imported post
Bellbw-
Bear with me while I relate a story that may answer your question.
A neighbors 18 year old son had a "pitbull" type dog that he routinely allowed to run free. The dog began to show up on my property regularly. There are almost 800 yards and two other properties between my house and this neighbors property. On a few occasions I spoke with his parents and asked them to speak to their son and have him control the dogs wanderings.
After repeated attempts had failed to produce results, as a last resort, I spoke to Prince William Animal Control. They told me they had already received complaints on this dog from every other neighbor within 5 houses of my own, and advised they could do nothing unless they actually caught the dog off it's property. They suggested that I had a right to dispatch the dog if it was on my property and becoming a nuisance. In my mind killing the dog for the errors of an irresponsible owner would be an absolute last resort.
One morning my wife was walking our two dogs (on leash) in our driveway. They were perhaps 300 feet from our nearest property line, In other-words they were well within our property. Out of nowhere the neighbors dog appeared and tried to attack them. She was barely able to keep our two shepherd size dogs under control and get them back into the house. The "visiting" dog followed them as far as the porch. By the time I got outside to enter the fray the dog was gone.
I went to the neighbors house to discuss the matter, and was met by the dog in the driveway. It would not allow me to exit the car safely (ok since I was in his yard now). The 18 year old son soon appeared as well, and I spoke to him from the car. I explained the situation, and asked him again to control the dog. What happened next was a very near disaster.
I explained that based on advice from Animal control that the dog could be legally shot if it was causing problems on the land of another. The young man, who fashioned himself as a bit of a gangster, put a cigarette in his mouth, looked me straight in the eye and said "Well suppose I just get my gun and blow you F..ing head off".
He then reached into his pants pocket and as his hand returned into view I caught a glint of metal. I unholstered my concealed .45 and began to bring it to bear. The object in his hand appeared to me to be a .25 auto sized pistol, which he raised to his head level and slowly moved toward the cigarette. For me time stopped, because I knew I was about to have to shoot this kid in self defense. Imagine my surprise, when without pointing the gun at me he pulled the trigger and lit the cigarette. Only then did I realize that what he had was a lighter modeled after a .25 auto.
He was so focused on his attitude and projecting his bravado that he never saw my weapon, and I lowered it to the floor of the truck and set it down, as by then it was clear to me that he was all about bluster and was not a threat. I opened the door and stepped to the ground so he could see I was about 6 inches taller and 30 pounds heaver than he was. And tried to calmly explain to him the concept of "fighting words" and how he should consider carefully how he communicated with people he did not know. He backed off, and walked away muttering somehting I could not hear.
Well to shorten an already too long story, I left. When I got to work I contacted the Prince William Police and requested to speak to the duty Officer. I related the entire story and asked to have an Officer meet me the next morning to accompany me to the neighbors house to talk to this young mans parents. This is not standard proceedue, but he reluctantly agreed. I wanted an Officer along to not only keep the peace, but to explain the law to the kid. During that conversation, the duty Officer informed me that I would probably have been justified in shoot this young man under the described circumstances. Especially since the dog was also present and under his control at the time (two weapons - His words not mine)
So here is the kicker. I met the Officer at my house and we drive over to the neighbors house. The parents come out and we discuss the matter with them. At that point the Officer requests to talk to their son. They call him out, and through body language, and responses he is making it clear that he thinks he has done nothing wrong and the whole situation is bogus.
As we are all standing there the kid gets out a cigarette, reaches in his pocket, and pulls out the lighter. Instantly the Officer draws down on him and orders him to freeze. His parents run out into the yard clear of all of us, and the kid freezes and just stares at the Officer. The Officer orders the kid to "Drop the gun". In astonishment the kid starts to say something, but the Officer interrupts him, and screaming this time, orders him to drop the gun and get on the ground, He still acted slowly, and was again ordered to drop the gun. Finally he drops it, but then comments that it is just a lighter.
Finally the lighter is in the hands of the Officer, and after a long discussion about the law, the nature of threatening behavior, and a lot of other subjects, the Officer tells the kid he better get rid of the lighter because it is going to get him killed. We all part ways. But not before the Officer told me that under the conditions of an immediate threat to inflict injury or death, the appearance of what any reasonable person would assume was a gun, I would have in fact been legally justified in shooting. So would the Officer by the way.
The situation that prompted me to write this described a situation that is related but a little less clear because there is no object resembling a weapon (capacity to carry out the threat) in your hypothesis.
Now before anyone jumps on this. We all know that a lot of people will claim they would have shot the kid. Others will claim I over reacted. You had to be there and you wern't so save the commments in those areas amd focus the discussion on the question justification for shooting. Had I taken this kid the day before or had the Officer done so, I would not have found ANY solace in the fact that the shooting was justified when it turned out to be just a lighter.
As an interesting side note, six months later this same kid knifed a 19 year old man in Ocean City MD, and subsequently fled the country to live with his uncle overseas.
As to another simular question raised by someone else-
After another incident I was told by an Officer that even being confronted by a group of people who threaten you with serious injury or possible death where no weapon is displayed, you could use deadly force to defend your self. In that case being significantly outnumbered makes it so unlikely that you could defend your self that alone constitutes the ability to carry out the threat of serious injury or death, and their proximity to you makes carrying out the threat possible. However it is required of a person carrying concealed in such a situation to put the potential attackers on notice that you are armed and prepared to defend yourself. You may even have to try to retreat, and of course there is the "First cause" doctrine that may come into play.
Most important people reading this should not take it as legal advice. You have to decide on your own what to do when you see the elephant. It is however what I was told by two Officers for two specific incidents. Obviously the prosecutor in your area is the final word on charges. These are just examples of what I have been told after a few incidents I have been involved with. Your mileage WILL vary, and if you do shoot you should probably expect that you will be arrested and prosecuted (probably sued too), even if the shooting was justified. That is just the way things are. So please if you have questions about what might be legal and what might not, consult a lawyer.
Regards
