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Michael Brown unarmed shooting in Ferguson, MO

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Primus

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Firearms Iinstuctor

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He was shot 4 times to the right arm, palm facing forward and 1 to the right eye and one to the head.

QUOTE]

Means the officer was breaking his shooting grip to the left of him self and the right of the target. The vertical stringing of the shots could mean a couple of things.

The officer was anticipating recoil thus shooting up and down or was not compensating for the movement of his target.

Very few people get actual live fire practice with handguns at moving targets more so at targets charging them.

Most ranges find it difficult and expensive to have moving targets available.
 
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OC for ME

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The comment was made that hands are not weapons under the Missouri statutes. Definition of WEAPON:1weap·on
noun \ˈwe-pən\

: something that is used for fighting or attacking someone or for defending yourself when someone is attacking you. <snip>
There are definitions, then there are definitions.

578.435. 1. As used in this section and section 578.437, the term "weapon" means any firearm, concealable firearm, blackjack, explosive weapon, gas gun, knife, knuckles, machine gun, projectile weapon, rifle, short barrel, shotgun, or switchblade knife, as defined in section 571.010.

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5780000435.HTM

571.010. As used in this chapter, the following terms shall mean:

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000010.HTM
 

countryclubjoe

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Seven shots, 4 in the arm, 2 in the head, 1 in the upper torso,1 head shot while his head was tilted downward.

The officer is a coward and a murderer. If a citizen massacred another citizen in the same fashion, said citizen would be looking at life in prison without parole. There is simply no justification for this murderers actions.

My .02

Regards

CCJ
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

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I think to much is being made of fact that Mr. Brown was unarmed.

People are very capable of inflicting great bodily harm or death with the feet and hands given the right circumstances.

Would a reasonable officer under the same circumstances believe that he was endanger of great bodily harm or death under the same circumstances.

If yes then it was a justifiable shooting. If no then it was not.
If the person shot would have had a weapon it just means that the justification is a bit easier to prove.

Reasonable officers and citizens know that a weapon is capable of inflecting great bodily harm or death.
But having a weapon doesn't automatically means you can shoot the carrier.

If one waits for the harm to be done it can be to late for the person being attacked to properly defend ones self.
If one acts to soon with to much force then one faces the chance of being guilty of committing a crime.


Some times it is a very fine line and not very clear line some times if a act is justifiable or not.

In this case one has to ask them selves would you allow your self to be beat on by a 6'4" 290lb assailant and what action would you take to stop the attack and then how close would you allow that person get before you took just action to stop that person.

Was the officer in danger? Did the officer reasonably believe that he was being attacked? Did he believe that if that attack happened could great bodily harm or death result.

It comes down to the average officer and average person not the fact that you have a 10th degree black belt and your in super good physical shape and can take care of it with your bare hands or you think you can.

But to 6 or 12 people sitting on Grand jury looking at all the facts then to another 12 if charges are filed.

Just some things to think about.
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

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Seven shots, 4 in the arm, 2 in the head, 1 in the upper torso,1 head shot while his head was tilted downward.

The officer is a coward and a murderer. If a citizen massacred another citizen in the same fashion, said citizen would be looking at life in prison without parole. There is simply no justification for this murderers actions.

My .02

Regards

CCJ

The number of shots really doesn't matter it is if those shots were Justified.

I glad that you are very capable of handling a situation like this with out harm coming to any body.

Please take all your skills and knowledge and start training officers and citizens in how to do so.

There is lots of money to be made doing so.
 

OC for ME

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Law enforcement officer's use of force in making an arrest.

563.046. 1. A law enforcement officer need not retreat or desist from efforts to effect the arrest, or from efforts to prevent the escape from custody, of a person he reasonably believes to have committed an offense because of resistance or threatened resistance of the arrestee. In addition to the use of physical force authorized under other sections of this chapter, he is, subject to the provisions of subsections 2 and 3, justified in the use of such physical force as he reasonably believes is immediately necessary to effect the arrest or to prevent the escape from custody.

2. The use of any physical force in making an arrest is not justified under this section unless the arrest is lawful or the law enforcement officer reasonably believes the arrest is lawful.
3. A law enforcement officer in effecting an arrest or in preventing an escape from custody is justified in using deadly force only
(1) When such is authorized under other sections of this chapter; or
(2) When he reasonably believes that such use of deadly force is immediately necessary to effect the arrest and also reasonably believes that the person to be arrested
(a) Has committed or attempted to commit a felony; or
(b) Is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon; or
(c) May otherwise endanger life or inflict serious physical injury unless arrested without delay.
Justification for the cop's actions will come down to convincing a GJ, if a GJ is empaneled, that Brown's acts amounted to a felony or misdemeanor crime.

Any cop in MO can arrest for any crime or infraction. A citizen may not resist their arrest.
 

wittmeba

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Here's a 4th eyewitness who also claims that Brown was being shot at as he ran away. He also thinks Brown was shot in the back. Man what a coincidence...

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...-brown-shooting-ferguson-mo-article-1.1905189

I agree with Primus - I don't think so. He was still in his apartment when he heard the shots, looked out, took picture through the fence and was police-taped in his apartment.

The Missouri man reported that he heard at least seven gunshots and looked out to see the body of the 18-year-old lying face down in the street.

... snip ...Two minutes later, he tweeted a picture, through fence posts, of the 18-year-old lying face down in the street as two cops stood over Brown’s body.

“There is police tape all over my building. I am stuck in her omg.”
 
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Kopis

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autopsy shows all front entry including two heads shots. one was angled down which could be from him on his knees or him having his head down charging the officer. im sure forensics will be plotting every bullet angle.

Why three autopsies anyway?
 
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357SigFan

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The "witness reports" do not claim that he was only shot once he "raised his hands in surrender." What are you even talking about? Not all the shots happened at once, and I'm fairly certain that no one claimed they all happened at once. Not even the accomplice to the robbery.

'Hands up Don't shoot!' Ring a bell? Just one link from quick google search: http://www.vox.com/cards/mike-brown-protests-ferguson-missouri/mike-brown-shooting-facts-details

I think the only safe thing to say is based on your last few comments your total lack of logical thinking should not be interpreted as fact.

If you say so :rolleyes:

Aren't those gunshots to the head? You ever heard of anyone being shot in the head then running 35 feet and turning around? What about someone killing another person without a weapon from 35 feet away? Me neither.

How about Someone charging, and as a result of being shot stumbles or otherwise starts to go down? Let's say Brown struck Wilson in the scuffle in the cruiser (http://www.kmov.com/special-coverag...oting-suffered-facial-injuries-271079471.html), then ran. Now let's say Wilson pursued Brown (as it seems may be within department policy), and ordered him to freeze, but rather than do that, Brown opted to charge Wilson. Is Wilson supposed to wait until he's assaulted again to defend himself?

You say that no one says Brown 'Charged' Wilson - the unknown person in the background of the video indicates that Brown did 'run at' Wilson - 'Charged', 'Ran At' - same thing in the context of the situation. Assuming Brown was 'Running at' Wilson, I doubt it was to give him a hug. :rolleyes:

Code:
 From Mirriam-Webster: a (1) :  a violent rush forward (as to attack) <the charge of the brigade> (2) :

What was the position of Brown's body? Was it in a position that might indicate he was stationary and just crumpled in place, or was it in a position that indicates he did or may have had forward momentum? Any lacerations that would indicate that he hit the asphalt while he had forward momentum? The shot to the top of the head would seem to indicate that he likely did have momentum and fell/stumbled - the only other way for Brown to have been shot there would be if Wilson was standing over Brown. If Brown was surrendering, I could believe him being stationary and raising his hands, but I highly doubt he would have bowed his head in such a way that would have allowed the hit.

Missouri law states that you must be in reasonable fear for your life to deploy deadly force - A 6'4" 300# man that just struck me in the head, then decided to charge me, would qualify.

Code:
563.031. 1. A person may, subject to the provisions of subsection 2 of this section, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he or she reasonably believes such force to be necessary to defend himself or herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful force by such other person,unless:
-snip-
 2. A person may not use deadly force upon another person under the circumstances specified in subsection 1 of this section unless:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such deadly force is necessary to protect himself, or herself or her unborn child, or another against death, serious physical injury, or any forcible felony;

Everyone's making a lot of noise about the fact the Brown was 35' from the cruiser where he went down (I haven't noticed any reports of how far away from the cruiser Wilson was when he fired). I looked around for stats on how long it would take to cross that distance - Most of what I fond was related to athletes and a poor time for a man to run 35 meters is 5.6 seconds - now I realize that Brown wasn't an athlete, as are none of us here, most likely, so lets tone that down and assume the average person can cross 10 meters (32.8 feet) in 5.6 seconds. If Brown did charge Wilson, even if he started his charge from farther away, which he likely would have, that doesn't give a whole lot of time to react.

In fact, 3 witnesses agree that Brown was shot at once while the officer was still in the car, and that Brown ran away while being shot at, then turned around to surrender and was killed. THREE EYEWITNESSES! And just because the officer didn't hit Brown in the back doesn't mean that he didn't shoot at him while he had his back turned, which would explain why someone would think he was shot in the back if they saw it happen.

Three witnesses from the neighborhood - This ENTIRE thing has next to nothing to do with the fact that a police officer shot an 'Unarmed' man - it has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that a WHITE police officer shot a BLACK man. Do you REALLY think the people in the neighborhood are going to report the truth if it backs up Wilsons story and paints Brown as the aggressor? We have audio in a video of an unidentified individual in the background indicating that Brown did charge/run at Wilson, however, you can bet that person won't come forward and offer an official statement - to do so would make him a snitch and place the same target on his back as Wilson has on his. I would be incredibly shocked if anyone from the neighborhood came forward and offered a statement indicating that Brown charged Wilson after being ordered to freeze, even if that's the 100% truth. I wouldn't be surprised if he's in danger for just having been caught saying it, if anyone can identify him.

The fact that the first shot (maybe two) were inside the cruiser has never been disputed. As far as the claims that Wilson was running after Brown and shooting, where are all the shell casings? Are they in a 'line' indicating Wilson was moving and shooting, or are they all in one area indicating Wilson was stationary? We don't even know how many shots were actually fired. I don't believe that evidence has come out.

You don't seem to be from the area, but shootings in North St Louis aren't uncommon at all - but it's all 'Black on Black' and usually barely gets a 20 second blurb on the evening news. Generally, nothing comes of it as no one is going to snitch.

Seriously, you are so incredibly biased it's abhorrent.

That's rich, coming from you. It seems most of the people in this thread are a two-bit lynch mob salivating at the thought of Wilson swinging from a tree at the end of a rope. You guys pegged Wilson as guilty of cold blooded murder before the shell casings even cooled off. Sounds a lot like another 'White on Black' shooting in the not so distant past.... I sure am glad people like you aren't in charge of justice - Can you say Judge Dredd? Ironic screen name, BTW, considering you seem to be interested in anything but the truth. The fact of the matter is NONE of us has enough information to determine Wilsons guilt or innocence. Although as of now, it's looking more like this may have been justified, I haven't formed a final opinion either way because there just isn't enough information to do so. And I'm 'incredibly biased'. :rolleyes:
 
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OC for ME

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Code:
563.031. 1. A person may, subject to the provisions of subsection 2 of this section, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he or she reasonably believes such force to be necessary to defend himself or herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful force by such other person,unless:
-snip-
 2. A person may not use deadly force upon another person under the circumstances specified in subsection 1 of this section unless:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such deadly force is necessary to protect himself, or herself or her unborn child, or another against death, serious physical injury, or any forcible felony;
There is a exemption for cops in 563.031.1 that refers you to 563.046 for a cop's use of force.
 

WalkingWolf

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It will take a while for the feds autopsy, but then we will know a lot more. IMO Obama is right on the money with this reaction. IT IS the job of the federal government to investigate possible civil rights violations by police. We know the police most times are very very very biased, we can see that right here. I witnessed from comrades the same excuses and denials about the Rodney King beatings. Prosecutors usually have to be drug kicking and screaming to get them to file charges on police. While GZ was clearly innocent it is not even close to the same as this incident, but without the fed pushing there would have been no charges.

As far as the shots to the arm they make sense combined with the shots to the head. By the one video witness put up, the officer missed several times, he was no marksman. He should have been aiming center mass(by training) to stop a charging perpetrator, but instead he was so scared he went for a head shot. Again common sense does not weigh out here. NO center mass hits and hits to the head, plus biceps on arms, use some thinking skills. Most likely his arms were raised, and the officer was going for the certain kill shot/head shot. Sorry grape but IMO as I see it for now, unless PROVED otherwise, it looks like a execution.

BTW the witness never said who was coming at who, we already knew by facts the officer was coming at(chasing) Brown.

How does a person with even minimal training MISS the center mass on someone the size of Big Mike, but manage to shoot the head, and arms.? And the arm hits clearly correspond with shots aimed for the head with arms raised.
 
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Primus

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'Hands up Don't shoot!' Ring a bell? Just one link from quick google search: http://www.vox.com/cards/mike-brown-protests-ferguson-missouri/mike-brown-shooting-facts-details



If you say so :rolleyes:



How about Someone charging, and as a result of being shot stumbles or otherwise starts to go down? Let's say Brown struck Wilson in the scuffle in the cruiser (http://www.kmov.com/special-coverag...oting-suffered-facial-injuries-271079471.html), then ran. Now let's say Wilson pursued Brown (as it seems may be within department policy), and ordered him to freeze, but rather than do that, Brown opted to charge Wilson. Is Wilson supposed to wait until he's assaulted again to defend himself?

You say that no one says Brown 'Charged' Wilson - the unknown person in the background of the video indicates that Brown did 'run at' Wilson - 'Charged', 'Ran At' - same thing in the context of the situation. Assuming Brown was 'Running at' Wilson, I doubt it was to give him a hug. :rolleyes:

Code:
 From Mirriam-Webster: a (1) :  a violent rush forward (as to attack) <the charge of the brigade> (2) :

Missouri law states that you must be in reasonable fear for your life to deploy deadly force - A 6'4" 300# man that just struck me in the head, then decided to charge me, would qualify.

Code:
563.031. 1. A person may, subject to the provisions of subsection 2 of this section, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he or she reasonably believes such force to be necessary to defend himself or herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful force by such other person,unless:
-snip-
 2. A person may not use deadly force upon another person under the circumstances specified in subsection 1 of this section unless:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such deadly force is necessary to protect himself, or herself or her unborn child, or another against death, serious physical injury, or any forcible felony;

Everyone's making a lot of noise about the fact the Brown was 35' from the cruiser where he went down (I haven't noticed any reports of how far away from the cruiser Wilson was when he fired). I looked around for stats on how long it would take to cross that distance - Most of what I fond was related to athletes and a poor time for a man to run 35 meters is 5.6 seconds - now I realize that Brown wasn't an athlete, as are none of us here, most likely, so lets tone that down and assume the average person can cross 10 meters (32.8 feet) in 5.6 seconds. If Brown did charge Wilson, even if he started his charge from farther away, which he likely would have, that doesn't give a whole lot of time to react.



Three witnesses from the neighborhood - This ENTIRE thing has next to nothing to do with the fact that a police officer shot an 'Unarmed' man - it has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that a WHITE police officer shot a BLACK man. Do you REALLY think the people in the neighborhood are going to report the truth if it backs up Wilsons story and paints Brown as the aggressor? We have audio in a video of an unidentified individual in the background indicating that Brown did charge/run at Wilson, however, you can bet that person won't come forward and offer an official statement - to do so would make him a snitch and place the same target on his back as Wilson has on his. I would be incredibly shocked if anyone from the neighborhood came forward and offered a statement indicating that Brown charged Wilson after being ordered to freeze, even if that's the 100% truth. I wouldn't be surprised if he's in danger for just having been caught saying it, if anyone can identify him.

The fact that the first shot (maybe two) were inside the cruiser has never been disputed. As far as the claims that Wilson was running after Brown and shooting, where are all the shell casings? Are they in a 'line' indicating Wilson was moving and shooting, or are they all in one area indicating Wilson was stationary? We don't even know how many shots were actually fired. I don't believe that evidence has come out.

You don't seem to be from the area, but shootings in North St Louis aren't uncommon at all - but it's all 'Black on Black' and usually barely gets a 20 second blurb on the evening news. Generally, nothing comes of it as no one is going to snitch.



That's rich, coming from you. It seems most of the people in this thread are a two-bit lynch mob salivating at the thought of Wilson swinging from a tree at the end of a rope. You guys pegged Wilson as guilty of cold blooded murder before the shell casings even cooled off. Sounds a lot like another 'White on Black' shooting in the not so distant past.... I sure am glad people like you aren't in charge of justice - Can you say Judge Dredd? Ironic screen name, BTW, considering you seem to be interested in anything but the truth. The fact of the matter is NONE of us has enough information to determine Wilsons guilt or innocence. Although as of now, it's looking more like this may have been justified, I haven't formed a final opinion either way because there just isn't enough information to do so. And I'm 'incredibly biased'. :rolleyes:

Watching the forensic pathologist that browns family hired talking right now.

He just said that brow had facial abrasions from hitting the ground going forward.

Just prior to statement some asked "could you tell if he was charging". He stated he couldnt say for sure yet but that if he was then he would fall FORWARD...

Also, right this second his assistant (dude in white polo) just said the two head wounds were LAST shots.

So dude rushes head first gets shot 4 times in arm/chest because arm is swinging in stride... Doesn't stop until he gets shot in head. Then he falls forward and slams his face...

Does what the forensic pathologist count as facts yet? So much for on knees giving up and shot in back...

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WalkingWolf

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Again no torso shots to vital organs! This officer has to be one of the biggest morons to put on a badge and uniform. I also wonder about those that have not got the intelligence to pick up on this CLEAR fact.
 

357SigFan

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There is a exemption for cops in 563.031.1 that refers you to 563.046 for a cop's use of force.

Granted;

If Brown was charging Wilson after having struck him, then it could be argued that 563.046 3.2(c) would apply.


Code:
Law enforcement officer's use of force in making an arrest.

563.046. 1. A law enforcement officer need not retreat or desist from efforts to effect the arrest, or from efforts to prevent the escape from custody, of a person he reasonably believes to have committed an offense because of resistance or threatened resistance of the arrestee. In addition to the use of physical force authorized under other sections of this chapter, he is, subject to the provisions of subsections 2 and 3, justified in the use of such physical force as he reasonably believes is immediately necessary to effect the arrest or to prevent the escape from custody.

2. The use of any physical force in making an arrest is not justified under this section unless the arrest is lawful or the law enforcement officer reasonably believes the arrest is lawful.

3. A law enforcement officer in effecting an arrest or in preventing an escape from custody is justified in using deadly force only

(1) When such is authorized under other sections of this chapter; or

(2) When he reasonably believes that such use of deadly force is immediately necessary to effect the arrest and also reasonably believes that the person to be arrested

(a) Has committed or attempted to commit a felony; or

(b) Is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon; or

(c) May otherwise endanger life or inflict serious physical injury unless arrested without delay.

4. The defendant shall have the burden of injecting the issue of justification under this section.

Again no torso shots to vital organs! This officer has to be one of the biggest morons to put on a badge and uniform. I also wonder about those that have not got the intelligence to pick up on this CLEAR fact.

Not sure I'd qualify that as evidence - the shots to the arm could be construed as aiming for center mass and pulling left. Shooting at a piece of paper and shooting at a person, charging or otherwise, are NOT the same thing. Not even close. I would be surprised if any 'normal' person could shoot as well in a stressful situation like this event as they can at the range shooting at a piece of paper. Let's say Brown WAS charging Wilson, Wilson was trying to aim center mass, and Brown started to stumble or otherwise go down while Wilson was firing - Where could that place the top of Browns head? Right in the line of fire.
 
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Primus

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Who says police can't shoot? Granted this guy was like Andre the giant but he was probably moving at some point. Even if officer missed 2 shots and landed 6... 2 out 4 were head shots and 2 out of four were center mass (chest and upper arm). Not bad... Especially getting his faced smashed in by the gentle giant.

On a serious note... If the guy had stopped after the first 4 shots then he wouldnt have needed the last two. That actually shows restraint. Meaning he didn't just go for the head first (ACCORDING TO PATHOLOGIST). He **** center mass and dude kept coming. Raised his group up slightly til the guy stopped.

Tueller drill anyone? Added twist... Have the biggest dude you know punch you in the face then do the drill. See your grouping...

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WalkingWolf

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He completely missed center mass, as in NOT AIMING for center mass while supposedly being charged. Instead went for head shots probably emptying a full magazine clearly endangering other people. Or do you not realize that bullets missed can still kill or maim?

The cop was/is a MORON! He screwed up the beginning of the stop, and he screwed up the ending of the stop. He didn't miss the center mass, he was never aiming for it. IMO does not make the slightest bit of sense.

At the very least the MORON should be fired!
 
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