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Can a police officer disarm you just for OC

solus

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Aug 22, 2013
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pkbites...please go the the cite and please explain this DC officer's hold on a 32 yo woman where her feet are being held above the ground as the officer pins her against the vehicle.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/dc-police-officer-appears-hold-woman-off-ground/story?id=41422670

and guess what, nada, no, cite from the nice LE.

quote: Metropolitan Police Department (MPD) in Washington, D.C. said, "MPD has been made aware of this video and contacted their commanding officer. We'll investigate this matter." unquote

of course the nice LE involved will get a talking too...for being stupid enough to be video'd...

ipse
 

solus

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Why don't all of you become partners and start a law firm and help the chap out instead of blathering away. He was told to shut up and see a lawyer. Now the jury pool is tainted.
the OP, if you back up a few posts, has steadfastly stated, (paraphrasing) eh, i have a video, i don't care about it.

jury discharged...

ipse
 

Citizen

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Fairfax Co., VA
And the above is why soooo many people have lost respect for law enforcement, making excuses for them only makes matters worse. Make no bones about it the public is getting fed up. There are those that believe that LE have infinite authority to harass law abiding citizens, I call them statists.
<chuckle> +1

I have a co-worker. He is freedom-minded. Or, perhaps a more accurate statement is that he is responsible in a conservative way. Emphasis on responsible. He's a pretty responsible guy. And, yet, he holds there are only a very few bad cops. Now, let me be very precise. He doesn't seem to say that because he really believes it based on observation. He seems to say it based on his own decency--extended to others--and his own insistence on trying to make rational sense of the world around him (no fault there). So, he pretty much automatically rejects most any sweeping adverse conclusions about the policing industry.

Needless to say, he and I have had a number of fur-pulls over the police industry. Of course, the police industry is not important enough to him for him to make an in-depth study of the police industry. That is not an indictment by me. He's got a kid to raise, a job to do, a new wife. Can't really fault him much for not familiarizing himself with the subject in depth.

So, here is the interesting part. We were having a fur-pull one day (an argument, and not good natured--we were each angry with the other) about the police industry relevant to the Baltimore riots last year and the general upwelling of anger against police by minorities across the country. Now, here is the hard part. His argument was that minorities should be rational. Oh! My! God! was I unprepared--just barely--for that one. I pointed out to him: Hey, buddy. In case you haven't noticed, being rational, being nice toward the police industry hasn't worked with the police industry. Police have had almost fifty years since Terry v Ohio to stop harassing minorities. Almost fifty years to become hair-line professional about observing the finest minutiae of rights. And, yet the police industry didn't. Stunned silence.

And, only one week later, another conversation. Not so much an argument. Again, race vs the police industry. His position: both sides need to come to the table with rationality and solutions. By this point in time, I was little more saavy. I asked, "like what?" or some such. He mentioned at least three points the black race should bring to the table. All very rational, totally unassailable. But, I had my suspicion. So, after he seemed to wind down about what blacks should bring to the table, I asked, "Umm hmmmm. And, what about the police? What solutions should they bring to the table?" Pause. "Well, uhhh." No answer.

He'd thunk through a number of points that minorities should contribute to the solution of racial tensions with police. But, hadn't thought of even one single thing police could or should contribute to de-escalating racial tensions with themselves. Not one. This went on for several seconds as he tried to think of something. Nothing. He was totally unprepared for the question. He'd never thought about it. It was all on minorities to solve the problem.

After several seconds of him casting about for a reply, I let him off the hook (by impaling him): "Oh, that's all right. It was a rhetorical question. I figured you didn't really have an answer."

Silence.

So, I filled in for him. I prefaced it with, "This will never happen." Then I said, "This (riots, tension, anger), would all disappear by Thursday if police suddenly decided to be very professional and stop violating rights."

He had no reply. Which is to say, he got it. (I think.)
 

hammer6

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Florida
"This will never happen." Then I said, "This (riots, tension, anger), would all disappear by Thursday if ALL police suddenly decided to be very professional and stop violating rights."
I added something for you...because surely there are plenty of cops out there who don't violate rights and who act very professionally, yet because of all those who don't, they still get a bad name. it's gotta be all the cops acting within their requirements under color of the law. if they don't, they should be fired. cut and dry. no suspensions, etc. if you violate rights as a citizen, you face a penalty or jail time. why does a cop get to get off with just a paid suspension or something? he should be fired and tried the same as any normal citizen. because, that's all they are, when they act outside their legal authority.
 

OC for ME

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...I responded that I do not consent to any search or seizures and asked if I was being detained (which he said no I wasn't). ...
This is all a citizen need do to assert his rights. The cop had zero interest in respecting the rights of the OP.

Anyway...

Does a cop in WI have a legal obligation to inform the detained under what authority he acts?

Does a cop in WI have a legal obligation to inform the arrested under what authority he acts?

What redress is there if the cop does not state his legal justification? (rhetorical question)

Knowing that a cop can lie, or say nothing, does it matter at this point? (rhetorical question)

Citing WI's privilege statute indicates to me that the legality of the stop was of no consequence to that cop, or will be to any WI cop.

Relying on the benevolence of a WI cop to not violate your rights? It seems that the WI citizen must, given the laws of WI.
 

WalkingWolf

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Jul 31, 2011
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North Carolina
Yesterday, searching for more of the Training Guides, I came across the Milwaukee PD SOP's that are expected to comport with Wisc. Stats. requirements. I'll try to post their link URL, I found at the state law library ...

Here's the MPD SOP Index page

http://city.milwaukee.gov/Directory/police/About-MPD/Code-of-Conduct.htm

From SOP 085 CITIZEN CONTACTS, FIELD INTERVIEWS, SEARCH AND SEIZURE
That is almost word for word ILPA training, but then that has been over four decades ago. All this malarkey, and that is what it is, that police can treat citizens with disrespect is malarkey. ALL holds are compliance holds, and only used for safety(citizen, officer, or both) the escort hold was known as the chicken wing hold to us, done with or without a night stick. It was ONLY used during a Terry Stop, or arrest. Outside of having to take control of a subject, getting that close was taught that was putting the officer at risk.

Get close, get hurt, so the officer broke a safety rule by touching without cause. It was not only illegal, but extremely stupid. Officers have died from just getting too close. While today's trend is to cover for all SNAFU's, it was not like that decades back, other officers hated working with incompetent officers. Now they seem to be embraced, at least that is the public image.

There is a huge fiscal incentive to keep morons on the force, if they are not major morons. The training is extremely expensive, this is the reason other departments will hire a known moron because they need a body, and stay within the budget. Over the years, and change of climate in community relations more morons are impeded into the blue family. In fact those morons get promoted to get them off the streets, away from other officers. A state, or local official may need someone to babysit them, or their family. Who do they send, the department idiot. Then the idiot builds connections that vault them to the top, where they give more moron opportunity. Somewhere along the line responsibility, courtesy, professionalism went down the poop chute.

I am ashamed at what people think of my former profession, embarrassed. I was once very proud, now I watch officer, after officer do dumb stuff, criminal stuff, and there is always some statist cheering them on. One of the big problems is that "good" police officers know who these imbeciles are, and they too are embarrassed to go public, or fear losing their job.

Hopefully some light will come on, and the police realize that to get respect, and support, they have to respect, and support their community.
 
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OC for ME

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I like that...field interview same same as a terry stop.

E. PAT-DOWN SEARCH or FRISK
For a frisk to be warranted after a person has been stopped, the police member must reasonably suspect that he/she or another is in danger of physical injury from that person. ...
Hmm...a OCing WI citizens is a danger to a cop...all cops perhaps?

I. SEIZURE
Seizure of property is limited to contraband , instrumentalities of a crime, fruits of a crime or evidence of a crime. ...
So, in WI a OC'd handgun is evidence of a crime.

085.10 CONTACT PROTOCOL (WILEAG 6.2.3)
B. CLOSING A CONTACT
1. In an effort to prevent inaccurate perceptions of biased law enforcement, police members will make every attempt to provide a professional closing. This is an opportunity to ensure that the citizen leaves the contact with the best possible view of the police member, the department and the profession. ...
Ha!!!Too funny. Maybe "further training" is required.

085.20 FIELD INTERVIEWS (FI’s) (WILEAG 10.1.1)
C. REPORTING OF FIELD INTERVIEWS (FI’S)
1. If after conducting a field interview the police member has no basis for making an arrest or issuing a citation, the police member will record the facts of the field interview on the yellow FI card (form PF-4).
It appears that a record is generated...at a minimum a copy must be provided to the wronged citizen.
 

Franky

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And the ignorance and blind faith you are exhibiting is staggering. The OP has given few details and since bolted. There is no evidence that the officer used unreasonable force, was screaming/yelling, etc.. And neither you nor anyone else has cited a single case where an officer was charged with anything in Wisconsin for using an escort hold.

Meanwhile, Mr. Halford is laughing "dance puppets, dance!" If he's not going to do anything about it there's no reason not to give more details and post any recordings he has.

I'm on vacation for 2 weeks and will back on 8/26 at he earliest. I wish someone would step up and check that agencies public access computer before then so we could at least know what they're claiming happened.

I, BTW, don't know anyone who works there.
I look forward to any information you can obtain on Mr. Halford's alleged incident. Yah, the hoofers are performing on their own dime and I believe Mollie B wishes to end this polka party.
 
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countryclubjoe

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Mar 3, 2013
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nj
I am curious as to exactly what an "escort hold" looks like in the state of Wisconsin..

Regards

CCJ
 

countryclubjoe

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Mar 3, 2013
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nj
first i want to publiclly state i was not aware of how numerous escort services are in Wisconsin...

just say'g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZwhHlm_w28

ipse

LOL on your reply.

Regarding the informative video, if a regular citizen were to apply that escort hold on another regular citizen, there would surely be an issue and possibly an arrest.

Therefore if a LEO applied the same technique without RAS/or probable cause, on a LAC, LEO should be charged with assault.

My .02
Regards
CCJ
 

OC for ME

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False premise, supported by cops and the courts, that disarming a LAC is for the citizen's safety. False premise, supported by cops and the courts, restraining/using restraints is for the citizen's safety.

If a cop approaches you decline to be engaged, you did not give your consent to the encounter.

False premise, consensual encounter...torture of the King's English!
 

James StuuStu Halford

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Jul 19, 2016
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Location
Hales Corners, WI
Any chance of giving a few more details? Did the officer tell you why he was approaching you? Ask you any questions? Were there special circumstances, like were you in a school zone? How exactly did he grab your arm? The fact that you're not going to pursue this leads me to believe there is something missing in your OP. Please quash my doubts.
The officer said he received a call from a concerned resident about a "kid" carrying a gun. Although I'm 23, unfortunately I look a bit younger and for some reason can't grow a beard... I could see that I may appear "suspicious" because I wear tighter pants than a normal person (skinny jeans) and wear a flat brim hat occasionally backwards. That still does not give them any reasonable suspicion of me committing a crime, that would be considered profiling.

As I walked up he grabbed my left arm and told me to put my hands up as he started to disarm me of my firearm. At this time I notified the officer that I do not consent to any search and seizures and asked if I was being detained as he then stated that I wasn't.

What else would you like to know?
 

solus

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The officer said he received a call from a concerned resident about a "kid" carrying a gun. Although I'm 23, unfortunately I look a bit younger and for some reason can't grow a beard... I could see that I may appear "suspicious" because I wear tighter pants than a normal person (skinny jeans) and wear a flat brim hat occasionally backwards. That still does not give them any reasonable suspicion of me committing a crime, that would be considered profiling.

As I walked up he grabbed my left arm and told me to put my hands up as he started to disarm me of my firearm. At this time I notified the officer that I do not consent to any search and seizures and asked if I was being detained as he then stated that I wasn't.

What else would you like to know?
how does someone look or appear suspicious ~fat belly with crack of arse showing or ?

quit providing further justification for any illegal acts the nice LE perpetrated against you!!

the moment he grab'd you they were out of order.!

you have, in a timely fashion, failed to raised the situational issue to local IA, or asked, via FOIA, for documented information on the police report or the 911 transcript verifying the nice LE's commentary; therefore, for all intents and purposes the 'you said' issue is moot.

ipse
 

davidmcbeth

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The officer said he received a call from a concerned resident about a "kid" carrying a gun. Although I'm 23, unfortunately I look a bit younger and for some reason can't grow a beard... I could see that I may appear "suspicious" because I wear tighter pants than a normal person (skinny jeans) and wear a flat brim hat occasionally backwards. That still does not give them any reasonable suspicion of me committing a crime, that would be considered profiling.

As I walked up he grabbed my left arm and told me to put my hands up as he started to disarm me of my firearm. At this time I notified the officer that I do not consent to any search and seizures and asked if I was being detained as he then stated that I wasn't.

What else would you like to know?
I just assume that everything a cop says is a lie. I tell them to go away and I do not consent to any encounter (either proactively or retroactively to an initial encounter).
 

Law abider

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Aug 17, 2011
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Ellsworth Wisconsin
how does someone look or appear suspicious ~fat belly with crack of arse showing or ?

quit providing further justification for any illegal acts the nice LE perpetrated against you!!

the moment he grab'd you they were out of order.!

you have, in a timely fashion, failed to raised the situational issue to local IA, or asked, via FOIA, for documented information on the police report or the 911 transcript verifying the nice LE's commentary; therefore, for all intents and purposes the 'you said' issue is moot.

ipse
I always hear on the news that the perp was acting suspiciously before being caught. Is there a statute that describes suspicious behavior? I am sure there is. I am going to find out. That's why part of the reason to have loitering laws. If you loiter too long at the gas station, cop will have you in escort hold.
 

Law abider

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Ellsworth Wisconsin
Here is something close.
968.24  Temporary questioning without arrest. After having identified himself or herself as a law enforcement officer, a law enforcement officer may stop a person in a public place for a reasonable period of time when the officer reasonably suspects that such person is committing, is about to commit or has committed a crime, and may demand the name and address of the person and an explanation of the person's conduct. Such detention and temporary questioning shall be conducted in the vicinity where the person was stopped.

History: 1993 a. 486.

Suspicious behavior of a driver and passenger justified detention. State v. Goebel, 103 Wis. 2d 203, 307 N.W.2d 915

http://law.justia.com/codes/wisconsin/2012/chapter-968/section-968.24

AAh Even cops admit reasonable suspicion lacks definition.

The term "reasonable suspicion" is not of constitutional derivation but was fashioned by the court to describe a level of suspicion lower than probable cause. The court has struggled to provide meaningful definitions of both terms, and law enforcement officers have likewise struggled to understand and apply the court's vague, general pronouncements. In Ornelas v. U.S., the court acknowledged the problem:


http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol/articles/2011/06/probable-cause-and-reasonable-suspicion.aspx.

I assume that cops can stop and question you for anything they deem suspicious. You could jump for joy on the sidewalk...oops here comes the officer...
 
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