BREAKING NEWS: At Least 10 Dead, 20 Hurt in Aurora Colorado Shooting Spree

[werner61]

This is a true and very important point.
In comparison to the general population, hardly anyone carries a gun. That's why these crazed single shooters can estimate that they will likely be unchallenged when they begin their mayham. Even if we doubled the gun carrying segment of the population, that estimation would still be pretty good.

Another important point is that even if there were, say, one citizen gun carrier in the audience, what is he/she going to do when the bullets start flying?

Running like hell to take cover is gonna be very high on the list of options. And properly so. Waiting around to see if you can engage is probably a high risk-low benefit strategy in this case.



It would not surprise me if there was a CCer or two in the audience last night. Who might've been unable or unwilling to take on a guy with a (AR-15?) rifle. Self-defense doesn't mean automatically shooting it out with some goof with a gun. If I'm at a movie with my kids and shots are fired from one direction--I grab those kids and head out in the other direction--even though I have a perfectly good gun on my hip and a reload in my pocket.

So even if there are GG guns in the house it doesn't mean that the shooter loses any bit of the advantage he has once he starts shooting.

Better to figure out how to keep the gun out of the hands of the murderous goofballs if possible, and if allowable under the law.

Hank Good point, As responsible gun owners how many have taken tactical shooting or defence tactics classes? I the enviroment that this was happening in it would be a very high risk low benefit situation. This guy had some type of body armor but was it a quality product or an e-bay special. He like most psycopaths has a very high intellegence level and planed this well. Say someone in the audience had a gun, say a .375 just say'n, and they were able to get a shot off. If this person missed and hit someone running in the path of his round that would be bad, or if he missed and the round killed someone in the theater next door this too would be bad. The shooter was no doubt a coward because he was wearing body armor in front of an unarmed audience, he gave up to the police without incident, he didn't even have the guts to put a round in his own head like most of these psycos do. If he was hit by a .357 round and he had quality BA he would be hurt and probably would have run, if the BA was not quality he would be dead. But that like you said would be unlikely. When someone has planned something like this there isn't much you can do except pray and cover.

 

[FallonJeeper]

If the supreme court has ruled that a police officer is not obligated to protect you, you actually think the theater will be required to? Nope. And this guy parked his car full of gear around back, went to the front and purchased a ticket, the propped open the fire exit so he could retrieve his stuff and re-enter the building.

I don't expect police to protect me. I only expect them to investigate after I've been killed or injured. But, police officer do not tell me that I can't defend myself. So this comparison does not related to this issue. Should the fire exit door be able to be propped open? No! Security should have been on top of this, and ensured nobody was entering the theater through a fire exit.

If the business is requiring me to leave my ability to defend myself in my car, then they must assume that responsibilty. If they can't assume that responsibilty and won't allow me to assume that responsibilty, then I don't feel safe being there and I move on, as stated earlier. I have that choice. This is the same test I use for all businesses. Allow me to defend myself or be willing, prepared and able to ensure my safety or else I give my business to somebody that can.

 

[LoneEchoWolf]

I don't expect police to protect me. I only expect them to investigate after I've been killed or injured. But, police officer do not tell me that I can't defend myself. So this comparison does not related to this issue. Should the fire exit door be able to be propped open? No! Security should have been on top of this, and ensured nobody was entering the theater through a fire exit.

If the business is requiring me to leave my ability to defend myself in my car, then they must assume that responsibilty. If they can't assume that responsibilty and won't allow me to assume that responsibilty, then I don't feel safe being there and I move on, as stated earlier. I have that choice. This is the same test I use for all businesses. Allow me to defend myself or be willing, prepared and able to ensure my safety or else I give my business to somebody that can.

well said sir!

 

[werner61]

So what do we know so far about this shooter?

--he was a med student, studying neuroscience
--he was an honors grad in undergraduate school
--he participated in several neuroscience research projects involving mind altering techniques
--he had several thousand dollars worth of firearms and ammo
--his apartment was rigged with sophisticated booby traps, explosives and incendiary devices
--he has almost no "record" in the legal system
--he was described by classmaates as "quiet, shy and introverted"
--he was unemployed
--he surrendered calmly and without any resistance to the police after the shooting and told them his home was booby trapped

So how does an unemployed grad student get thousands of dollars worth of guns, ammo, tactical gear and bombs?

Where does a unemployed grad student get the training to build bobby traps and bombs?

Can we say "Manchurian Candidate" boys and girls?

Can we say "False Flag?" boys and girls?

Can we say "inside job" boys and girls?

The UN Small Arms Treaty is coming up for signing. The "Gun Control" industry has seen nothing but defeat in the Courts lately. Americans are buying firearms at RECORD numbers. Anti-gun politicians are being sent to the unemployment lines every election.

This event is just a little too conveniently timed to pass the "sniff test" in my book...

At this point we don't KNOW Jack, only what we are being fed by the media and you know how that goes. Are you trying to say the Gov. has set loose a Jason Borne to fuel the need for gun control? Seriously, that is FICTION! This is a real life tragedy people died, don't stir the pot that will happen all on it's own. Keep it real.

 

[LoneEchoWolf]

At this point we don't KNOW Jack, only what we are being fed by the media and you know how that goes. Are you trying to say the Gov. has set loose a Jason Borne to fuel the need for gun control? Seriously, that is FICTION! This is a real life tragedy people died, don't stir the pot that will happen all on it's own. Keep it real.

Hoorah! prayers are with anyone touched by this tragic event and i pray they all pull through!

 

[EmtFFKev]

Actually, had the gunman purchased a ticket with a rifle, shot gun and swat gear on, somebody might have had a clue. But this guy came in through a fire exit. There was no security to stop this guy. They should have had control. If an establishment is going to deny me my right to defend myself, then they better damned well be prepared and able to provide security that will ensure my safety and well being. If they can't I'm moving on.

I see a huge law suit coming to the movie theater.

Just read this on a local news website. Apparently the shooter was a ticketed customer, he then exited the theater through an emergency exit where he had staged his gear, then re-entered to start his rampage.

A federal law enforcement official said Holmes bought a ticket to the show, went into the theater as part of the crowd and propped open an exit door as the movie was playing. The suspect then donned protective ballistic gear and opened fire, the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss the ongoing investigation.

http://www.wral.com/news/story/11340047/

My question: Why was he able to exit through the emergency exit undetected? These are supposed to have an audible alarm when they are opened.

I whole-heartedly agree that the theater is going to face some sort of responsibility law suit here. If there had been some functioning equipment on the doors, maybe someone would have noticed him slipping out.

 

[LoneEchoWolf]

Just read this on a local news website. Apparently the shooter was a ticketed customer, he then exited the theater through an emergency exit where he had staged his gear, then re-entered to start his rampage.


http://www.wral.com/news/story/11340047/

My question: Why was he able to exit through the emergency exit undetected? These are supposed to have an audible alarm when they are opened.

I whole-heartedly agree that the theater is going to face some sort of responsibility law suit here. If there had been some functioning equipment on the doors, maybe someone would have noticed him slipping out.

Well that theater uses these "emergency exits" which are only really exits as exits at the end of the movies instead of exiting through the main lobby, these doors do not have a fire alarm on them but are suppose-to be locked at all times from the outside and there is no handle he propped it open so he could re enter. No one working there noticed him do this while he was changing and closed the door behind him no security apparently there to notice this weird thing happen a person get up exit in the middle of the trailers prop the door open these things are red flags to me. should have been to them if they were there, which I'm assuming they were not since there was nothing said about it as of yet.

 

[sharkey]

While I may or may not carry in a theatre (illegal in NC), this is a situation that I feel even having a gun wouldn't have helped much. This guy popped tear gas, was wearing a bullet proof vest and a riot helmet as well as a gas mask. What could I honestly have been able to do in this situation? Not a dang thing but hide under the seats and hope he didn't see me. He had all the advantages. Shooting at him with your eyes watering closed from tear gas, in a dark theater would be a death sentence. The noise of gunfire, the darkness, the tear gas would have been so disorienting that you would have no clue he had on a vest or a helmet. If you were actually able to find the shooter and take a shot, you would most likely hit his vest, and he would be able to calmly mow you down. Definitely not a situation I would ever want to be in.

I was stopped at a red light once when shots were being fired in close proximity. I could not locate the shooter, ducked down, and floored it the **** outta there through the red light. I was not armed, had I been my response would have been the same.

The shooter had all the advantage, I had none since I had no idea where he was and sure would not have risked my ass looking for him.

In another instance I had someone shooting in the direction of my house from the road behind it. After fear turned to anger I jumped in my vehicle and went looking for him with the intent of running him over. 911 said they didn't care that my house was being shot at unless someone was hit. :cuss:

Every situation is different and it's hard to say which would kick in first, fear or anger. But my thought is I would not have engaged this shooter.

 

[CaptainHoneySmacks]

I have done my fair share of time in the sandbox. Most people cannot imagine what it actually feels like to be shot at, its not what you think it will be like. The human fight or flight response is so strong you wouldn't even believe what you are doing when it comes to self preservation. When you get cranked up (adreneline pumping, raised heart rate, etc) its not a magical moment where you suddenly turn into an awesome movie actor. You are driven by fear, by instinct, and by the desire to survive. You awareness and reaction time are improved, but the flight response is hard to resist. Training helps a great deal, but not does do everything for you. Training gives you muscle memory, so your body is more likely to resort to what you have trained. Nothing can prepare you fully for reality though. You can never truly know how you will react to these situation unless you have experinced the real deal before. The term "keep calm, remember your training" does not truly carry over. When your cranked, your thoughts do not calm even after you have the experince. Ask any other combat vet and they will tell you the same. When bullets fly, you become a different person. It can give you amazing strength and bravery or it can turn you into the coward you never thought you could even be. Im sure medics/EMT/etc can agree with this. Did your training prepare you completely for your first life or death response? For knowing that their life was in your hands?

Anyways, back on topic. A speedy recovery to those who were injured and RIP for those who were killed by this freak. I don't think he should be killed, ending his life is not equal to all the death, pain, and suffering he has caused. He should be chained to a chair and forced to watch videos and slideshows of all his victims, their families, and their precious memories so he knows what he has taken away. Leave him in the chair for the rest of his miserable life. Occasionally some bread and water.

 

[esperman]

I agree with Medic's points. In this situation I'd hope to remain calm, get low to the ground for bearings and defend or flee depending on what opportunity arises. A well placed shot in the face mask, or feet would be great. Would that opportunity have arisen? Who knows...maybe some one was CC and couldn't engage. After all, you had 200+ people in pandemonium.

In any case, it's a horrible thing done by a nut case. My heart aches for those innocent kids in the theatre.

Since I don't feel like multi-quoting and responding point by point to the comments directed at me, questioning my thought process, I'll just say, I am very pro RKBA, and pro self defense. That being said, it also appears I'm the only one man enough to admit that I ain't Rambo. Whole lotta arm chair quarterbacking from the mall ninjas who think that they would somehow be impervious to the tear gas, that they would be able to make sense of what was going on when one second you're watching a movie, and the next, you're coughing and can't breathe or see through the cloud of tear gas. That despite all that, you'd actually be able to focus enough to pick out the gunman amongst the panicked crowd running around you trying to flee. That you'd have the wherewithal to crawl through the tear gas cloud and get a clean angle on the gunman during all the screaming and gunfire going on around you, and actually focus your sights on him in the dark, with your eyes closing because of the tear gas. Sorry, but reality can be a hard pill to swallow.

To think this guy didn't expect any armed resistance is crazy. He wore a freakin bullet proof vest and riot helmet. He fully expected someone to shoot back. So, If you wanna call me a wuss for realizing and admitting that scenario was something that would be challenging for a highly trained operative, much less a simple law abiding armed citizen enjoying a movie, then have at it. Enjoy your fantasy where you'd be the guy that saved the day and made national news as the guy who stopped a massacre. Reality leans more to you just ending up in a body bag like the other 14. You can debate it until your blue in the face.

I'd have to say, probably the only way I would have tried to intervene would be if the guy was right beside me with his back turned. Even then I can't honestly say how I would respond, just like none of you mall ninjas can honestly say how you would have responded when the tear gas canister exploded and the gunfire erupted. So yeah, i would very likely hunker down and protect my family, and try my best to be ready if the gunman approaches me. I just pray I'm never in a scenario like this.

Another question... Let's say there were 12 armed citizens there, including all the mall ninjas. How many of you would be able to differentiate the armed citizen from the perp? Remember, the theater is dark, tear gas is affecting your respiratory system and vision, and your ears are ringing from the deafening gunfire. Oh, that's right, you're a mall ninja... You'd instantly recognize the good guys from the bad, and only shoot at the bad guy. Yeah, have a nice time in fantasy land. I'll be here when you decide to return to reality.

 

[Nevada carrier]

I would have thought there would have been more killed given number of shot and weapons used.

The VT shooter only had handguns and he killed almost 3 times as many people with much fewer hit.

I am wondering if many of those shot in CO were hit with shotgun pellets.

The AR with the 100 rd mag should have killed about 30 people by itself.

the .223/5.56mm round was not made to kill, it was made to cause serious injury. This is why we use it on the battlefield. Killing one enemy combatant takes only one enemy combatant out of the fight. Injuring one enemy combatant takes many more out of the fight who must render them aid. Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[sharkey]

Disgusting.

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/...nra-article-1.1119049?localLinksEnabled=false

 

[Nevada carrier]

So what do we know so far about this shooter?

--he was a med student, studying neuroscience
--he was an honors grad in undergraduate school
--he participated in several neuroscience research projects involving mind altering techniques
--he had several thousand dollars worth of firearms and ammo
--his apartment was rigged with sophisticated booby traps, explosives and incendiary devices
--he has almost no "record" in the legal system
--he was described by classmaates as "quiet, shy and introverted"
--he was unemployed
--he surrendered calmly and without any resistance to the police after the shooting and told them his home was booby trapped

So how does an unemployed grad student get thousands of dollars worth of guns, ammo, tactical gear and bombs?

Where does a unemployed grad student get the training to build bobby traps and bombs?

Can we say "Manchurian Candidate" boys and girls?

Can we say "False Flag?" boys and girls?

Can we say "inside job" boys and girls?

The UN Small Arms Treaty is coming up for signing. The "Gun Control" industry has seen nothing but defeat in the Courts lately. Americans are buying firearms at RECORD numbers. Anti-gun politicians are being sent to the unemployment lines every election.

This event is just a little too conveniently timed to pass the "sniff test" in my book...

This

 

[Medic1210]

The theater has control of the safety of there patrons just as a amusement park does is the point. they normally have a off duty police officer as security on weekends, not weekdays, being it was Thursday there was no security on the property, maybe the adjoining mall security but thats doubtful. yes as a customer i willingly decided to disarm and put my life in there hands, them taking my money is almost agreeing that they will provide some security for my life once i disarm and enter there building just as getting on any ride in a park you assume that they have security in place so that something will not happen that will kill you.

Key point of your statement in bold. Just because you assume they accept responsibility for your security doesn't make it do. So what if the movie theater has a security guard on duty. Would they be liable for the first few killed before he could respond? Nope. When you last bought a movie ticket, where on there did it say anything about them accepting responsibility for your security or life? Nowhere is it stated or implied that you have paid for anything more than the price for admission to watch the movie. Sorry, but they are not liable for what that madman did.

 

[EmtFFKev]

This may change a lot of peoples outlook on whether they would react to defend or not...

Just found through CNN, they showed a copy of the invoice for his purchase of the media labeled "Ballistic vest". The vest he wore was a Blackhawk Urban Assault Vest. Hate to advise them of this, but that vest has no ballistic properties at all. It is made of nylon, not the kevlar they are reporting.

Link to CNN article (doesn't show invoice, that was shown on screen on TV) that lists the items he purchased:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/20/justice/colorado-shooting-weapons/index.html?iid=article_sidebar

Link to vest at TacticalGear.com where he purchased them:
http://tacticalgear.com/blackhawk-urban-assault-vest

Anyone still think that an armed citizen or two that reacted to the shooter wouldn't have made much of a difference?

 

[twoskinsonemanns]

Don't get your feelings hurt. It isn't personal.

There is a difference.

Thanks for the link. I learned something.

 

[Medic1210]

I don't expect police to protect me. I only expect them to investigate after I've been killed or injured. But, police officer do not tell me that I can't defend myself. So this comparison does not related to this issue. Should the fire exit door be able to be propped open? No! Security should have been on top of this, and ensured nobody was entering the theater through a fire exit.

If the business is requiring me to leave my ability to defend myself in my car, then they must assume that responsibilty. If they can't assume that responsibilty and won't allow me to assume that responsibilty, then I don't feel safe being there and I move on, as stated earlier. I have that choice. This is the same test I use for all businesses. Allow me to defend myself or be willing, prepared and able to ensure my safety or else I give my business to somebody that can.

You said it. You have the choice to disarm and stay, or to take your business elsewhere. Just because you decide to stay doesn't mean they have to accept responsibility for your personal safety from an attack. Sure, you can sure them. You can sure for anything. Doesn't mean the courts will rule in your favor.

 

[Medic1210]

I have done my fair share of time in the sandbox. Most people cannot imagine what it actually feels like to be shot at, its not what you think it will be like. The human fight or flight response is so strong you wouldn't even believe what you are doing when it comes to self preservation. When you get cranked up (adreneline pumping, raised heart rate, etc) its not a magical moment where you suddenly turn into an awesome movie actor. You are driven by fear, by instinct, and by the desire to survive. You awareness and reaction time are improved, but the flight response is hard to resist. Training helps a great deal, but not does do everything for you. Training gives you muscle memory, so your body is more likely to resort to what you have trained. Nothing can prepare you fully for reality though. You can never truly know how you will react to these situation unless you have experinced the real deal before. The term "keep calm, remember your training" does not truly carry over. When your cranked, your thoughts do not calm even after you have the experince. Ask any other combat vet and they will tell you the same. When bullets fly, you become a different person. It can give you amazing strength and bravery or it can turn you into the coward you never thought you could even be. Im sure medics/EMT/etc can agree with this. Did your training prepare you completely for your first life or death response? For knowing that their life was in your hands?

Anyways, back on topic. A speedy recovery to those who were injured and RIP for those who were killed by this freak. I don't think he should be killed, ending his life is not equal to all the death, pain, and suffering he has caused. He should be chained to a chair and forced to watch videos and slideshows of all his victims, their families, and their precious memories so he knows what he has taken away. Leave him in the chair for the rest of his miserable life. Occasionally some bread and water.

Very well said sir!

 

[Medic1210]

This

Well, at least your avatar fits

 

[HankT]

Disgusting.

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/...nra-article-1.1119049?localLinksEnabled=false

This is pretty logical:

Obama said in part: “If there’s anything to take away from this tragedy, it’s the reminder that life is very fragile, our time here is limited and it is precious, and what matters at the end of the day is not the small things, it’s not the trivial things which so often consume us and our daily lives.”

With all due respect, the presidential takeaway should have been a drive for strengthened gun control, if only for the assault weapons ban.

It's a logical move for Obama to now propose a new (or same) AWB. Yesterday morning I thought that was highly probable--what with Obama showing signs of weakness in his reelection effort.

But the NRA and the pro-gun rights constituencies evidently have Obama cowed.

I keep thinking, if Obama sees the election slipping away ...what does he have to lose?

And if some new goof(s) with a gun does a copycat event somewhere in the U.S. in the next few months . . . well then maybe the Australia case would become relevant.

Personally, I think that some lawful and legal effort to prevent Holmes-type events is a good idea. Possibly a great idea if it could be effective. The devil is in the details--how to do it. And how to do it so that it passes constitutional muster. Would the 1994-2004 AWB pass constituional muster today?

I don't know.




xxx