Carry Ammo?

[Citizen]

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Hawkflyer wrote:

Well... Lets see ... Got home after 8, 1 brandy per hour ... What time is it now?

Oh, dammit. Now I'm "thirsty."

 

[Pa. Patriot]

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Citizen wrote:

Several points.
snip

With all the premium defensive factory loads available, I recommendfinding and using one.

With all due respect, until an example is cited your recommendation isn't much concern to me, personally, as it is based only on speculation.

There HAVE been self defense shootings with handloads and there is no record that anyone can seem to find of the handloads being even mentioned in court, criminal or civil. Been hashed to death on many boards I've followed for the last 12 years or so and have yet to see anyone come up with one example.

A gun is a gun and ammo is ammo.

If you shoot in self defense with a 44 magum will you have the same problem since you could have bought a 22lr. Does the 44magnum prove you had some "deadly intent".

In the end it's all internet lore unless and until there is an example.




ETA that I completely agree with the logic behind your speculation. It just doesn't concern me enough to follow it.

 

[Hawkflyer]

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"Imagine you're a deer. You're prancing along. You get thirsty. You spot a little brook. You put your little deer lips down to the cool, clear water - BAM. A f___in' bullet rips off part of your head. Your brains are lying on the ground in little bloody pieces. Now I ask ya, would you give a f___ what kind of pants the son-of-a-bitch who shot you was wearing?" - Mona Lisa Vito: My Cousin Vinny"

 

[Citizen]

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Pa. Patriot wrote:

SNIP...There HAVE been self defense shootings with handloads and there is no record that anyone can seem to find of the handloads being even mentioned in court, criminal or civil. Been hashed to death on many boards I've followed for the last 12 years or so and have yet to see anyone come up with one example.

This is, for me, new and helpful info. It takes things out of the realm of pure theory and brings in facts.

If it is as infrequent a problem as one might conclude from your experience, then I'd have to say you can almost ignore it. Almost? I'd perk up my ears if new info came to light; but that is about all. One step short of forget all about it.

I don't have the equipment to reload.I use Corbon DPX. Based the decision on its performance in tests written up in a couple reviews. If I recall, two separate people/groups ran very similar tests and got very similar results---the hollow-point would still open upafter passing through four layers of denim.

 

[Pa. Patriot]

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Citizen wrote:

This is, for me, new and helpful info. It takes things out of the realm of pure theory and brings in facts.

If it is as infrequent a problem as one might conclude from your experience, then I'd have to say you can almost ignore it. Almost? I'd perk up my ears if new info came to light; but that is about all. One step short of forget all about it.

Yeah, I would not be surprised if it DID become an issue in court, just doesn't seem to have happened, yet.

BTW, I usually carry Fed Hydrashock ammo But I carry handloaded "Keith" loads in my 44mag when I'm doing something woodsy or on my way to or fro doing something woodsy... Openly carry that is of course

 

[Hawkflyer]

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Pa. Patriot wrote:

Citizen wrote:

This is, for me, new and helpful info.  It takes things out of the realm of pure theory and brings in facts. 

If it is as infrequent a problem as one might conclude from your experience, then I'd have to say you can almost ignore it.  Almost?  I'd perk up my ears if new info came to light; but that is about all.  One step short of forget all about it.

Yeah, I would not be surprised if it DID become an issue in court, just doesn't seem to have happened, yet.

BTW, I usually carry Fed Hydrashock ammo   But I carry handloaded "Keith" loads in my 44mag when I'm doing something woodsy or on my way to or fro doing something woodsy... Openly carry that is of course

I think it would be a non issue in any criminal prosecution, just as it has been up till now. If you get charged under a criminal statute for a shooting incident, the ammo is not going to be an issue, unless premeditation is involved. There is no criminal statute against using hand-loads for self defense.

The problem will be in a civil suit. Usually this would be wrongful death. In that case, the complainant will be trying to prove that you intended to inflict pain through the use of "special" ammo. In most cases these arguments would be easy to defend against. If you are using factory made bullets, and standard loads, there is not much room to make anything out of that. If on the other-hand you are using some fancy homemade bullet of your own design, then they could get some milage out of it.

But the short of the issue is just as I tried to point out above. The dead guy is not really going to care about the kind of bullet you used, unless it can be shown that he would be alive had you used a different kind of factory bullet, or loading. Only in the rarest of cases would the bullet make that much difference.

Regards

 

[Scheetz]

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No handloads here. But I do want to pick up reloading here soon.

I carry: Magtech 155gr. JHP 40 S&W

muzzle flash is huge on my USPc but it shoots great with easy to control recoil.

 

[para_org]

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Citizen wrote:

Hawkflyer wrote:

I am not aware of any factory handgun where the factory states that you can use +P. the only exceptions are magnums, such as .375, .44 etc, where the use of "Special" +P would be acceptable because the pressures are well below the design limits of the weapon.

I know for sure that some Kahr and some Taurus do. I've seen it on their websites.

Uh yep... when I first got one of my two model 85s in titanium I looked this up. Sure enough the factory said the marked .38 specials were fine in +P.

They are also ported, so it isn't so bad a recoil either.

Oh yeah, they are seriously lightweight and corrosion resistant. And also surprisingly accurate for a short barreled revolver too.

 

[nickerj1]

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I carry a P229 chambered in .40. I use both Speer Gold Dot 165 grain JHP and standard Winchester FMJ. Whatever the white winchester box is, 165 grain, I think.

Top three bullets in the magazine are the Gold Dolt JHP, next three are FMJ, next three JHP, last three FMJ.

I only started alternating like that after I read about the guy in Texas that was in a shootout and the lunatic was wearing body armor. The good guy shot the bad guy a total of 5 times or something, maybe even knocked him down, but he still got up and shot and killed the concealed carrier.

 

[Mjolnir]

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Double Tap makes some superb premium ammo, it's all I carry in my PDW's. http://www.doubletapammo.com

 

[larz]

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I need more magazines for my Sig P220R SAO but one has 165gr Speer Gold Dots and the other is 230gr Speer Gold Dots, i load the 165gr in the gun though, since it's faster!:celebrate

 

[Drewesque]

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[align=left]I carry 230 gr HSM hollowpoints in my XD45, though it looks as though I'm headed back to Federal hydrashoks. The HSM is fantastic and inexpensive, but no one carries it anymore. I tried the 165gr hydrashoks once (mistaken purchase), and my homegrown ballistics test was not promising. It shredded and didn't penetrate well. But it's made for short barrels, in which it is probably fantastic.
I carry 180 gr Winchester Ranger SXTs in my Steyr M40-A1. I also have some 155 gr Speer Gold Dots, which are nice, but I prefer the Rangers.

At some point, I'll get reloading equipment...but I'll probably still carry with factory rounds, if only because of civil litigation possibilities. I'm not overly worried about it, by why take chances?
[/align]

 

[Uzi4U]

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I carry 147 gr Remington Golden Sabers (9mm) myself.

 

[Uzi4U]

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Hawkflyer wrote:

I am not aware of any factory handgun where the factory states that you can use +P. the only exceptions are magnums, such as .375, .44 etc, where the use of "Special" +P would be acceptable because the pressures are well below the design limits of the weapon.

If you just have to have +P in something around 9mm, why not just get a .38 super, or move to .40 cal.

Regards

The Smith and Wesson 9mm I carry is approved for +P

 

[DrewGunner]

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Gold dot 200gr +P hollow points for my 45XD 5''.

 

[jeepinbanditrider]

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Hawkflyer wrote:

I think it would be a non issue in any criminal prosecution, just as it has been up till now. If you get charged under a criminal statute for a shooting incident, the ammo is not going to be an issue, unless premeditation is involved. There is no criminal statute against using hand-loads for self defense.

The problem will be in a civil suit. Usually this would be wrongful death. In that case, the complainant will be trying to prove that you intended to inflict pain through the use of "special" ammo. In most cases these arguments would be easy to defend against. If you are using factory made bullets, and standard loads, there is not much room to make anything out of that. If on the other-hand you are using some fancy homemade bullet of your own design, then they could get some milage out of it.

But the short of the issue is just as I tried to point out above. The dead guy is not really going to care about the kind of bullet you used, unless it can be shown that he would be alive had you used a different kind of factory bullet, or loading. Only in the rarest of cases would the bullet make that much difference.

Regards

The mauf. offer up recomended loadings for ammo and powder loadings for handloaders.

If you go to Hodgdon's website they give a gooduser friendly interface for finding loadings for powder/bullet/weight types.For example:

OAL starting load max load





115 GR. SPR GDHP
115
Titegroup
.355"
1.125"
4.5
1135
29,500 CUP
4.8
1158
30,500 CUP

How could it even remotely be considered a "special" loading if you are using the mauf. recommened powder charges and bullets?

(note: all prices are from Midway USA and are guesstimates on my part)

Not to mention how much cheaper it is. If you include everything BUT brass in reloading or hell even if youbought 100 pieces of nickel brass so you could get as close to spec as possible you would be looking at assuming using 115 grn Gold Dots as above with brand new nickel brass and titegroup powder:

14.49 for a box of 100 Gold Dots.........16.00 for a box of 100 pcs of nickel brass

After you throw in powder and 100 primers you're probabaly looking at a hair over 30 dollars. You can cut that down to less than 20 if you have brass already.

That's way better than 20 dollars for a box of 20. This will allow you to pratice with what you carry A LOT more. And if you go by that charts load ratings you aren't even in +p territory.



{back on topic}

I carry Speer Gold Dots in my XD-9. The Llama has Winchester "personal defense" ammo in it and the Government .380acp is packing Win. silvertips in it. In the near future all will be packing Gold Dots no exceptions.

 

[Marco]

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:what::lol:

 

[Marco]

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http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot38.htm

 

[unrequited]

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A GREAT repository if you haven't found it yet:
http://stevespages.com/page8f45acp.html (other calibers from the main page)