March on Washington 07-04-2013

[BB62]

http://www.governamerica.com/opinio...ing-on-washington-with-your-weapons-stay-home

Thinking of marching on Washington with guns? Stay home!...

I agree with SVG: "I at this juncture am not willing to endorse or jump on board, at the same time I have my reservations about judging their actions as wrong", but in reading the article you posted it's interesting to see the parallels in language or mindset between (I imagine) what some of the colonists believed and what some believe now.

I found this line particularly interesting/disturbing: "The feds are not going to listen to you. They don't care what you think. They've demonstrated that countless times."


P.S. - You might want to consider taking some of the extraneous carriage returns (!) out of your post, rather than simply cutting and pasting...

 

[ron73440]

If we ever arrive at a when-in-the-course-of-human-events moment, you will have no doubt where I stand. We aren't there yet. This stupidity on the bridge may end up forcing us there, but we ain't there yet.

If this march forces us to a "when-in-the-course-of-human-events moment", then I would say we are a lot further down the road to oppression than most people are willing to believe.

I'm not sure this is necessary, but if I was home, I'd really be looking into the leader and intent behind it, and would probably join in.

 

[Tucker6900]

I'm going to weigh in simply on the intellectual merits of this as an action, not necessarily what the action is per say.

1. What are the desired outcomes? The best that can happen is that nobody gets hurt or arrested (iow, we don't see mass arrests or the start of Civil War Deux). It goes downhill very quickly from that point though. So the very best is hoping you make it home alive and not in a paddy wagon.

2. Do the goals justify the risks of the outcomes? Well, see, that is the big question isn't it? What are the goals of this? From the 10,000 foot level, we're winning the war on this. The liberal controlled Senate caved on every single measure they put forward. Any bans/legislation is DOA in the House. We're winning. A mass demonstration, armed, then serves what purpose? What are we asking them to do, that they have not done already (e.g. - reject gun control bills)? Simply put, there is no actual goal here outside of "look at us!". What are they going to be chanting and demanding, assuming they're not either mowed down or mass arrested, thus losing their right to own a firearm for the rest of their lives?

As Sun Tzu said: "He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight."

Ideally any kind of mass demonstration of this nature would be better reserved for when we actually see the tide turning against us. When we're winning, it does nothing but feed propaganda to the opposing side and risks knee jerk "emergency" legislation that WILL be voted on in the affirmative by politicians who are right now on our side of the issue.

As an analog, this is like a labor union going on a full strike after winning all of their contract demands from their employer. It makes no sense at any level.

From the entirety of your post, you obviously still believe this is about gun rights alone. We have been making steps in the right direction, but most states still require permission to exercise our 2nd Amendment rights.

I feel like I have said it one hundred times, this is about more than just RKBA.

I fully support this CONSTITUTIONAL EXERCISE!

 

[eye95]

If this march forces us to a "when-in-the-course-of-human-events moment", then I would say we are a lot further down the road to oppression than most people are willing to believe.

I'm not sure this is necessary, but if I was home, I'd really be looking into the leader and intent behind it, and would probably join in.

And we are not nearly as far down the road as some would have us believe. Again, unlike the last time a shot was heard 'round the world, no one is marching on us, trying to take away our ability to deal with the course of human events.

Instead, this time, the folks on the bridge are the provocateurs!

 

[Tucker6900]

I found this line particularly interesting/disturbing: "The feds are not going to listen to you. They don't care what you think. They've demonstrated that countless times."

Exactly my point. How many more "countless times" are we going to allow them to ignore us?

I do not want to see any more blood shed. Either by our government, or from us. I do not want any of these participants to be arrested, shot, or tased. I have fears about what will happen, as I am sure Mr. Kokesh and his group share, but if not now, when?

And we are not nearly as far down the road as some would have us believe. Again, unlike the last time a shot was heard 'round the world, no one is marching on us, trying to take away our ability to deal with the course of human events.

Instead, this time, the folks on the bridge are the provocateurs!

Eye, you say this is not the time. When, in your opinion, is the time for this? What else has to happen to the American people? Do we wait for them to come knocking for our guns? Do we wait for them to shut down forums likes this one for talking about this? Do we wait for the dollar to actually get to zero?

Or do we do something about it now?

If the reason for this march was only about RKBA, I would not be as forward as I am regarding this event, because in that arena, our legislators are doing the right thing.

 

[Thundar]

And we are not nearly as far down the road as some would have us believe. Again, unlike the last time a shot was heard 'round the world, no one is marching on us, trying to take away our ability to deal with the course of human events.

Instead, this time, the folks on the bridge are the provocateurs!

Ahhh, but that is your unsubstantiated opinion. What we have here is a way to verify your assertion.

March through Washington, DC visibly armed and measure the response by the Federal Government. If the response is to respect the right of the people to 1) peaceably assemble, and 2) Bear Arms - then your assumption is correct. If on the other hand the Feds react violently or threaten violence to the exercise of fundamental rights, then you are obviously wrong.

This is the point of the march. Not to threaten the Feds, but to exercise their God given right. This practice of non-violent protest is commendable and exactly on point.

You see, the important part about fundamental rights is that their existence is all the reason one needs to exercise them.

Hyperbole and hypothetical down sides are simply not relevant. A right unexercised is a right lost. Free men understand this.

Live Free or Die,
Thundar

Btw, if the exercise of a fundamental right such as open carry is a provocation, then I guess all open carriers are provocateurs!

Bttw, the link provided earlier in the thread indicates that all (not only rifle) open carriers would be arrested. This renders one of your two "rule violation yellow flags" as moot as there is a direct relationship to the open carry of handguns in a holster.

 

[bbMurphy]

History good guys

... Why is it the "winners" are always the good guys in history?

Because it's the "winners" that write the history books.

 

[Tucker6900]

Ahhh, but that is your unsubstantiated opinion. What we have here is a way to verify your assertion.

March through Washington, DC visibly armed and measure the response by the Federal Government. If the response is to respect the right of the people to 1) peaceably assemble, and 2) Bear Arms - then your assumption is correct. If on the other hand the Feds react violently or threaten violence to the exercise of fundamental rights, then you are obviously wrong.

This is the point of the march. Not to threaten the Feds, but to exercise their God given right. This practice of non-violent protest is commendable and exactly on point.

You see, the important part about fundamental rights is that their existence is all the reason one needs to exercise them.

Hyperbole and hypothetical down sides are simply not relevant. A right unexercised is a right lost. Free men understand this.

Live Free or Die,
Thundar

Btw, if the exercise of a fundamental right such as open carry is a provocation, then I guess all open carriers are provocateurs!

Bttw, the link provided earlier in the thread indicates that all (not only rifle) open carriers would be arrested. This renders one of your two "rule violation yellow flags" as moot as there is a direct relationship to the open carry of handguns in a holster.

+1000

And exercising our rights is something that there has not been enough of in the last 20 years.

 

[Grapeshot]

Because it's the "winners" that write the history books.

Or burn them......

 

[GhostOfJefferson]

From the entirety of your post, you obviously still believe this is about gun rights alone. We have been making steps in the right direction, but most states still require permission to exercise our 2nd Amendment rights.

I feel like I have said it one hundred times, this is about more than just RKBA.

I fully support this CONSTITUTIONAL EXERCISE!

Fair point.

Then what will the march be about? End Tyranny Now! (tm) ? What specific message is being communicated, and what expected positive result is the hoped for outcome? Surely this has to have some purpose other than "Hey, look, we don't like you!", right? What precise results would you be demanding, that justifies the very high chance of showing up, being arrested, and losing our RKBA for the rest of our lives, assuming I mean that we're not just shot dead? Provoking a tyrant is fine, as far as it goes, but you have to have a specific set of grievances you want addressed, further you should probably have the tyrant in town when you do it, which I assure you he/they won't be (it's July 4th weekend). Nobody shows up with pitchforks and torches demanding "Burn something that may or may not be supernatural in nature we're not sure because we really don't know why precisely we're here!".

And, as somebody else pointed out, the power brokers simply will not listen and do not care. If I were to ever join in for a march on D.C., it would be not only with my gun on but also with ropes in my hands and some wood and nails to build the gallows. Showing up for the express purpose of either surrendering and losing your RKBA rights forever, or being shot, for no specific goal just doesn't seem to be a good strategic or tactical move. I guarantee you that, lacking a million person turnout, that they will not hesitate to deal with you fast, harsh and with extreme brutality. They are not going to let you just march in and mill around. You do know that right?

So ok, you go, you lose your RKBA for the rest of your life, or you get be shipped back home in a body bag. And the exact goal you were sacrificing everything for would be.....what again? Vague chanting and flying a few Gadsden flags? Really?

This is grandstanding and this guy wants to bring you along to satisfy his own special view of himself.

Want me to join (hypothetically)? Give me command of a few fire squads, provide tactical plans, electronics and logistics support, lay out and secure supply lines and get others out to disable electric grids before you do it, and be sure to bring the rope (I'm not advocating doing this, I'm saying it's the only actual thing that would make a difference at this point). Anything else is, well, futile. Nothing to gain (since, again, there are no specific grievances to be demanded an end to), everything to lose, and y'all get to basically drag fellow firearms owners down with you philosophically. It just doesn't compute.

At the state level I've seen my state go from rather gun unfriendly to being just shy of approaching New Hampshire and Wyoming for gun friendliness. Local action does work. When we marched, armed in a very locked and loaded fashion, in Columbus two times this last winter, we had the SUPPORT of the cops, and most of the folks in the Statehouse.

Guess I'm saying do it right, or don't do it at all. Pussyfooting along some kind of middle of the road fantasy where it's just assumed everything will go peachy, a real picnic on the mall with flowers and birds, serves no purpose and those who participate will receive very little sympathy even from staunch liberty advocates. He even states that this will be civil disobedience and that arrests will be made. Keep in mind that it would be well within the power of POTUS to declare this an act of treason. All for nothing, no defined goals, no real plan.

I'll show up armed, trained and ready to fight when the adults decide to act. Dying or losing my rights for nothing but symbolism, with nothing changing in the world as an outcome, is illogical.

If you can show me something tangible to gain, I'm willing to listen.

 

[GhostOfJefferson]

Ahhh, but that is your unsubstantiated opinion. What we have here is a way to verify your assertion.

March through Washington, DC visibly armed and measure the response by the Federal Government. If the response is to respect the right of the people to 1) peaceably assemble, and 2) Bear Arms - then your assumption is correct. If on the other hand the Feds react violently or threaten violence to the exercise of fundamental rights, then you are obviously wrong.

This is the point of the march. Not to threaten the Feds, but to exercise their God given right. This practice of non-violent protest is commendable and exactly on point.

You see, the important part about fundamental rights is that their existence is all the reason one needs to exercise them.

Hyperbole and hypothetical down sides are simply not relevant. A right unexercised is a right lost. Free men understand this.

Live Free or Die,
Thundar

Btw, if the exercise of a fundamental right such as open carry is a provocation, then I guess all open carriers are provocateurs!

Bttw, the link provided earlier in the thread indicates that all (not only rifle) open carriers would be arrested. This renders one of your two "rule violation yellow flags" as moot as there is a direct relationship to the open carry of handguns in a holster.

While quite true that we should be able to exercise our rights fully in D.C. or any other hellhole that bans guns, we cannot. These are not your local home town sheriffs in D.C. It's DHS there, along with a lot of FBI. You will be dealt with, unless you show up with 500,000+ people. The Administration WILL see this as a dire threat, guaranteed. This is not fantasy land, these are not nice people who will say "Gosh, they're just exercising their rights, and by gosh, I'll leave them alone because this is apple pie Americanism!". If you cannot demonstrate overwhelming firepower from the start, you will be taken down. As it stands right now, there are a couple of thousand "confirmed", which means in real life a couple of hundred will actually do it. They will be arrested at the bridge as they come across and that will be all that happens. The media will gleefully run with the video of you being hogtied and or shot. It's just that straight forward.

If you're not going there in huge numbers and with rope, then you're doing nothing but engaging in a fool's errand.

Please understand, that I get civil disobedience, I'm a libertarian (even a big "L" type). I open carry with pride, in front of "authority" and without fear. I know the impulse that you are working with, the desire to assert your natural rights against a tyrannical government. The time for that happening peacefully, however, passed well over 100 years ago.

 

[eye95]

...Eye, you say this is not the time. When, in your opinion, is the time for this? What else has to happen to the American people? Do we wait for them to come knocking for our guns? Do we wait for them to shut down forums likes this one for talking about this? Do we wait for the dollar to actually get to zero?...

Now is not the time for armed revolution. When will it be? I don't know. But my post pointed to a definite trigger. The shot heard 'round the world was let fly when armed troops moved on the People to take their arms away.

On this bridge, the exact opposite will happen. Some people (little "p") will be armed and advancing on the Capitol (and surely some armed police and/or troops) making those people (little "p") the provocateurs.

I don't know when (or if) the time will come, but we ain't there yet, and we won't be there yet when those idiots take to that bridge. The crap storm that the bridge incident will bring about may well force us into a when-in-the-course-of-human-events moment when one may never have been forthcoming. Personally, if forced to take sides on that day, I would defend the Capitol from any of the nuts on the bridge who decide to start the shooting.

 

[joanie]

Well Adam himself said that this activity "is ilegal", but he goes on to say "it's not unlawfull" Some can and will make the argument that we should work to change unjust laws from within, but many times that proves to be inefective. It really falls within a person's prefrence and skills. It's my guess that nothing drastic will come of this event. They will eather proceed on the march, or be turned back by police, military, or similar. I see charges being brought up against Adam, and maybe some others, but that will likely be ongoing in court. Short term, there might be some bad publicity directed tward the open carry community. Alot of slander and false accusations in an effort to undermind personal freedom, our rights, ect.. Long term though, the truth has a way of coming out, facts and truth will endure while the lies are disproven.

I will say that I don't fully understand the reasoning of this site's rules against long gun discussion. If I did understand, and agreed with the logic behind it, I might ban the same discussion on OhioOpenCarry. There was a member on AmericaChat who posted pictures of what might be called assualt rifles, and shotguns. Some complained to me about them, I said as long as the pictures of those firearms were not pointed at the one looking at their monitor, as to be construed as a threat, that I would allow them. Otherwise it would be no diffrent than showing a picture of a car. Brings up the question of a picture of the front of a moving car. As if it's going to run you over through the monitor screen.

Is Adam's event scary?, yes, are there risks? yes.,.. Do I wish I was there, yes, would I stand with him and do this myself? probibly yes. If history is any judge.

When I first started driving at 16 years old, there was no seatbelt law. They passed it about a year later. I always wore my seatbelt, I swore by it, until they passed that law that said I had to. I went years believeing that seat belts save lives, wanting to wear mine, but never did. I even cut the belts out of some of the cars I owned. This was up until just a couple years ago. I also don't drink, never have, but I found a empty beer can, and hung it from my rear view mirror. Maybe a time or two.

 

[Silvertongue]

Ya know, I'd consider getting behind this if the rifles all had their magazines removed, actions locked back, and trigger locks on. The way it sounds now, it's much too easy for a plant to just reach forward, charge a round on someone else's rifle, and pull the trigger. Instant massacre and P.R. nightmare.

Though, I'm sure if some simpleton in Tennessee has thought of this, so has Adam.

 

[BB62]

...I will say that I don't fully understand the reasoning of this site's rules against long gun discussion. If I did understand, and agreed with the logic behind it, I might ban the same discussion on OhioOpenCarry...

A certain former, obnoxious member, while in a park dressed in camo, carrying an orange-tipped rifle that I believe was an inch or so longer than an SBR, actively sought out police contact, and posted about his exploits here on OCDO and elsewhere. IMHO, in his twisted way of thinking he could not understand why "we" wouldn't get on board with his approach to exercising his rights.

After his detainment, he filed a Federal court case that did neither "us" nor him any favors, and got nowhere.

IMHO, rather than being an ambassador for open carry, he damaged, in word and deed, the public image and public enlightenment which the owners of this site value.

He was banished, and the rules were changed.

 

[Thundar]

Benedict Arnold in a monkey suit

Now is not the time for armed revolution. When will it be? I don't know. But my post pointed to a definite trigger. The shot heard 'round the world was let fly when armed troops moved on the People to take their arms away.

On this bridge, the exact opposite will happen. Some people (little "p") will be armed and advancing on the Capitol (and surely some armed police and/or troops) making those people (little "p") the provocateurs.

I don't know when (or if) the time will come, but we ain't there yet, and we won't be there yet when those idiots take to that bridge. The crap storm that the bridge incident will bring about may well force us into a when-in-the-course-of-human-events moment when one may never have been forthcoming. Personally, if forced to take sides on that day, I would defend the Capitol from any of the nuts on the bridge who decide to start the shooting.

The point is that those on the bridge are acting peacefully, exercising their constitutional rights. But you go right ahead and help those that would try to deny free men their rights.

Samuel Adams had the best response:

"Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."

Live Free or Die,
Thundar

 

[Thundar]

A certain former, obnoxious member, while in a park dressed in camo, carrying an orange-tipped rifle that I believe was an inch or so longer than an SBR, actively sought out police contact, and posted about his exploits here on OCDO and elsewhere. IMHO, in his twisted way of thinking he could not understand why "we" wouldn't get on board with his approach to exercising his rights.

After his detainment, he filed a Federal court case that did neither "us" nor him any favors, and got nowhere.

IMHO, rather than being an ambassador for open carry, he damaged, in word and deed, the public image and public enlightenment which the owners of this site value.

He was banished, and the rules were changed.

The long gun rule was well before Kwikrnu.

 

[Grapeshot]

A certain former, obnoxious member, while in a park dressed in camo, carrying an orange-tipped rifle that I believe was an inch or so longer than an SBR, actively sought out police contact, and posted about his exploits here on OCDO and elsewhere. IMHO, in his twisted way of thinking he could not understand why "we" wouldn't get on board with his approach to exercising his rights.

After his detainment, he filed a Federal court case that did neither "us" nor him any favors, and got nowhere.

IMHO, rather than being an ambassador for open carry, he damaged, in word and deed, the public image and public enlightenment which the owners of this site value.

He was banished, and the rules were changed.

Actually he carried an AK pistol sometimes painted orange or a BP pistol.

For those that know how to find it - he is an FFL now

 

[Thundar]

...and what I expect, you can use your powers to silence me. That I expect. But, again, your right. ...

Not moving on.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

I sure hope they don't silence you eye95. This forum used to be alot of fun. Back then LEO 229 and Hank would drive us all crazy with their different way of thinking. After they left it became very boring here with alot of common viewpoints. Now you are here with your often pejorative comments and silly gorilla avatar to keep us entertained.

Live Free or Die,
Thundar

 

[BB62]

The long gun rule was well before Kwikrnu.

That's not so, according to my recollection.