Ask LEO a question

[Citizen]

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wylde007 wrote:

Sheriff wrote:

Here'sone link, cop too scared to act, even though his partner wanted to jump out and do the right thing.

SNIP I wonder if that fear now is propagated by the knowledge that the perp may be far-better armed than they are?

That's been thecase going back years, so I'm pretty confident that would not bethe reason.

Just off the cuff, I can think back to the 1920's or 30's where some bad guys had Thompson sub-machine guns. I imagine sawed-off rifles and sawed-off shotguns made for even earlier disparity in firepower for the average revolver-armed cop.

 

[acrimsontide]

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Citizen wrote:

wylde007 wrote:

Sheriff wrote:

Here'sone link, cop too scared to act, even though his partner wanted to jump out and do the right thing.

SNIP I wonder if that fear now is propagated by the knowledge that the perp may be far-better armed than they are?

That's been thecase going back years, so I'm pretty confident that would not bethe reason.

Just off the cuff, I can think back to the 1920's or 30's where some bad guys had Thompson sub-machine guns. I imagine sawed-off rifles and sawed-off shotguns made for even earlier disparity in firepower for the average revolver-armed cop.

I agree

 

[SaltH2OHokie]

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In a traffic stop, say I'm not armed...would you prefer to still see the permit? If so, or say I am armed, do you want my VA permit only or does it help to hand you my license, VA permit and NH permit?

Thanks.

Ryan

 

[nova]

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SaltH2OHokie wrote:

In a traffic stop, say I'm not armed...would you prefer to still see the permit? If so, or say I am armed, do you want my VA permit only or does it help to hand you my license, VA permit and NH permit?

Thanks.

Ryan

NH Permit isn't valid in VA anways so I'd just stick with your VA CHP and DL if asked.

 

[Sheriff]

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Citizen wrote:

......I can think back to the 1920's or 30's where some bad guys had Thompson sub-machine guns. I imagine sawed-off rifles and sawed-off shotguns made for even earlier disparity in firepower for the average revolver-armed cop.

Yeah, agreed. The ole "outgunned" and "meaner people nowadays" are very poor excuses.

Butseriously, what did you expect from a rookie? :lol:

 

[SaltH2OHokie]

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nova wrote:

SaltH2OHokie wrote:

In a traffic stop, say I'm not armed...would you prefer to still see the permit? If so, or say I am armed, do you want my VA permit only or does it help to hand you my license, VA permit and NH permit?

Thanks.

Ryan

NH Permit isn't valid in VA anways so I'd just stick with your VA CHP and DL if asked.

I'm aware it isn't valid as a VA permit, but I've got one of those, too.

I'm just looking for a cop's point of view because I was unarmed during a traffic stop recently and the cop seemed a bit irritated that I didn't tell him I had my permit right up front in spite of my being unarmed, so I'm curious if just handing over every bit of permitting/licensing I've got would make a cop feel better and/or worry less.

My thinking prior to that was that stop was that it didn't matter since I was leaving a basketball game at school and wasn't armed, so I didn't really need to show him anything extra, but apparently that guy felt otherwise. Curious what LEO229 thinks on the subject.

 

[Citizen]

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SaltH2OHokie wrote:

SNIP ...I was unarmed during a traffic stop recently and the cop seemed a bit irritated that I didn't tell him I had my permit right up front in spite of my being unarmed, so I'm curious if just handing over every bit of permitting/licensing I've got would make a cop feel better and/or worry less.

The cop was out of line. You are not legally required to notify the LEO even if you are carrying your gun concealed, neither about the gun nor the existence of the permit.

If he got irritated over not being told about a permit when there was not a gun present, I wonder how he would have reacted had you told him you were actually carrying?

This isn't the first time we've come across this LEO attitude thatcitizens have an obligation of some sort to notify them. Its gone so far as to result in threats. Mrs. ChinChin received a threat over failing to notify some time back. Another forum member was told he would have been shot if he had gotten out of the car--even if he had no gun in his hand, even if he had left the gun at home.

As to making the cop feel better/worry less, having created his own ideas on this subject, he creates his own negative emotionsor worries arising from those ideas. He is operating under a false premise--that decent law-abiding citizens aresomehow obligated to notify.Desiring to make him feel better/worry less is accommodating hisskewed ideas.

His ideas are whatneed correcting. Notadditional extra-legal disclosures by you that may trigger your removal from the car, aTerry search of both you and the passenger compartment areas within your reach, and if you arelegally armed, atemporary seizure ofpersonal property(gun), and serial numbercheck.

They can't make a prohibited possessor notify that he his armed (5th Amend.)Butlaw-abiding citizens are expected by some LEOs to cooperate in their legal exposure?

Irecommend a brief formal complaint for any unprofessional conduct you received arising from your exercise of everyday common sense andnot notifying. Put this attitude back in a little black box and stuff itback up under the slimy rock from which crawled.

Once you have established that it is yourtotally unrestricted right to notify or not. Then you can make your own free choice whether to notify. Say to be nice voluntarily. Or, to maybe make it easier for theLEO to down-grade the traffic citation.

Don't overlook how far afield this cop's attitude really was. Based on reports here, there seem to be a number of cops who just don't care about a lawfully carried gun. "OK. Just don't reach towards it. May I see your license and registration, please."

 

[acrimsontide]

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I wouldappreciate hearingsome of the active LEO's thoughts on the "staging" of officers before answering a call. It would be interesting to know their thoughts on this issue.

 

[SaltH2OHokie]

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Citizen wrote:

SaltH2OHokie wrote:

SNIP ...I was unarmed during a traffic stop recently and the cop seemed a bit irritated that I didn't tell him I had my permit right up front in spite of my being unarmed, so I'm curious if just handing over every bit of permitting/licensing I've got would make a cop feel better and/or worry less.

The cop was out of line..."OK. Just don't reach towards it. May I see your license and registration, please."

I don't necessarily agree. He was just doing his job and me carrying a gun may have made him feel uncomfortable. I have a friend who open carries, but gets jittery when he sees other people open carrying that he doesn't know. Healthy distrust of something that can kill you in an instant isn't that bad of a concept.

If I think that A.) I can make him feel better by volunteering that I'm a law-abiding citizen and B.) that making him feel better might help my chances of getting a warning rather than a ticket THEN you can bet I'm handing everything over, asked for or not, required to or not. It's not like in a traffic stop he isn't going to get my license either way and then subsequently see that I have a VA CHP, so all I'm doing is speeding up the process a touch.

That's just me...I'm looking for a LEO's opinion to see how my assumptions stack up with reality from their point of view.

 

[para_org]

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SaltH2OHokie wrote:

Citizen wrote:

SaltH2OHokie wrote:

SNIP ...I was unarmed during a traffic stop recently and the cop seemed a bit irritated that I didn't tell him I had my permit right up front in spite of my being unarmed, so I'm curious if just handing over every bit of permitting/licensing I've got would make a cop feel better and/or worry less.

The cop was out of line..."OK. Just don't reach towards it. May I see your license and registration, please."

I don't necessarily agree. He was just doing his job and me carrying a gun may have made him feel uncomfortable. I have a friend who open carries, but gets jittery when he sees other people open carrying that he doesn't know. Healthy distrust of something that can kill you in an instant isn't that bad of a concept.

If I think that A.) I can make him feel better by volunteering that I'm a law-abiding citizen and B.) that making him feel better might help my chances of getting a warning rather than a ticket THEN you can bet I'm handing everything over, asked for or not, required to or not. It's not like in a traffic stop he isn't going to get my license either way and then subsequently see that I have a VA CHP, so all I'm doing is speeding up the process a touch.

That's just me...I'm looking for a LEO's opinion to see how my assumptions stack up with reality from their point of view.

This is NOT a personal rebuke per se.... but I just can never understand why I should so willingly give up rights to make a cop feel better. I have a hard enough time making sense of why they would want to so willingly place themselves above the law in the first place, let alone make sense out of trying to appease them in the process.

Sorry, this kind of attitude of placating a cop just makes me uncomfortable. As a rule cops that so willingly want to be made comfortable at the expense of my rights (and just application of the rules of society) are part of the problem and I will be damned if I add to their comfort.

 

[blt38]

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Question: If I get stopped on a routine stop and I am CCing. How and when should I let the officer know?

 

[SaltH2OHokie]

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para_org wrote:

SaltH2OHokie wrote:

Citizen wrote:

SaltH2OHokie wrote:

SNIP ...I was unarmed during a traffic stop recently and the cop seemed a bit irritated that I didn't tell him I had my permit right up front in spite of my being unarmed, so I'm curious if just handing over every bit of permitting/licensing I've got would make a cop feel better and/or worry less.

The cop was out of line..."OK. Just don't reach towards it. May I see your license and registration, please."

I don't necessarily agree. He was just doing his job and me carrying a gun may have made him feel uncomfortable. I have a friend who open carries, but gets jittery when he sees other people open carrying that he doesn't know. Healthy distrust of something that can kill you in an instant isn't that bad of a concept.

If I think that A.) I can make him feel better by volunteering that I'm a law-abiding citizen and B.) that making him feel better might help my chances of getting a warning rather than a ticket THEN you can bet I'm handing everything over, asked for or not, required to or not. It's not like in a traffic stop he isn't going to get my license either way and then subsequently see that I have a VA CHP, so all I'm doing is speeding up the process a touch.

That's just me...I'm looking for a LEO's opinion to see how my assumptions stack up with reality from their point of view.

This is NOT a personal rebuke per se.... but I just can never understand why I should so willingly give up rights to make a cop feel better. I have a hard enough time making sense of why they would want to so willingly place themselves above the law in the first place, let alone make sense out of trying to appease them in the process.

Sorry, this kind of attitude of placating a cop just makes me uncomfortable. As a rule cops that so willingly want to be made comfortable at the expense of my rights (and just application of the rules of society) are part of the problem and I will be damned if I add to their comfort.

What am I giving up? My right to hold my license and permits in my wallet? I'm not talking about my gun, I'm talking about telling the cop I have a permit to carry one...

 

[para_org]

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blt38 wrote:

Question: If I get stopped on a routine stop and I am CCing. How and when should I let the officer know?

Depends where you are (which state). The state being currently discussed has NO requirement to say that you are carrying if I read these messages correctly.

 

[blt38]

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OK, thanks, I was ASSUMING that I was in the VA thread. I should have clarified by saying I was talking about VA. Sorry for the confusion

 

[para_org]

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SaltH2OHokie wrote:

para_org wrote:

SaltH2OHokie wrote:

Citizen wrote:

SaltH2OHokie wrote:

SNIP ...I was unarmed during a traffic stop recently and the cop seemed a bit irritated that I didn't tell him I had my permit right up front in spite of my being unarmed, so I'm curious if just handing over every bit of permitting/licensing I've got would make a cop feel better and/or worry less.

The cop was out of line..."OK. Just don't reach towards it. May I see your license and registration, please."

I don't necessarily agree. He was just doing his job and me carrying a gun may have made him feel uncomfortable. I have a friend who open carries, but gets jittery when he sees other people open carrying that he doesn't know. Healthy distrust of something that can kill you in an instant isn't that bad of a concept.

If I think that A.) I can make him feel better by volunteering that I'm a law-abiding citizen and B.) that making him feel better might help my chances of getting a warning rather than a ticket THEN you can bet I'm handing everything over, asked for or not, required to or not. It's not like in a traffic stop he isn't going to get my license either way and then subsequently see that I have a VA CHP, so all I'm doing is speeding up the process a touch.

That's just me...I'm looking for a LEO's opinion to see how my assumptions stack up with reality from their point of view.

This is NOT a personal rebuke per se.... but I just can never understand why I should so willingly give up rights to make a cop feel better. I have a hard enough time making sense of why they would want to so willingly place themselves above the law in the first place, let alone make sense out of trying to appease them in the process.

Sorry, this kind of attitude of placating a cop just makes me uncomfortable. As a rule cops that so willingly want to be made comfortable at the expense of my rights (and just application of the rules of society) are part of the problem and I will be damned if I add to their comfort.

What am I giving up? My right to hold my license and permits in my wallet? I'm not talking about my gun, I'm talking about telling the cop I have a permit to carry one...

Um I guess you don't understand that if you willingly disclose that which you need not disclose, then you risk not having such a rule of law to prevent the cops from doing so in the future. i.e. It is best (IMHO) to never willing tell a cop a damn thing. Besides being intrepreted against you for reasons you cannot know beforehand; if we disclose information to cops today willingly, tommorrow we may be forced to since it was not a concern today.

And yes things really DO work that way. Ask an honest cop or an honest lawyer or an honest judge.

 

[Citizen]

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SaltH2OHokie wrote:

para_org wrote:

SaltH2OHokie wrote:

Citizen wrote:

SaltH2OHokie wrote:

SNIP ...I was unarmed during a traffic stop recently and the cop seemed a bit irritated that I didn't tell him I had my permit right up front in spite of my being unarmed, so I'm curious if just handing over every bit of permitting/licensing I've got would make a cop feel better and/or worry less.

SNIP The cop was out of line..."OK. Just don't reach towards it. May I see your license and registration, please."

SNIP I don't necessarily agree.

SNIP This is NOT a personal rebuke per se.... but I just can never understand why I should so willingly give up rights to make a cop feel better.

SNIP What am I giving up? My right to hold my license and permits in my wallet? I'm not talking about my gun, I'm talking about telling the cop I have a permit to carry one...

As with many things there are elements of truth in what you say, Salt. Literally, you are not giving up muchas far as an express right goes. You are exposing yourself to more right after that, though.

I've already answered your question partially. Permit me to elaborate. You are potentially "giving up" your right to free of unreasonable searches and seizures by giving information to the officer.

We all know there issomewiggle room incase law for cops, meaning how one interpretsand/or "stretches" the case law. Andsome cops will definitely use it. And if they use it, you will have such a hurdle and such an expenseenforcingrecognition of your 4A rights after the fact thatit basically makes no senseto try. Basically, the hurdles, for the complaintant, are so burdensome he is basically barriered from enforcing recognition of his4A rights.

Let me explain how I see this might play out, depending on the cop. You notify you are licensed. You are not actually carrying.You notify also that you are not carrying, or you don't notify. Youjust gave the cop what may easily be stretched to include reason to believe you may be armed. Even if you said you aren't. I've talked tomore than one cop, and we have read here that police claim thathaving a CHP, being backround checked, etc. counts for nothing. "We never know if he is having a bad day" or "wasa crook all along, but without a record" or some such justification for not exercising judgement.

Once thecopdecides there might be a weapon, depending on the cop, you might now be ordered out of your car, Terry-searched, and the reachable areas in your car searched. We've all read about cops who automatically seize gunswithout regard to dangerousness. We've all read about cops who've asked to have the gun so they could run the serial number claiming they,"have to make sure it isn't stolen."

This in no way reduces my earlier statement that it is totally your unrestricted choice to notify or notfor your own tactical reasons.

As to asking this particular cop on this particular thread,I think we prettymuch know what the answer will be. "The cop will appreciate it." (Each cop for his own reasons, especially the cop who is looking to run a serial number or search the car).

I suspect the answer will completely overlook the 4A exposure. And will ignore thatsome cops may take advantage of that exposure. This particular cop and I have gone round and round on this point before. It took something liketwo pages ofthread before I got agrudging, sidewaysacknowledgement fromhim that an undisclosed/un-notified, CHP'd handgunis protected by the 4A. If he was willing to argue over and over that the 4A didn't protect an undisclosed, CHP'd handgun, I already know what his candid answer to your question is gonna be.

 

[para_org]

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blt38 wrote:

OK, thanks, I was ASSUMING that I was in the VA thread. I should have clarified by saying I was talking about VA. Sorry for the confusion

And yes... that is the state we are discussing. And the question was answered in the last page or two.

 

[SaltH2OHokie]

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Citizen wrote:

SaltH2OHokie wrote:

para_org wrote:

SaltH2OHokie wrote:

Citizen wrote:

SaltH2OHokie wrote:

SNIP ...I was unarmed during a traffic stop recently and the cop seemed a bit irritated that I didn't tell him I had my permit right up front in spite of my being unarmed, so I'm curious if just handing over every bit of permitting/licensing I've got would make a cop feel better and/or worry less.

SNIP The cop was out of line..."OK. Just don't reach towards it. May I see your license and registration, please."

SNIP I don't necessarily agree.

SNIP This is NOT a personal rebuke per se.... but I just can never understand why I should so willingly give up rights to make a cop feel better.

SNIP What am I giving up? My right to hold my license and permits in my wallet? I'm not talking about my gun, I'm talking about telling the cop I have a permit to carry one...

[truncated] (just to be different and not type 'Snip'...) As with many things there are elements of truth in what you say, Salt. Literally, you are not giving up muchas far as an express right goes. You are exposing yourself to more right after that, though.

I understand where you're coming from, but the order of events (in a very condensed version) when I was stopped recently were:

1.) LEO: Do you know why I stopped you/License, registration please/wait right here.

2.) I never volunteered that I had a permit or that I was or was not carrying.

3.) LEO (upon returning), paraphrased/shortened: "Are you armed tonight Mr. Richardson?" ME: "No, I'm coming back from school, why?" LEO: Just shows you have a permit... (trailing off as if he'd rather I'd have told him that ahead of time).

So I never would have 'given up' anything other than what I was already asked...I would have just changed the order of events to make him feel more at ease and perhaps event 4 might have been "have a good night", instead of "sign here, have a good night".

 

[para_org]

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So you brought this up and it did not actually happen ? Hmmmm....

O.K. ; Well the proper answer, if you want to retain your rights AND retain your liberty (i.e. not go to jail), is not to volunteer a damn thing at any time.

 

[Citizen]

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SaltH2OHokie wrote:

SNIP I understand where you're coming from, but the order of events (in a very condensed version) when I was stopped recently were:...

So I never would have 'given up' anything other than what I was already asked...I would have just changed the order of events to make him feel more at ease and perhaps event 4 might have been "have a good night", instead of "sign here, have a good night".

Well, yes. That's what I said. I don't understand why there isa "but" or differing, now.