HB 139 sure looks like Constiutional Carry to me

[TFred]

The importance of the "secured container" clause

For those just joining, or who need reminding...

The secured container clause is special because of where it was placed in the CHP law.

It is item #10 in a list of situations that the basic ban on carrying a concealed weapon "shall not apply to".

Among the others in that list are things like "a person in his own place of business", "any law-enforcement officer, ...", and the oft-discussed Commonwealth's Attorney exemption.

The important part of this exemption is that 18.2-308.1, which covers firearms on school property has this nifty little clause:

"The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section."

That means that the "secured container" that exempts you from the CHP also exempts you from the general prohibition on school carry. Was this an accident? Nobody will say. But it has been very useful to hundreds of folks who pick up their children from school every day, and as we are prone to say... after all this time, there has been no "blood in the streets" because of it. It needs to stay.

Even though that exemption may not be needed for the CHP, it is very much still needed for 18.2-308.1.

TFred

 

[2a4all]

As this bill deletes the basic requirement to have a valid CHP to carry concealed, it allows those under 21 to do so.

Some of these individuals would still be in high school.

If the "closed container" clause is reinstated, we could have situations where students were (inadvertandly?) legally carrying loaded handguns onto K-12 school property.

Isn't that the same situation as colleges though? Don't pretty much all public schools in the major localities (ie non-rural) prohibit guns on their property for their students? I have seen quite a few news articles about kids getting in trouble for having their hunting rifles in their vehicles. That's legal if done properly, but they get suspended or expelled anyway for violating school policy.

Firearms on K-12 school property are prohibited by state law, not localities, with the exceptions laid out in the CHP statutes.

 

[2a4all]

Reciprocity?

There remains in this bill the option for the VSP to establish reciprocity for CHP holders with other states.

However, by default, Virginia will (under this bill) honor all other states' CHPs (or whatever they're called), as no permit will be required to carry concealed here.

Now, for states that say "We honor permits from any state that honors ours.", will that automatically expand the list of states that recognize our CHP? (Probably depends on the state, but Georgia is on my mind.)

 

[vt357]

I don't see how, since public schools are administered by LOCAL governments and thereby obligated to honour preemption... they cannot institute "policies" which supersede state law. Period.

Please cite an instance where a student who has had a lawfully stowed LONG GUN was suspended or expelled in Virginia.

Now I'm not a lawyer so someone tell me if I'm interpreting this wrong but according to the code of Virginia in Section § 22.1-277.07 the school board shall expel a student for a year just for having a firearm on school property. Now the exemptions to this are the same as the exemptions to the concealed weapons law in § 18.2-308. This includes the secure container for a loaded handgun exemption .

Now here is where I need someone else to provide clarification. The exemption for unloaded in a closed container is in the section on carry on school property law which is § 18.2-308.1. Now is 308.1 a subsection of 308? Or is it just the next section - so the unloaded in a closed container exemption would not apply to 22.1-277.07 allowing the student to be expelled?

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+22.1-277.07

I can't recall any specific incidents in VA at the moment but I'll try and hunt some down to see if I was just misremembering and they actually happened in other states.

 

[vt357]

Hmm just found this... reading it now.

http://www.vcdl.org/letters/School_Opinion.pdf

ETA: Holy cow that is a mouthful. Basic jist that I took from that is that the law is really muddled and ultimately the school board will get away with anything they want. Sorry for the thread hijack. This is supposed to be about Constitutional Carry not whether a kid can be expelled for having an otherwise legal firearm in their trunk. Perhaps we should start a new thread if we want to continue.

 

[wylde007]

Now I'm not a lawyer so someone tell me if I'm interpreting this wrong but according to the code of Virginia in Section § 22.1-277.07 the school board shall expel a student for a year just for having a firearm on school property. Now the exemptions to this are the same as the exemptions to the concealed weapons law in § 18.2-308. This includes the secure container for a loaded handgun exemption.

Any student carrying a firearm onto school property in VIOLATION of 18.2-308.1(B).

Since exception is taken to 18.2-308 and in sub-paragraph (vi) to a "closed container" or "firearms rack" it would serve to reason that 22.1-277.07 still does not give the school board carte-blanche authority to completely prohibit otherwise permitted firearms.

The opinion you posted makes less sense than the law. A lot of words and not much said. Typical lawyering.

 

[ocholsteroc]

This is great, I am really hoping for is college carry.

 

[MSC 45ACP]

It seems as thought we've shot ourselves in the foot (AD?).

ND.

 

[MSC 45ACP]

I wonder how it works for my old HS in Fairfax? We practiced and had matches at Ft. Belvoir at night when I was there.
Would Constitutional Carry make GFSZ 'null & void'?

It would be nice to be able to go to school, then practice, then home without having to make side-trips.

http://www.robinsonrifle.org/

 

[Grapeshot]

I wonder how it works for my old HS in Fairfax? We practiced and had matches at Ft. Belvoir at night when I was there.
Would Constitutional Carry make GFSZ 'null & void'?

It would be nice to be able to go to school, then practice, then home without having to make side-trips.

http://www.robinsonrifle.org/

Constitutional Carry only negates the need for the government issued paper in most instances. Some of these could (should?) be specifically addressed i.e. GFSZ and GA building.

 

[gmuguy]

This looks amazing besides the few small things you guys already pointed out! I think I feel something wet and sticky in my pants. lol
Now to only get the dam liberals out of GMU!

 

[peter nap]

This looks amazing besides the few small things you guys already pointed out! I think I feel something wet and sticky in my pants. lol
Now to only get the dam liberals out of GMU!

Thank you for sharing that!

 

[paramedic70002]

I don't see how, since public schools are administered by LOCAL governments and thereby obligated to honour preemption... they cannot institute "policies" which supersede state law. Period.

Please cite an instance where a student who has had a lawfully stowed LONG GUN was suspended or expelled in Virginia.

I can't cite but there was a student in Norfolk, Lake Taylor I think, a couple of years ago, that got disciplinary action for having a long arm in his vehicle, but the criminal charges were dropped because he was in compliance with the law.

 

[paramedic70002]

I can't cite but there was a student in Norfolk, Lake Taylor I think, a couple of years ago, that got disciplinary action for having a long arm in his vehicle, but the criminal charges were dropped because he was in compliance with the law.

Wait, here is a the original story. I think there was a VCDL Update about it...

http://hamptonroads.com/node/96541

[h=1]Norfolk high school student arrested after rifle seized from his car[/h] [h=2][/h]
May 2, 2006

The Virginian-Pilot

NORFOLK - Police confiscated a gun from a Lake Taylor High School student Monday morning and criminally charged him. There are no indications anyone was in danger, police said.

The incident happened at about 8:30 a.m. in the school parking lot.

The student - 19-year-old Corey Benton - had caught the attention of school security when he left the parking lot and returned , said Officer Chris Amos, a police spokesman.
When security officers asked to search Benton's vehicle, he told them he had a rifle in the trunk.

Police were called and confiscated the rifle, which was unloaded and legally owned.

There was no indication Benton meant to harm anyone at the school, Amos said.
Benton, of the 6300 block of Tuttle Ave., was charged with felony possession of a firearm on school property.

He is being held at Norfolk City Jail.

 

[paramedic70002]

OK here's the followup, CHARGES DROPPED.

http://hamptonroads.com/node/98451

Norfolk student released from jail; gun charge withdrawn



By MATTHEW ROY
The Virginian-Pilot

--sip--
Benton appeared briefly in General District Court Friday morning, and the charge was withdrawn.
Benton still faces potential disciplinary action from the school division, which does not allow students to possess weapons.

Has the taint of double jeopardy to it.

 

[Marco]

Hb139

I sincerely hope everyone and their mother is writing, emailing and calling their Delegate/Senator and telling them to support HB139
Especailly those Sen/Del's that are patrons of special class citizen exemption bills ie... campus cops and correctional officers.

 

[Grapeshot]

No date for committee hearing yet - will be there.
http://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?121+sum+HB139

 

[ocholsteroc]

Does this apply to rifles/shotguns?

Carrying concealed handguns; penalties. Provides that any person who may lawfully possess a firearm in Virginia may carry it hidden from common observation.

What about the loaded rifle/shotgun in certain cities loaded in your vehicle?

 

[TFred]

I sincerely hope everyone and their mother is writing, emailing and calling their Delegate/Senator and telling them to support HB139
Especailly those Sen/Del's that are patrons of special class citizen exemption bills ie... campus cops and correctional officers.

I don't think it will do any good to write my Delegate on this one, he has already made up his mind... He's the author!

On a serious note, however... hopefully some of those with a bit more experience than I can join in here...

Is it beneficial for us to deluge the legislators at the wrong times? Specifically, this is a House bill. It may or may not reach the Senate. While I do certainly agree that it is good to express our concerns to all legislators on our general feelings about issues, I don't know if it's a good idea to pound a Senator to support a House bill that may or may not ever reach him/her for a vote.

The point is that we don't want to cross that line from lobbying and sharing our views to irritating them to a point where they dread hearing from us. You only get to make a certain amount of noise before they tune you out, so spend that noise wisely.

There may be some who disagree with that... I guess it falls under the category of "more flies with honey..."

TFred

 

[Grapeshot]

Does this apply to rifles/shotguns?

What about the loaded rifle/shotgun in certain cities loaded in your vehicle?

HB 139 is about carrying concealed handguns - long guns are not referenced.

Short answer - that would seem to be a separate issue in need of reform.