom you were debating are not Delaware residents, nor do they speak for our group.

Hell, *I* don't even speak for our group -- we are a collection of friends and acquaintences who share a common belief who happen to get together every month for an evening of good company and good food and discuss what we can collectively do to effect changes in our local laws.

At this point and time, we are, by no means, a slick, organized face of gun rights advocacy in Delaware. This isn't and, most likely, won't be a full time job for any of us, though there are folks who are dedicated to putting a good foot forward for both open and concealed carriers as the current illegal laws and ordinances in Delaware affect ALL of us.

Obviously, some of us are more vehment than others and, while I can't apologize on their behalf, I can't begrudge someone who honestly believes 1) in the right to keep and bear arms and 2) is willing to fight for that right for both concealed and open carriers... which, in all honesty, is not the vibe I got from you when you exited the discussion, albeit under understandable circumstances.

However, please be aware that, if you do continue discussions here and constantly push the issue of only concealing, you will be the blacksheep and be met with constant opposition to your view -- you're not going to change our minds. If, on the other hand, you're willing to respect our choice, we can, perhaps, move forward with an agreeable difference, but for a common goal.

I'd like to see Delaware a shall issue state. I spent alot of money and time on this when it was the issue. It will come back again once the current admin changes. Hopefully, it goes down differently and is completed next time.

I certainly hope you're right and we look forward to aiding in that fight.

As for OC, like it or not, you will be presenting your arguments to gain public acceptance.

We do this by open carrying daily. Educating the people and desensitizing them to actually seeing someone peaceably carrying a firearm. In my mind, this is secondary to having the illegal laws repealed... Once we have the books straightened out and don't need to worry about legal issues, we can then focus on the social.

Delaware's gun laws can be fixed. We have preemption. we have a Constitutional guarantee. It's a matter of forcing the issue with the city and county councils. The law is on our side and by presenting the caveats of leaving illegals laws in their current form, the politicians will start the job on the social issue for us as they make these changes when they have to explain why the changes are required to their constituancy.

Not lashing out like you did here when someone has legitimate questions and concerns would be a good start, wouldn't it?

Let's see where we go from here.

If you would like to engage in civil conversation, definitely feel free to stick around and ask; however, your concerns are not new. Everything imaginable you can think of, we've heard in one form or another and there are equally opposing or superior arguments against them. It is a choice and a choice that we've made.

As I've mentioned, if you're willing to leave the topic of that decision behind and focus on gun rights (we do have a couple of people in our OC group who only CC, and that's great -- we still share this common goal!) definitely stick around or let us know how we can help you in making Delaware a shall issue state. However, if you're going to argue our Constitutionally protected choice of open carrying, you will most likely meet mass opposition on this particular forum.

 

[gotarheels03]

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I don't yet carry for a variety of reasons. I want more practice with my weapon 1st, and my family issues / situation make carrying quite problematic. When I do decide to start carrying regularly public perception won't be a major factor in my decision.

I don't really care about public perception of OC. Obviously I'd prefer that everyone see it as a positive thing and not be alarmed, but why should I let those with irrational fears dictate my lawful actions? The only people I have any reason to concern myself with while OC'ing are criminals and police.

Public perception of the military is extremely negative in certain areas of the country (for example Berkeley & San Fran, CA) Does that mean we should chastise a member of the armed forces if he chooses to go out in public in his BDU's? What about the disabled? Amputees? should they stay at home and avoid being out in public because of negative public perceptions? What about really ugly people?

If you avoid doing / saying things because you might offend someone you're going to live a pretty boring life. I see no reason to worry about some soccer mom with an irrational fear of a piece of metal & plastic in a holster. It's her irrational fear, and thats an issue SHE has to deal with, not me.

Obviously we don't want to intentionally scare people, but I'm not going to go out of my way to avoid hurting other peoples "feelings"

 

[Hawker]

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[Hawker]

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[Wynder]

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Hawker wrote:

One more thing... your collection of law (.pdf file) is very good. It's the best I've seen. Thank you.

Thanks kindly. Took me a while to compile it... Hoping to get a pamphlet-ized version of the core stuff out at some point when I have free time.

 

[Hawker]

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[Placementvs.Calibur]

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511 tactical Big Horn jacket for winter carry,it has zippers on either side for OCing. Most jackets now have drawstring bottoms which allows a holster to fit underneath.

 

[ScottyT]

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Hawker wrote

I saw the park ordinance for NCCo in your law summary, but what are the other 8 or so laws that you refer to as illegal in DE?

Q. As a side.... Whatdo you open carry guys do when carrying during the winter when you have to wear a coat or heavy clothing?

I tuck my coat between my holster and my body on strong side. If it is really bad weather I just conceal... of course some folks can't.

 

[Wynder]

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Hawker wrote:

I saw the park ordinance for NCCo in your law summary, but what are the other 8 or so laws that you refer to as illegal in DE?

Q. As a side.... Whatdo you open carry guys do when carrying during the winter when you have to wear a coat or heavy clothing?

New Castle County Parks; City of Newark concealed carry is practically void for vagueness -- they're now in the process of simply trying to repeal it in favor of using Delaware state's concealed law which actually carries a harsher penalty; City of Newark Park has an illegal regulation prohibiting possession of a firearm. In addition, we've also just found a resource for a lot of local municipalities from lower NCC and Kent/Sussex that have obscure/vague and illegal laws that we're in the process of sorting out with regards to the date on which they were enacted to see if they fall inside of preemption.

I'm also looking at the state park regulation... Eight is an educated guess with all of the ordinances we're currenltly looking over and have identified potential issues. However, none of us are lawyers, so it's taking us a bit longer.

Last year was quite mild. I got away wearing a fleece. On the days it was truely bitter, I tossed on my wool jacket and put my CCDW to use. I'm sure some of the other guys who carry without a permit could probably answer that question better.

 

[Mr. Bruce]

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In the winter I wear long johns and a short gore-tex jacket with a drawstring that keeps my coat tight against my waist. My holster holds my gun out enough that it is an obvious OC and my jacket never covers my gun.

 

[stephpd]

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Glad to see the conversation calm down . Haker: Berfore last year this section of open carry was very quite. It is because of the activity of a couple guys that this forum has increased in activity. Granted most of us are new to carrying and aren't hear for political reasons but to understand the laws. The get togethers are to put a face to the sceen name and spend some time together.

With the work of Wynder on compiling the laws and the bad laws on the books that some have taken to talking with politians about striking the illegal laws. We don't want to write MORE laws but to remove the illegal ones. Shall issue would be nice but having people like Sarh Brady living in this state it won't happen. They pay off a politician to amend a bill to death.

Open carry is legal and lawful. Hard to enforce a law that isn't on the books. And I like the lack of laws. More laws make for more reading and more contradictions and more confusion.

As far as educating the police and the citizens that is being done by those that carry openly and explain to the people they come upon that it's legal.Citizens as well as police. Getting both involved on a large scale is difficult and time consuming. If you want to help out in this area we would appreaciate it. We souldn't have to tell the police it legal, the Attorny General has aready said the same. Can't find any law against it. Public opinion is harder on a large scale. Most people don't read the paper and we don't have a major news station in DE. As more people exercise their rights to carry openly it becomes more acceptable. Criminals never carry openly. And I doubt they have permits for CCDW or went through a background check to purchase a gun. Braking laws is what makes them criminals. More laws only effect the law abiding, NOT THE CRIMNIALS. We don't need more laws, just more arrests and tougher sentencing. Punish the criminal not the rest.

Oh, as one who only carries concealed with a CCDW and attends 'our meetings' I have never and will never suggest that we should have to go through another process to do what already legal. I support those that do carry openly and are willing to deal with the confrontaions with the police and citizens. As someone who chooses to look less civalized then the rest I choose to carry concealed so I won't get arrested or detained. But because of the way I look I have less problems with the criminal element by not looking like a mark. My choice.

There can be many reasons for not getting a CCDW. I presonally found it an invasion of privacy to have to list in the paper my name and address. Those with bad intentions could find my home easyer and rob my home looking for guns. Others are strapped for cash for the mandatory safety classes. I work with several elderly folks that find money hard to come by and can barely afford a gun, let alone money for ammo and time on the range. Do they have any less need to be able to protect themselves? Self defense is in our state laws as a reason for the right to keep and bear arms. Kind of the ' life, libery and pursuit of happiness' type of thing applying to all no matter what income level. Seems to me they have more of a reason because they can't afford to get out of the high crime areas. Is their life worth less? Not to me.

 

[Placementvs.Calibur]

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I really dislike Joe Biden and cringed when he attempted a presidential bid.

My top5 dislike list:

1. Osama Bin Laden:X

2. Rev. Farrakhan:cuss:

3. Ohminamamajihad (you know, Irans president)

4. Joe Biden

5. Ted Kennedy:banghead:

 

[radnor]

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Placementvs.Calibur wrote:

I really dislike Joe Biden and cringed when he attempted a presidential bid.

My top5 dislike list:

1. Osama Bin Laden:X

2. Rev. Farrakhan:cuss:

3. Ohminamamajihad (you know, Irans president)

4. Joe Biden

5. Ted Kennedy:banghead:

+1 on the list.

 

[Hawker]

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