Incident yesterday at Ben's Loan in Renton

[Ruby]

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Aryk45XD wrote:

Sorry about the wait. I use fragmentation rounds (SD). With urban environments and children around me, I like the idea of not going though walls just in case.

I have heard of fragmentation ammo but I don't have any experience with it. I have also heard, and not just here, that it's effectiveness is questionable. This is one of the things that I really like about this forum is the fact that lots of views are expressed and I can learn from many different people. Personally, not having experience with frags, with a BG 10 feet or so from me, I'm going to trust my life to JHP; that close, I may only get one shot and I want it to work. I trust my gun with my life, I have to be able to trust my ammo as well. Thanks for answering my question; I welcome you viewpoint. I understand the concern about other people around, especially children. And I know that HP can overpenetrate, though I don't know how often that has been the case. We all have to decide the risks we are willing to take.

 

[BigDave]

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Aryk45XD wrote:

Sorry about the wait. I use fragmentation rounds (SD). With urban environments and children around me, I like the idea of not going though walls just in case.

If you have not heard of the website "The Box of Truth" as it test different ammo and reports back on the results be it good bad or average.

The test are not scientific but common sense materials that we are around everyday and likely to be a factor.
The water jugs in the testing is an approximation of ballistic gelatin with a conversion factor.

The Box of Truth http://www.theboxotruth.com

Lessons learned: The Extreme Shock ammo makes a couple of claims and we will look at the results. Please allow me to "paraphrase" some claims.

1. Claim: Their rounds are supposed to penetrate walls less than standard ammo. Findings:
The Fang Face penetrated 11 drywall boards, or over 5 interior walls without expanding or fragmenting.
The Air Freedom round penetrated 4 boards, or 2 walls. Less than a standard JHP round which penetrated all 12 boards, but still some penetration.

2. Claim: They are supposed to be able to penetrate a bad guy enough to be effective Stoppers. Findings: Both the Fang Face and Air Freedom rounds only fully penetrated 1 jug and slightly entered the second jug. This is equivalent of 3 or 4 inches of penetration in ballistic gelatin. Some experts have doubts that this is enough penetration to reach the vital organs of a bad guy.

3. Claim: They are advertised as worth their cost. Finding: The cost for this ammo averaged about $1.85 per round, delivered. I see this as a big problem with "Specialty" ammo. We all know that it is very important to function test any carry ammo through your firearm. Who will or can afford to run 50 or 100 rounds of this stuff through a firearm to be sure it functions without a hitch? Even if someone buys enough ammo to fill their magazine, it is unlikely that they will thoroughly test the functionality of the ammo. I'm sure this ammo costs a lot to manufacture. Is it worth the cost? You be the judge.

Full Article http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23_4.htm

You decide if this type of ammo is worth it, my opinion it is not. I want something that will reliable work when in that moment in time my life depends upon it.
There is no magic bullet, no fancy trick or hocos poccos that will make us or those around us safer, it will lay directly upon our actions.

 

[gogodawgs]

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I would only carry fragmentable ammo if I was required to do so on an airplane.

 

[Aryk45XD]

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Thanks for the info Dave.
I've tested a few of the rounds (can't remember the name) and they seem to work. The tip seems to be black ABS material that has been cut into genade-like fragments. They seem to penetrate more than they claim, but when they do hit, things get real messy.
At least if something does happen, I can show that I made an effort to be safe in my decicion to carry this type of round.

 

[BigDave]

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Aryk45XD wrote:

Thanks for the info Dave.
I've tested a few of the rounds (can't remember the name) and they seem to work. The tip seems to be black ABS material that has been cut into genade-like fragments. They seem to penetrate more than they claim, but when they do hit, things get real messy.
At least if something does happen, I can show that I made an effort to be safe in my decicion to carry this type of round.

There is so many things that will come up in court I would not want to add another piece to the puzzle and an avenue the jury would have to travel that would lead to a misconception.

This is what concerns me, "Some experts have doubts that this is enough penetration to reach the vital organs of a bad guy."

If we must shoot someone do we not want the fastest conclusion to come from it?

 

[Ruby]

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Aryk45XD wrote:

Thanks for the info Dave.
I've tested a few of the rounds (can't remember the name) and they seem to work. The tip seems to be black ABS material that has been cut into genade-like fragments. They seem to penetrate more than they claim, but when they do hit, things get real messy.
At least if something does happen, I can show that I made an effort to be safe in my decicion to carry this type of round.

Just because they work on the range doesn't mean they will work on a human being. Yes, you can show that you made an effort to be safe, if you survive the encounter. Your choice of course, I"m with BigDave on this one.

 

[OlGutshotWilly]

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Big Dave

I call it being Hippocrates and Bull Sh!t, find a range that respects your rights, they are out there.

Hippocrates was the father of medicine and I had to take the Hippocratic oath when I got my medical license LOL!

Being a Hypocrite is what you are after!

Now that I'm done poking you with a stick in good humor I want to thank you for posting the "Wall of Truth". Great site. I carry Expanding Full Metal Jacket rounds for SD, but can't find anything on the site about them. If you see anything could you send it my way?

I used to carry Hydroshocks, but read good things about the EFMJ ammo, and it closely matches my practice homeloads of 200gr truncated cone bullets over Bullseye or VitaVouri, so I can practice with a nearly exact load recoil wise and bullet shape.

I find most of the current HP loads uncomfortably hot for my smaller .45's. ( Kimber/Paraordnance)

Cheers

 

[Ruby]

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n15wb wrote:

Big Dave

I call it being Hippocrates and Bull Sh!t, find a range that respects your rights, they are out there.

Hippocrates was the father of medicine and I had to take the Hippocratic oath when I got my medical license LOL!

Being a Hypocrite is what you are after!

Now that I'm done poking you with a stick in good humor I want to thank you for posting the "Wall of Truth". Great site. I carry Expanding Full Metal Jacket rounds for SD, but can't find anything on the site about them. If you see anything could you send it my way?

I used to carry Hydroshocks, but read good things about the EFMJ ammo, and it closely matches my practice homeloads of 200gr truncated cone bullets over Bullseye or VitaVouri, so I can practice with a nearly exact load recoil wise and bullet shape.

I find most of the current HP loads uncomfortably hot for my smaller .45's. ( Kimber/Paraordnance)

Cheers

I'm rather new to guns and ammo and to the forum. What is the difference between JHP and EFMJ, or is there a difference? I have not heard of EFMJ before. I know they both expand. Just trying to learn something here. Thanks!

 

[amzbrady]

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Ruby wrote:

n15wb wrote:

Big Dave

I call it being Hippocrates and Bull Sh!t, find a range that respects your rights, they are out there.

Hippocrates was the father of medicine and I had to take the Hippocratic oath when I got my medical license LOL!

Being a Hypocrite is what you are after!

Now that I'm done poking you with a stick in good humor I want to thank you for posting the "Wall of Truth". Great site. I carry Expanding Full Metal Jacket rounds for SD, but can't find anything on the site about them. If you see anything could you send it my way?

I used to carry Hydroshocks, but read good things about the EFMJ ammo, and it closely matches my practice homeloads of 200gr truncated cone bullets over Bullseye or VitaVouri, so I can practice with a nearly exact load recoil wise and bullet shape.

I find most of the current HP loads uncomfortably hot for my smaller .45's. ( Kimber/Paraordnance)

Cheers

I'm rather new to guns and ammo and to the forum. What is the difference between JHP and EFMJ, or is there a difference? I have not heard of EFMJ before. I know they both expand. Just trying to learn something here. Thanks!

While we're on the subject of ammo. Is there any ammo sold in stores that is illegal to carry? I've heard of teflon coated cop killers that are supposed to be able to easily penetrate a vest. I dont understand that though, cause what I've heard is the standard High cap round and most rifle rounds will penetrate the every day wear vest the officers use. Just wondering.

On the subject of ranges, I also carry holstered and loaded into the range at marksman, Only thing I carry in hand is ammo and targets. I pay the range fee, borrow glasses and ear muffs, go in and unload my JHP's, shoot my crap FMJ Green box average 1 misfire per box ammo. When I'm done, I reload my JHP's, reholster, return goggles and muffs, then leave. Never had a problem as far as that goes. I just try not to communicate with them cause they are usually rude, and arrogant.

 

[BigDave]

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Ruby wrote:

I'm rather new to guns and ammo and to the forum. What is the difference between JHP and EFMJ, or is there a difference? I have not heard of EFMJ before. I know they both expand. Just trying to learn something here. Thanks!

Here is a couple of videos of a EFMJ Expanding Full Metal Jacket http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhc7FyKa6So

JHP Jacketed Hollow Point http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF7U9mBQQWk

I carry the Speer Gold Dot 165 Gr JHP

 

[BigDave]

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amzbrady wrote:

While we're on the subject of ammo. Is there any ammo sold in stores that is illegal to carry? I've heard of teflon coated cop killers that are supposed to be able to easily penetrate a vest. I dont understand that though, cause what I've heard is the standard High cap round and most rifle rounds will penetrate the every day wear vest the officers use. Just wondering.

The teflon round I think you are referring to is the Black Talon and was labeled by the antis as a cop killer and wanted it banned, but did not get it done.

If you can legally buy it you can legally own it, use it or even carry it.

If ones was to end up in a court case and wanting the jury to see you in a good light I would not want to be using those Cop Killer Bullets as with I avoid carrying guns with names as Colt Python or the Gun Dirty Harry Carried as it instant puts you in a negative light even though there is nothing wrong with either.

 

[Ruby]

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BigDave wrote:

Ruby wrote:

I'm rather new to guns and ammo and to the forum. What is the difference between JHP and EFMJ, or is there a difference? I have not heard of EFMJ before. I know they both expand. Just trying to learn something here. Thanks!

Here is a couple of videos of a EFMJ Expanding Full Metal Jacket http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhc7FyKa6So

JHP Jacketed Hollow Point http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF7U9mBQQWk

I carry the Speer Gold Dot 165 Gr JHP

Wow! That is the first time I have seen videos like that for penetration. Gives you a pretty good idea of what it would do to a human being. I can see why there is a legitimate concern about over penetration. Thanks BigDave!

 

[Ruby]

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amzbrady wrote:

Ruby wrote:

n15wb wrote:

Big Dave

I call it being Hippocrates and Bull Sh!t, find a range that respects your rights, they are out there.

Hippocrates was the father of medicine and I had to take the Hippocratic oath when I got my medical license LOL!

Being a Hypocrite is what you are after!

Now that I'm done poking you with a stick in good humor I want to thank you for posting the "Wall of Truth". Great site. I carry Expanding Full Metal Jacket rounds for SD, but can't find anything on the site about them. If you see anything could you send it my way?

I used to carry Hydroshocks, but read good things about the EFMJ ammo, and it closely matches my practice homeloads of 200gr truncated cone bullets over Bullseye or VitaVouri, so I can practice with a nearly exact load recoil wise and bullet shape.

I find most of the current HP loads uncomfortably hot for my smaller .45's. ( Kimber/Paraordnance)

Cheers

I'm rather new to guns and ammo and to the forum. What is the difference between JHP and EFMJ, or is there a difference? I have not heard of EFMJ before. I know they both expand. Just trying to learn something here. Thanks!

While we're on the subject of ammo. Is there any ammo sold in stores that is illegal to carry? I've heard of teflon coated cop killers that are supposed to be able to easily penetrate a vest. I dont understand that though, cause what I've heard is the standard High cap round and most rifle rounds will penetrate the every day wear vest the officers use. Just wondering.

On the subject of ranges, I also carry holstered and loaded into the range at marksman, Only thing I carry in hand is ammo and targets. I pay the range fee, borrow glasses and ear muffs, go in and unload my JHP's, shoot my crap FMJ Green box average 1 misfire per box ammo. When I'm done, I reload my JHP's, reholster, return goggles and muffs, then leave. Never had a problem as far as that goes. I just try not to communicate with them cause they are usually rude, and arrogant.

I've been to the Marksman once and didn't have a problem with any of the staff, but this was sometime last year, so personnel may have changed. What I did have a problem with, and why I've never been back is the fact that the divider walls between the lanes are so low that the brass from the shooter to your left is always flying over the wall and hitting you, as well as your brass hitting the person to your right. Doesn't hurt but it sure is distracting!

 

[BigDave]

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Ruby wrote:

Wow! That is the first time I have seen videos like that for penetration. Gives you a pretty good idea of what it would do to a human being. I can see why there is a legitimate concern about over penetration. Thanks BigDave!

Ruby be cognizant of there is a difference in the density of water jugs versus ballistic gel and the human torso.

4 water jugs is about equivalent of 18 inches in ballistic gel which represents enough penetration to hit vital organs in the human body with skin, muscle and bone to contend with.

Pictures are worth a thousand words they say, so not let get a mental image of stopping a threat.

The effectiveness of stopping a perp with a contact weapon, it would be better to shoot them in the groin !

Why should you asked ? the reason being is that there are many many nerves and blood vessels with a whole lot of liquid in this area causing instant disruption in their ability to advance as you will take out their ability to advance.

There are major arteries as well in the groin area and can cause death as well.
Some may argue the issue of center of mass but note the groin area is about the same area just lower and will stop anyone from advancing.

 

[Ruby]

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TBigDave wrote:

Ruby wrote:

Wow! That is the first time I have seen videos like that for penetration. Gives you a pretty good idea of what it would do to a human being. I can see why there is a legitimate concern about over penetration. Thanks BigDave!

Ruby be cognizant of there is a difference in the density of water jugs versus ballistic gel and the human torso.

4 water jugs is about equivalent of 18 inches in ballistic gel which represents enough penetration to hit vital organs in the human body with skin, muscle and bone to contend with.

Pictures are worth a thousand words they say, so not let get a mental image of stopping a threat.

The effectiveness of stopping a perp with a contact weapon, it would be better to shoot them in the groin !

Why should you asked ? the reason being is that there are many many nerves and blood vessels with a whole lot of liquid in this area causing instant disruption in their ability to advance as you will take out their ability to advance.

There are major arteries as well in the groin area and can cause death as well.
Some may argue the issue of center of mass but note the groin area is about the same area just lower and will stop anyone from advancing.

Thanks for the perspective on water jugs versus the human body. I knew it wouldn't be the same because the human body is much denser than a jug of water. Still would cause major problems for the attacker, which is the whole idea. I never thought about a hit in the groin area, but I think you have a very good point. I have also been told to hit the center of what is visible. The person shooting at you may not have their body in full view. I surely won't have my whole body in view if possible, I'll be finding some cover!

 

[SpyderTattoo]

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I believe the correct term is frangible ammunition.

 

[Aryk45XD]

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Everything I said before works for me. I have been shooting and practicing defense before I can remember. I also don't shoot much at the range anymore. Everybody has to figure out what works for them. My father for instance is perfectly comfortable with a .22.

 

[Ruby]

bump

 

[Ruby]

Gang member carries loaded gun near Renton High School

Some of you may remember from last month when I started this thread about the incident in Ben's Loan. I picked up a copy of The Renton Reporter and found an article on it. I have tried to find the link on the Reporter's website, to no avail. So I will type the article here.

A Blood's gang member was arrested just outside Renton High School after police heard reports of the 21-year-old openly loading and carrying a gun in downtown Renton.
The evidence log shows a total of four weapons were confiscated along with several magazines of ammo.
His friend, with whom he was walking, was not arrested.
At the time of the arrest, the school had just been let out and about 40 students were outside the high school. The gang member was across South Second Street near Morris Avenue South June 4th.
The youth did not walk on school property.
He said he had the weapons for protection.
The officer arrested the boy for unlawful display of a firearm. He noticed the boy excessively fidgeting in the patrol vehicle, when he quickly rushed him into the jail.
Breaking into a nervous sweat, the boy eventually admitted to having another gun under his pants. He had managed to **** the weapon in the patrol vehicle.
The officer immediately pushed him up against the wall and patted him down. He couldn't find the weapon, so he pulled down the gang member's pants down to find a revolver hidden in his shorts pocket.
The officer noticed tatoos from the Blood gang, Elm Street and Money Over Bitches.
Before the youths walked in front of the high school, HE STOPPED BY BEN'S LOAN, 1005 S. Second St., WHERE HE PURCHASED AMMO. HE WAS KICKED OUT OF THE STORE WHEN HE STARTED LOADING HIS GUN.

I just wanted to follow up on this and let everyone know what the outcome was. My only comment is I wonder why the police officer didn't pat him down BEFORE putting him in the patrol car. The officers were lucky, could have been a very differnt outcome had this young man decided to use that cocked revolver!

 

[OrangeIsTrouble]

welcome to renton.