Should convicted felons be allowed to bear arms?

[Primus]

You still didn't answer "why". The amount is fairly irrelevant.

So you are going to go onto one red herring after another? How does a guy in prison compensate the victim?

Why are you purposefully putting the amounts ridiculously low?

You also seem to be making the false assumption about my views of punishment and of people. More fallacy arguments upon fallacy arguments.

I wanna play your fallacy game for a second, why are you anti justice?

I answered why. The dollar amount is used to generate revenue for other services.

A guy in prison can't pay the victim with money. But if you ever met a victim of a violent crime you'd learn that the fact that the d bag who did x crime to the will NOT he able to do it to them or anyone else again is a big payment.

The amounts can be anything. Set it at 1 million for a punch in the face. Set it at a billion for a rape. Still diesjt answer how/ who decides the amount. And it certainly doesn't rehabilitate or even get them off the street for one day.

I'm not anti justice. Not remotely. Regardless of how hard you try to paint it that way.

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[hahah]

Some people think that if you don't agree with their extreme beliefs that you are wrong. Sometimes people just don't agree.

 

[Primus]

Some people think that if you don't agree with their extreme beliefs that you are wrong. Sometimes people just don't agree.

Well said. +1

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[Grapeshot]

I guess you missed the moderator's point that this whole "federal felony" thing that has the potential to make felons of us all, is off topic.
View attachment 11640

AND to ignore that is not w/o risk - still prefer a light hand......as much as possible.

 

[stealthyeliminator]

AND to ignore that is not w/o risk - still prefer a light hand......as much as possible.

What? Are you agreeing that discussing what is a felon is irrelevant to the discussion of should felons be prohibited from owning firearms? If so, that's preposterous.

 

[stealthyeliminator]

Some people think that if you don't agree with their extreme beliefs that you are wrong. Sometimes people just don't agree.

What? If you don't believe someone is wrong for disagreeing, then that can only mean you did not yourself believe your argument to be true. This isn't an amoral issue, like what color tie I should wear today. There is a right answer and a wrong answer. If you have an opinion, and someone does not agree, you must believe that their opinion is incorrect.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

I answered why. The dollar amount is used to generate revenue for other services.

A guy in prison can't pay the victim with money. But if you ever met a victim of a violent crime you'd learn that the fact that the d bag who did x crime to the will NOT he able to do it to them or anyone else again is a big payment.

The amounts can be anything. Set it at 1 million for a punch in the face. Set it at a billion for a rape. Still diesjt answer how/ who decides the amount. And it certainly doesn't rehabilitate or even get them off the street for one day.

I'm not anti justice. Not remotely. Regardless of how hard you try to paint it that way.

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So it has nothing to do with punishing the person for the infraction?

Are you purposefully ignoring what was said? So prison and that's it no compensation?

Being locked up may be a "payment" in the sense of punishment, it isn't a payment of compensation, quit being daft.

LOL....I was playing your fallacy accusation game back at you....you didn't get that?

You don't understand what justice is, that is obvious, and you refuse to be enlightened. There is a theory of justice based on natural law. Of course that is opposite to your religious adherence to the dogma and indoctrination of the church of state.

P.S. In your life of living off other's money, did you or did you not take an oath to the constitution?

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Some people think that if you don't agree with their extreme beliefs that you are wrong. Sometimes people just don't agree.

Who's extreme?

The use of extreme makes me laugh, because it's a two way street. No one can claim someone else an "extremist" without being in an extreme position themselves.

I take statist calling me extreme as a badge of honor.

I call it my CARE program. Confrontational (its not bad to confront what is wrong), Anarchistic (it's not bad to minimize the government involvement in your life), Radical ( because by the very definition it change at the root of the problems, like our radical founding fathers), Extreme (as I already explained)

I CARE because I care.

 

[Primus]

So it has nothing to do with punishing the person for the infraction?

Are you purposefully ignoring what was said? So prison and that's it no compensation?

Being locked up may be a "payment" in the sense of punishment, it isn't a payment of compensation, quit being daft.

LOL....I was playing your fallacy accusation game back at you....you didn't get that?

You don't understand what justice is, that is obvious, and you refuse to be enlightened. There is a theory of justice based on natural law. Of course that is opposite to your religious adherence to the dogma and indoctrination of the church of state.

P.S. In your life of living off other's money, did you or did you not take an oath to the constitution?

Of course the penalty is exactly that a penalty for the infraction. Whether its a tail light out or running a stop sign. Don't do it. If you do then you may be charged that infraction which usually amounts to a dollar amount. That is then taken and out to other services needed. Obviously paying 100 for running a stop sign is meant as a deterrent. So hopefully next time you pay attention and don't cause an accident which causes thousands of dollars in damage and possible loss of life. What's your point?

I understand that justice is NOT a straight forward concept. There is no simple easy cookie cutter answer to it. There is no magic formula. Prison isn't always the answer monetary compensation isn't always the answer etc. Etc. You can cite your "theory" based on natural law all you want. I'm aware you fancy yourself a legal scholar, but news flash.... Non of that matters on the street where guys are committing armed robberies and raping people.

And yes in my life earning my money I've sworn to and have upheld the constitution. Don't you worry I've given more blood sweat and body fluids to my public service then I ever received money for. Which is exactly how I like it. And I'll continue to do so as long as I'm physically able to for whatever little money they deem I'm worth getting paid. I know exactly who I work for and I bust my a** for them more then you'll ever know or accept. I'd even help you in a second if you were up here and in need. No questions asked.

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[sudden valley gunner]

Of course the penalty is exactly that a penalty for the infraction. Whether its a tail light out or running a stop sign. Don't do it. If you do then you may be charged that infraction which usually amounts to a dollar amount. That is then taken and out to other services needed. Obviously paying 100 for running a stop sign is meant as a deterrent. So hopefully next time you pay attention and don't cause an accident which causes thousands of dollars in damage and possible loss of life. What's your point?

Finally! And so there could be no compensation fine to act as a deterrent for armed robbery?

I understand that justice is NOT a straight forward concept. There is no simple easy cookie cutter answer to it. There is no magic formula. Prison isn't always the answer monetary compensation isn't always the answer etc. Etc. You can cite your "theory" based on natural law all you want. I'm aware you fancy yourself a legal scholar, but news flash.... Non of that matters on the street where guys are committing armed robberies and raping people.

Actually justice is a pretty straightforward concept. There is a theory of justice that explains it pretty well.

Nice strawman, your non compensation program doesn't matter there either.

Yet here you fancy yourself a law man and you don't understand it at all.

And no I don't fancy myself a legal scholar, just someone who has actually decided to educate and learn about liberty and justice.

And yes in my life earning my money I've sworn to and have upheld the constitution. Don't you worry I've given more blood sweat and body fluids to my public service then I ever received money for. Which is exactly how I like it. And I'll continue to do so as long as I'm physically able to for whatever little money they deem I'm worth getting paid. I know exactly who I work for and I bust my a** for them more then you'll ever know or accept. I'd even help you in a second if you were up here and in need. No questions asked.

LOL..whatever they are paying you is too much. You need to stop. Since you took an oath you don't understand and refuse to uphold.

This fake I am doing this for the benefit of others line I am not buying at all.

You know people help each other all the time most of them don't rely on state costumes and badges to justify it either.

Nice to again see how you like to reassure your self in your superiority over those whom you "serve" because they didn't "serve".

 

[wimwag]

Finally! And so there could be no compensation fine to act as a deterrent for armed robbery?



Actually justice is a pretty straightforward concept. There is a theory of justice that explains it pretty well.

Nice strawman, your non compensation program doesn't matter there either.

Yet here you fancy yourself a law man and you don't understand it at all.

And no I don't fancy myself a legal scholar, just someone who has actually decided to educate and learn about liberty and justice.



LOL..whatever they are paying you is too much. You need to stop. Since you took an oath you don't understand and refuse to uphold.

This fake I am doing this for the benefit of others line I am not buying at all.

You know people help each other all the time most of them don't rely on state costumes and badges to justify it either.

Nice to again see how you like to reassure your self in your superiority over those whom you "serve" because they didn't "serve".

I've never seen him act that way. A bit arrogant and maybe he enjoys that he gets a free shot in with regards to over tightening handcuffs...but all that means is he's human.

 

[Primus]

Finally! And so there could be no compensation fine to act as a deterrent for armed robbery?



Actually justice is a pretty straightforward concept. There is a theory of justice that explains it pretty well.

Nice strawman, your non compensation program doesn't matter there either.

Yet here you fancy yourself a law man and you don't understand it at all.

And no I don't fancy myself a legal scholar, just someone who has actually decided to educate and learn about liberty and justice.



LOL..whatever they are paying you is too much. You need to stop. Since you took an oath you don't understand and refuse to uphold.

This fake I am doing this for the benefit of others line I am not buying at all.

You know people help each other all the time most of them don't rely on state costumes and badges to justify it either.

Nice to again see how you like to reassure your self in your superiority over those whom you "serve" because they didn't "serve".

There is no superiority in serving other people. Its actually quite humbling to accept it and embrace the fact that you live/work for others. I don't mean in a economic "I'll fix this you pay this" I mean actual hey anything you need I'm there. No set rate no set monetary job price. I don't charge anymore for running through backyards in the rain anymore then I do for helping push a stalled car from a busy intersection (did both just the other day in one shift). It's show up here I am what do u need? Thats how its SUPPOSED to be and is with everyone I know. I don't feel "superior" in anyway, but I will certainly defend myself and profession from guys who just spout off about things they know nothing of other then what they read on the internet.

In fact... If I recall correctly your the one who yet again brought up my "living off others" in this thread. Its damn near an obsession of yours.

I'm not the enemy. I'm not the boogey man. The rest of my coworkers are NOT the enemies either.

You would be quite pleased if you saw how often I try to meet and exceed peoples rights. But even if I introduced you with 100 people that could say that you'd never believe it because it would mean all your fear and loathing and bigotry is irrational (it certainly is).

There is a middle ground. I've tried several times on this forum to extend the olive branch. There doesn't have to "sides" to every issue or lines drawn in the sand over everything. The "us vs. Them" thing is played out and completely unnecessary.

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[sudden valley gunner]

There is no superiority in serving other people. Its actually quite humbling to accept it and embrace the fact that you live/work for others. I don't mean in a economic "I'll fix this you pay this" I mean actual hey anything you need I'm there. No set rate no set monetary job price. I don't charge anymore for running through backyards in the rain anymore then I do for helping push a stalled car from a busy intersection (did both just the other day in one shift). It's show up here I am what do u need? Thats how its SUPPOSED to be and is with everyone I know. I don't feel "superior" in anyway, but I will certainly defend myself and profession from guys who just spout off about things they know nothing of other then what they read on the internet.

In fact... If I recall correctly your the one who yet again brought up my "living off others" in this thread. Its damn near an obsession of yours.

I'm not the enemy. I'm not the boogey man. The rest of my coworkers are NOT the enemies either.

You would be quite pleased if you saw how often I try to meet and exceed peoples rights. But even if I introduced you with 100 people that could say that you'd never believe it because it would mean all your fear and loathing and bigotry is irrational (it certainly is).

There is a middle ground. I've tried several times on this forum to extend the olive branch. There doesn't have to "sides" to every issue or lines drawn in the sand over everything. The "us vs. Them" thing is played out and completely unnecessary.

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Yet you use your serving and me not in an ill fated attempt to prove you are better.....

Wow I help people all the time and don't charge for it.

Being a productive member of society and producing something provides more of a service than living off what others produce especially when that job entails fining people to pay for it's service and not based on justice.

You are not my personal enemy, In many ways you and many of your coworkers are the enemy of liberty, especially when you don't understand or ignore the constitution. Yet when it comes down to another BLM, you know which side you stand on and you know which side I stand on. Your side isn't with "the people".

LOL...you are way past any "middle ground". Olive branch of what? You want me to be silent in exposing unconstitutional laws and acts and those who are willing to carry out the tyranny? Nope won't do it, if that makes me your enemy, that's on you.

I notice more propping yourself up while demonizing another. Your protecting the rights you agree with does not erase the crime of you not protecting all of them.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

I've never seen him act that way. A bit arrogant and maybe he enjoys that he gets a free shot in with regards to over tightening handcuffs...but all that means is he's human.

He has a long history of touting his service as something special. Like his line above.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

So once again, I will ask a direct question on topic, especially to the oathtakers who support banning "felons" from guns.

Where in the constitution does it give the Feds the authority to do this? And how do you justify taking actions that are contrary to your oath of office?

 

[wimwag]

He has a long history of touting his service as something special. Like his line above.

And you have a long history of disrespecting the men and women who do the job you won't because you're afraid of the criticism guys like YOU throw at them.

I don't even like primus on a personal level but you're ** ***. You lay a broad blanket of hate across law enforcement. I can absolutely guarantee you that you have yet to experience a truly bad police officer, and I know exactly how bad they can get. Some of them don't just put on a police uniform, they also bang. I know men who do. Quit compaining. 90% of cops are honest down to earth people.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I'm in construction I've had lots of felons work for me including former drug users. They tend to be more loyal and honest to those they work for than "educated" blow hards who think the world owes them something.

I don't care if a person does drugs on Friday, come to work clean on Monday and carry on.

Again there are many ways of compensation, who am I to declare the "approved" method. This shows you and Primus's thinking, the answer to you guys is in the state and a set set of rules. Not one that is based on each situation.

Look how many felons work as cops, they haven't been convicted yet they commit murder, steal, rape (50% of prison rape is done by the guards), break law after law yet they get away with it.

For example if you insist the state be involved in the punishment program the felon can do work that gets overlooked by the state his wages garnished and given to the victims. They do it to divorced fathers all the time who have committed no crimes.

YOU two statist worked real hard at diverting and changing the question (meanwhile Primus uses the cop tactic of accusing me of owing him an answer) while not addressing my original point.

For some reason I doubt 50% of prison rape is by guards. Just let me challenge you on that number, I want see evidence on that.

I strongly doubt you're employing current hard drug users, you inserted the word "former" into your argument. Which I find believable. You are twisting what I said. If a hard drug users robs you, would you accept restitution in the form of hiring the same person who used violence to obtain from you funds to purchase mind altering substances to work at your job site?

I'm sure you hire great dedicated employees, I'm not questioning your current hiring practices, I'm am challenging the idea that the types of civil restitution you suggest are practical. And you've gone to great lengths to avoid answering the actual question asked.

I have good experience dealing with a current methamphetamine user, and his tweaker brother. When i find him so my friend can serve him another lawsuit should I point him your way to apply for work? He's pretty good at workmans comp fraud too if you hire those people as well :dude:

 

[Primus]

And you have a long history of disrespecting the men and women who do the job you won't because you're afraid of the criticism guys like YOU throw at them.

I don't even like primus on a personal level but you're an ass. You lay a broad blanket of hate across law enforcement. I can absolutely guarantee you that you have yet to experience a truly bad police officer, and I know exactly how bad they can get. Some of them don't just put on a police uniform, they also bang. I know men who do. Quit compaining. 90% of cops are honest down to earth people.

Hey I thought we were friends? Fine no beer for you then. Thats extra for me.

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[wimwag]

For some reason I doubt 50% of prison rape is by guards. Just let me challenge you on that number, I want see evidence on that.



I strongly doubt you're employing current hard drug users, you inserted the word "former" into your argument. Which I find believable. You are twisting what I said. If a hard drug users robs you, would you accept restitution in the form of hiring the same person who used violence to obtain from you funds to purchase mind altering substances to work at your job site?



I'm sure you hire great dedicated employees, I'm not questioning your current hiring practices, I'm am challenging the idea that the types of civil restitution you suggest are practical. And you've gone to great lengths to avoid answering the actual question asked.



I have good experience dealing with a current methamphetamine user, and his tweaker brother. When i find him so my friend can serve him another lawsuit should I point him your way to apply for work? He's pretty good at workmans comp fraud too if you hire those people as well :dude:

+1 lmao

 

[Grapeshot]

This surprised me!

--snipped--
Look how many felons work as cops, they haven't been convicted yet they commit murder, steal, rape (50% of prison rape is done by the guards), break law after law yet they get away with it.

For some reason I doubt 50% of prison rape is by guards. Just let me challenge you on that number, I want see evidence on that.
--snipped--

Most often, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics surveys, the rapists are corrections staff. The prisoners most at risk tend to be the weakest: women, gay men, juvenile offenders, the mentally disabled, the physically small and those new to life behind bars.
http://www.chron.com/opinion/editorials/article/Stopping-prison-rape-Rape-is-a-crime-1708265.php

Allegations of rape and sexual assault involving inmates are increasing, and nearly half those assaults are committed against prisoners by correctional officers, according to a new report issued by the Justice Department’s Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS).
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/1/26/guards-may-be-responsibleforhalfofprisonrapes.html