Rob Pincus self defense expert hates on Open Carry

[Packer fan]

Concealed Carry is BIG business. Training, CC holsters and permit fees are a multi-million dollar industry in the US. People involved in selling these goods and services are usually the loudest detractors of OC--even more so than the "anti's", because if everyone who wanted to carry for Self Defense just started OCing, they would be out millions of dollars...

ICE Training (Mr. Pincus's company) is based in New Jersey.

'nuff sed...

Looking through his YouTube library, he appears to be an opinionated, self-agrandizing, contentious, and pompous a$$hat. I wouldn't pay this guy to train someone how to correctly peel a banana...

I just had a debate or a discussion because he can't admit I out debated him in AAR facebook page in his video in CC at home. Is it faster to draw concealed or open? Even he proved in ideal situation OC is a .1 of a second faster, so what about when the attack is on?

My point is I find him to be as described above.

He is for the 2A as long as you do it his way. The biggest reason he doesn't like OC is fear of public opinion.

If you read this post please explain at what point is CC the advantage? Before the attack, after the attack, or during the attack, because we know that OC will never deter crime like it did in that George waffle house. Those men who were planning to rob the place should've have been better educated that the two men who were OC were at the disadvantage. Spread the news far and wide. Oh, and I'm uneducated and he is the professional. He is the reason why I stopped listening to AAR.

Sorry if this is considered a personal attack.

 

[rscottie]

<snip>

I think that the evidence of gun grabs, confrontations with law enforcement and general incidents overcomes the natural assumption that carrying a gun openly will help you AVOID conflict.

****

<snip>

-RJP

Yes you will find incidences where suspects have attempted to take a Leo's gun but that does not apply to civilian OC.

In the cases I have heard about where someone attempts to grab an officer's gun, the officer was speaking with a person suspected of committing a crime. The suspect gets nervous or realizes he is about to be arrested so he goes for the gun.

Law abiding citizens that OC will not be approaching bad guys and attempting to carry on conversations with them. They will be going about their business and doing their best to avoid conflict.

Law enforcement officers are paid to not avoid conflict and are at a much higher risk than the average citizen of someone trying to grab their firearm.

Will merely trying to avoid conflict work 100% of the time? No, of course not. But, if a bg starts trouble with a citizen that is open carrying and minding their own business, that bg is either mentally unstable or extremely stupid and should be considered a threat.

I like your video's, I just think you could open your mind to the positive aspects of OC a bit more.

 

[kcgunfan]

Kcgunfan, if you can post here, you can figure out how to Google Search ... There are many examples. My favorite is the neighborhood "gun guy" who was robbed of his OC gun at gun point by a guy who targeted him to add to his illegal gun collection.

...

-Rob

Thank you, I know how to use Google Search just fine. But, you are the one claiming that there are many examples. I'm honestly wondering if you have some that you can reference, or if you just make it up as you go along. At this point, making it up looks to be the more likely answer.

 

[Packer fan]

Thank you, I know how to use Google Search just fine. But, you are the one claiming that there are many examples. I'm honestly wondering if you have some that you can reference, or if you just make it up as you go along. At this point, making it up looks to be the more likely answer.

+1 http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2012/05/30/man-accused-of-stealing-gun-from-conceal-and-carry-holder/
AAR posted about a man who was CC and was rob of his firearm too, so where is the "advantage?" If someone will target you while OC they are going to target you while CC. If someone has the drop on you weather OC or CC there isn't much you can do unless you train for it but the same training can be applied to both CC and OC.

Target Focus Training teaches how to prevent gun grabbing.

I know this is going to bring up an emotional debate but this is only for example not politics: at what point was CC an advantage to George Zimmerman, was it before, after, or during the attack?

But please don't confuse me with the facts I have my premiss to hold on to.

Also in the video posted in the first opening of this thread, Rob mentions California as direct result of people OC unloaded guns and gives an extreme example.

1) that law was passed because the Ca legislature over looked that portion when they passed the CC laws. His buddy standing next to him states that he was against OC except where it is the only legal way to carry. I think every state, except Ill, now has some form of CC laws except Vermont but there you don't need a permission slip from the government to carry concealed, right? (INAL) Also is he saying that in states that such as Wi, Ky, and Mi where you need a permit to CC but not OC that he is fine with a person OC without the CC permit?

2) Anyone hear Oklahoma that recently passed OC? Rob should really be upset about this because it goes against his premiss.

3) How about Arizona that recently passed a law that says you don't need permission to carry but they offer a permit for travailing purposes?

4) Wisconsin's own CC law was a direct result of people OC around the state.

But again, don't confuse him with facts he is the professional.

 

[Aknazer]

Kcgunfan, if you can post here, you can figure out how to Google Search ... There are many examples. My favorite is the neighborhood "gun guy" who was robbed of his OC gun at gun point by a guy who targeted him to add to his illegal gun collection.

SFCret, " ending a discussion" with questions shows you true lack of interest in having a discussion. Sad.

AK, again, I don't believe that there is an advantage to OC for personal defense in a typical urban/suburban situation. I only have 4 or 5 minutes of airtime to teach important stuff... Not going to waste it faking a counter-point to my own position so that I appear "fair"... I'm not going to discuss the "possible" advantages f carrying a BB gun instead of a 9mm either. It may also be worth noting that I am unaware of any top level instructor who advocates OC over CC. Many offer the PC caveat that it might be an acceptable choice, but do ANY actually say it is better??

slow5, I still have no idea what you are trying to say specifically.... In regard to your last line: Everything is, De Facto, a personal choice... Tht is NOT a " position" that needs to be stated.... Unless you also need to state that your position is tht the sky is blue and grass is green ?

HJ, THANKS! I'm more of a nomadic, "show up occasionally" guy than a "stick around" type....

Mich, again, we agree on the social skills issue... Unfortunately, MANY OC'ers have failed this test with their appearance, lack of cooperation with LE and video-camera antics.... And they have turned many people against the concept entirely.

-Rob

Please provide a cite to this "neighborhood 'gun guy'" that got targeted for his OCed weapon. So far I've heard of all of three cases of a "gun grab." One was real (and the guy proceeded to display poor decision making skills by chasing after the guy after being disarmed). One was simply a robbery and the criminal didn't even know the person was OCing until after the crime (in other words, he wasn't targeted because he was OCing as people claim). And the third case that I have heard of was later found out to be a false police report (Dreamer directly contacted the PD to find out about the case and they responded with how the guy admitted to the false police report. It's somewhere on this forum), and I believe this to be the one you're talking about for the "gun guy."

As for "top level instructors" I haven't dealt with too many, but I'm yet to deal with one that was even willing to reasonably discuss the subject. In fact the last instructors that I even attempted to talk to banned me from their forums after I kept refuting what they were saying with actual facts and cites.

 

[protias]

Please provide a cite to this "neighborhood 'gun guy'" that got targeted for his OCed weapon. So far I've heard of all of three cases of a "gun grab." One was real (and the guy proceeded to display poor decision making skills by chasing after the guy after being disarmed). One was simply a robbery and the criminal didn't even know the person was OCing until after the crime (in other words, he wasn't targeted because he was OCing as people claim). And the third case that I have heard of was later found out to be a false police report (Dreamer directly contacted the PD to find out about the case and they responded with how the guy admitted to the false police report. It's somewhere on this forum), and I believe this to be the one you're talking about for the "gun guy."

As for "top level instructors" I haven't dealt with too many, but I'm yet to deal with one that was even willing to reasonably discuss the subject. In fact the last instructors that I even attempted to talk to banned me from their forums after I kept refuting what they were saying with actual facts and cites.

This is the only one I'm aware of.

 

[papa bear]

one of my first thought when i hear the erroneous argument, is how many Concealed carriers that have been robbed. my guess is that it has become so common it is not even mentioned any more. whenever i hear of a concealed carrier defending themselves with a firearm, i always think that if they were OC then they wouldn't have been a victim inn the first place

 

[Aknazer]

This is the only one I'm aware of.

This reads like the one that Dreamer (at least I'm pretty sure it was Dreamer who contacted the PD) followed up on and found out it was a false report. Hopefully he will see this and say if it's the same one.

 

[XD40coyote]

I recall 3 incidents. 1- guy in WI who lived in a rough 'hood and some thug got a jump on him and robbed him at gunpoint; 2- guy not using level 2 or better retentive holster who had some thug grab his gun and take it from him, and when he tried to grab the gun back the thug shot him; 3- most recent was OC/CC on campus activist who had a nutty thug try to grab the gun, but he was assisted by a passerby and they together thwarted the guy.

The 4th was in VA, and yes that is the one that was found to be where the "victim" lied.

Lessons learned- 3 incidents out of ? vs how many OC? And over 2- 3 years time?

Rob Pincus-Mich, again, we agree on the social skills issue... Unfortunately, MANY OC'ers have failed this test with their appearance, lack of cooperation with LE and video-camera antics.... And they have turned many people against the concept entirely.

Don't base the whole movement on a couple youtube yahoos, one guy in TN, and a guy idiotically OCing an EBR. The so-called video antics are mostly OCer's recording police who are trying to or are actively violating the person's rights. The video/audio is to protect the OCer and also to show when/where police overstep their "authoritay". I think it's pretty brave and AMERICAN of these OCers to stand up against such police oppression. In some cases OC is also used in protest, which puts it into the 1A category as well as the 2A category. VCDL uses this with SUCCESS in VA.

As to keeping creeps and criminals at bay, I do know of one gal in Knoxville TN ( who did a photo shoot with Oleg Volk as well) who on my "dare", decided to try OCing one day for her walk to/fro work ( she was working some IT job in a relaxed libertarian sounding workplace). She had only CC'd before, and was also being pestered/harrassed by homeless people along part of her route (she is young and pretty hot looking LOL). On the day she first OC'd, she reported to me that the annoying homeless people/bums noticed the gun right away and were totally quiet and completely left her alone. On subsequent days, same deal, they plain left her alone. She was quite happy to not have to put up with the pestering and harrassment anymore.

Now, I'll admit that I can be pretty damn silly with the concept of OC in regards to my art and imagination ( american Indian trickster Coyote OCing anyone?). In no way do I wish my work to give OC a bad rap. My humor is often misunderstood, as is the Trickster's. This is part of my "aspergers artist persona", so I don't expect "neurotypicals" to understand it. It in no way means I am irresponsible with guns, or that I will go out and OC irresponsibly, unless OCing whilst wearing a coyote hide headdress counts as that. Or bringing a taxidermy coyote mount to an OC BBQ...

 

[Packer fan]

"As to keeping creeps and criminals at bay, I do know of one gal in Knoxville TN ( who did a photo shoot with Oleg Volk as well) who on my "dare", decided to try OCing one day for her walk to/fro work ( she was working some IT job in a relaxed libertarian sounding workplace). She had only CC'd before, and was also being pestered/harrassed by homeless people along part of her route (she is young and pretty hot looking LOL). On the day she first OC'd, she reported to me that the annoying homeless people/bums noticed the gun right away and were totally quiet and completely left her alone. On subsequent days, same deal, they plain left her alone. She was quite happy to not have to put up with the pestering and harrassment anymore." XD40COYOTE


My wife has the same things happen to her. She has had men walk away from her once they saw the gun, but most of the time it's the reaction of don't mess with her. All the guys respect my wife more knowing she does carry.

But don't confuse the experts with facts (they are educated and you are not) they are so intrenched into their ideology that can't admit they maybe wrong without loosing face. As said before I don't have a problem with a person teaching and believing CC is the best way or the only way to carry but I have heard and read these experts bash OC as a whole. Name calling is the lowest form of arguments any 3 year old can do it.

And stil the basic question that has to be answered is at what point does CC become a tactical advantage, before the attack, after the attack, or during the attack?

If a person was going to attack you while OC they will attack you while CC but the revers isn't true.

The real reason if political fear, but let's not get to the heart of the problem.

 

[jimpen]

I'm left-handed and have long arms. If I OC, I do it with a tactical holster that is down several inches below the pockets in my jeans or a shoulder holster. About the only way I can do good CC with a full frame 1911 is an IWB is a cross mount holster on the right side back. Even with a small frame 9MM for CC there is not a really comfortable position that is a direct draw from my strong side.

So my draw times from CC are always going to be in the .5 seconds longer range no matter how much I practice. With OC, I drop my arm, flick the snap open and draw from the tactical holster, and take a half step to be in a Weaver.

Added in, my 1911 has a laser that is triggered off of holding the grip. The 9MM -- I have to touch the trigger to activate the laser.

Other thoughts:

I have seen several of Yeager's video. Multiple times he has put live camera people down range during live fire tactical training with apparent civilians. The military doesn't do it, that I know of. LEO training doesn't do it. You do not ever know if the gun will misfire, a round could fragment, a twitch or fit will overcome someone, you don't know if a bird or bee will sting someone, or any of the other possibilities. I know most of the items I mentioned aren't high on the probability charts, but why take the chance?

I wouldn't trust Yeager's opinion on whether it is day or night because of Yeager's decision to endanger people unnecessarily.

 

[davidmcbeth]

Do both .. CC and OC ...

 

[scott58dh]

Do both .. CC and OC ...

Ditto davidmcbeth ! Whichever is convenient for the situation I find myself in.

Speaking of Convenience, I have a question,,, just an observation here after viewing Mr. Rob Pincus' youtube OC/CC vid.

*Presuming*,,, Mr. Pincus habitually carries *2* holsters, (as seen in video, 1 @ APPENDIX & 1 @ 4:00) does he switch back & forth all day long to achieve Maximum Unholstering capability?

Coming from an "EXPERT" and all, carrying ones firearm @ the ***APPENDIX*** position in the home scenario which he discussed, IMHO , Does NOT appear to be a Wise position to carry.

Case in point, " I'm sitting on the couch watching the tube, reading, eating a chili dog,,, whatever, and BAM!!! the door flies open."

In mid-bite of my meal, what am I going to do?

"Excuse me Mr. BG, give me a moment whilst I stand up to gain easier access to my firearm which is being shoved into my crotch by my MANLY *6-Pack* Gut."

Sound logical to YOU ? I Didn't think so.

Also, what about while driving ? APPENDIX CARRY ? Not for ME Thank you very much, Sir.

So, in closing, whether if I'm OCing or CCing, MY Firearm is STRAGECIALLY LOCATED 'twixed 2 & 4 O'clock, adjusted accordingly depending on Standing, Sitting or Laying down.

 

[Aknazer]

Ditto davidmcbeth ! Whichever is convenient for the situation I find myself in.

Speaking of Convenience, I have a question,,, just an observation here after viewing Mr. Rob Pincus' youtube OC/CC vid.

*Presuming*,,, Mr. Pincus habitually carries *2* holsters, (as seen in video, 1 @ APPENDIX & 1 @ 4:00) does he switch back & forth all day long to achieve Maximum Unholstering capability?

Coming from an "EXPERT" and all, carrying ones firearm @ the ***APPENDIX*** position in the home scenario which he discussed, IMHO , Does NOT appear to be a Wise position to carry.

Case in point, " I'm sitting on the couch watching the tube, reading, eating a chili dog,,, whatever, and BAM!!! the door flies open."

In mid-bite of my meal, what am I going to do?

"Excuse me Mr. BG, give me a moment whilst I stand up to gain easier access to my firearm which is being shoved into my crotch by my MANLY *6-Pack* Gut."

Sound logical to YOU ? I Didn't think so.

Also, what about while driving ? APPENDIX CARRY ? Not for ME Thank you very much, Sir.

So, in closing, whether if I'm OCing or CCing, MY Firearm is STRAGECIALLY LOCATED 'twixed 2 & 4 O'clock, adjusted accordingly depending on Standing, Sitting or Laying down.

This is really going to depend on the person and the holster used. Personally I have no problem drawing my gun while in a sitting/laying position and with the weapon in the southpaw appendix position. But I also don't have a gut to get in the way (I have a 32" waiste on a bad day). Now my IWB is harder than my OWB holster, but not to the point I would consider it non-viable. As for holsters, the IWB is one of the nylon Blackhawk IWBs while the OWB is the Blackhawk Serpa.

 

[77zach]

CC vs OC

Well, this is like the 100th thread I've read on this debate on this site and pro CC sites. Despite not being a self-defense teacher, I just can't understand the CC only side. For the average person, in average circumstances, OC makes more sense to me from a self defense point of view. There are also comfort and educational considerations that IMO favor OC as well.

 

[davidmcbeth]

I took a training course from Combat Hard this past weekend. It was at least 3x harder drawing a concealed firearm compared to one carried openly (even with retention). I had a hard time pulling my shirt up and drawing my concealed blue gun.

Bingo, you have learned your lesson well. I just watched a Naked Gun movie and this scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwM7NgPE5lw



shows it all, hilariously

 

[scott58dh]

Bingo, you have learned your lesson well. I just watched a Naked Gun movie and this scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwM7NgPE5lw



shows it all, hilariously

Just in case anyone is interested, here's the REAL ( meaning more BLOOD !!! ) version !


[video=youtube;QJpRSf4q-hI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJpRSf4q-hI[/video]

 

[golddigger14s]

Are there any horses left?

 

[Brimstone Baritone]

sFCRetired, some of your arguments barely deserve a witty retort. But, since you are retired, I'll suggest you do more research on the things you are taking about.... I'm ignoring your points 3 and 5 because they are irrational.

What a well constructed, and well reasoned argument. You sir, are a god among men.

I just found out that Mr. Pincus is associated with Crossbreed Holsters. I know what brand of holster I won't be buying in the future.

 

[bellyfat]

Let us not forget Rob is former law enforcement. He is one of those types that believe us "normal" citizens should seek government approval before exercising our "god given rights." Just listen to him for a few hours and it is not hard to see his view's and understanding of constitutional liberties. There is no "but" in the Second Amendment. Anyone that believes we should not have the right to openly carry a weapon obviously does not truly support the 2A. If I am remembering correctly Rob started training law enforcement, and then moved to citizens once CCarry went mainstream. It is extremely obvious that some are in this business for the money, and some are in it because they truly believe in the 2A and want people to have every advantage when dealing with armed aggressors. If you truly want people to get training to increase their ability to survive in a deadly force scenario, it should not matter how they choose to carry their weapons.

If open carry is such a horrible idea, why does law enforcement and military do so? Because it is a deterrent, and your weapon can be accessed much more quickly when your draw is not hindered with clothing.

Why does Rob and the Nudge speak out against OC so sternly? Because I guarantee they are well paid by manufacturers of cc gear and apparel. Both of these men also qualify for leosa protections, so they are above us normal folks! They have the LEO mindset that a MINORITY of our law enforcement have; that we must obtain permission, but they should not.

i have a cc but , fore some strange reason, my gun gets exposed when there are suspect foke around.