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What to do after a defensive shooting

WalkingWolf

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ww...a good friend who i trust and who runs EMT for local EMS says if they walk in and find a gunshot victim, w/o the police there they will immediately leave w/o rendering aide and drive a distance away until the scene is secure and protected by police.

i am unable to verify if this is standard policy but an working on it...will keep you apprised.

ipse

They might but they will still be on the scene when police arrive, and attend to the injured, being me. Besides they will not know if they have a gunshot victim until they examine them. Unless it is a head shot.

This is why I would not offer information in anyway that there was, is, or was part of a shooting. As far as the EMTs know they have a sick patient. AFA me being armed, I have already been in that situation, and it did not phase the EMTs a bit. My wife took control of the firearm, but once at the hospital the nurses secured the gun. It was returned to me as soon as I was discharged.

The only thing that EMTs could testify to or tell police is they found a gunshot victim. I would not even tell the EMTs I discharged a firearm.

You(general you) are not required by law to give up any information to anybody. Police or EMTs, or even hospital. It is only a crime if you attempt to cover up evidence, or lie to police. And unless things have changed once you are under a doctors care the doctor cannot release anything you tell them without your permission.
 
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JustaShooter

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ww...a good friend who i trust and who runs EMT for local EMS says if they walk in and find a gunshot victim, w/o the police there they will immediately leave w/o rendering aide and drive a distance away until the scene is secure and protected by police.

i am unable to verify if this is standard policy but an working on it...will keep you apprised.

ipse

During my Range Safety Officer training, we had a doctor and an EMT in the class. The instructor said that if you had a gunshot injury on the range to call it in as an accidental shooting injury during a training event. Otherwise, the responding medical personnel will wait for LE to report that the scene is secure before entering the area. The doctor and EMT both agreed, and reinforced that if you just call it in as a shooting that they will assume it is an "active shooter" incident until LE clears the scene, placing unwanted delay between the call and needed medical attention.
 

WalkingWolf

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During my Range Safety Officer training, we had a doctor and an EMT in the class. The instructor said that if you had a gunshot injury on the range to call it in as an accidental shooting injury during a training event. Otherwise, the responding medical personnel will wait for LE to report that the scene is secure before entering the area. The doctor and EMT both agreed, and reinforced that if you just call it in as a shooting that they will assume it is an "active shooter" incident until LE clears the scene, placing unwanted delay between the call and needed medical attention.

I never mentioned calling it in as a shooting, active or negligent. EMTs would not know that there is a shooting until they discover gunshots. For that they have to be on the scene doing a examination. Unlike TV myths gunshots wounds are not obvious blocks away.

Often EMTs got to the scene before I did, very often, and I never saw them hold back care. During a active shooting of course. Or in some cases the police force EMTs to hold back, as in the case where they were the shooters. Naturally under a active shooting they are going to hold back. Duuhhhhhhhhhh!

I have been transported by ambulance several times, and once by med vac. All times I was armed and a gun was clearly on my person. All done without the police being there, or EMTs running away screaming like little girls.
 

solus

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During my Range Safety Officer training, we had a doctor and an EMT in the class. The instructor said that if you had a gunshot injury on the range to call it in as an accidental shooting injury during a training event. Otherwise, the responding medical personnel will wait for LE to report that the scene is secure before entering the area. The doctor and EMT both agreed, and reinforced that if you just call it in as a shooting that they will assume it is an "active shooter" incident until LE clears the scene, placing unwanted delay between the call and needed medical attention.

glad your CRSO went outside the scope of his established and mandated lesson plan to provide extraneous and not validated information. I would now worry about the other material you received in class as being viable...

might also wish to avail yourself to the on line RSO course to assure you were properly trained...just saying!!

might wish to report your CRSO to the NRA's training dept as not following prescribed training policies.

IPSE
 

Primus

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glad your CRSO went outside the scope of his established and mandated lesson plan to provide extraneous and not validated information. I would now worry about the other material you received in class as being viable...

might also wish to avail yourself to the on line RSO course to assure you were properly trained...just saying!!

might wish to report your CRSO to the NRA's training dept as not following prescribed training policies.

IPSE

Actually received the same instruction in 3 out of 5 classes/instructor classes I've taken.

NRA instructors are clear (good ones) teach the mandated stuff first then you can add on real life experience or opinions. That report it as accidental shooting is pretty accurate and seems like solid advice

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
 

WalkingWolf

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Actually received the same instruction in 3 out of 5 classes/instructor classes I've taken.

NRA instructors are clear (good ones) teach the mandated stuff first then you can add on real life experience or opinions. That report it as accidental shooting is pretty accurate and seems like solid advice

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

NRA instructs at the Mass Police Academy? Could you provide a cite for that?
 

solus

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here nc
Actually received the same instruction in 3 out of 5 classes/instructor classes I've taken.

NRA instructors are clear (good ones) teach the mandated stuff first then you can add on real life experience or opinions. That report it as accidental shooting is pretty accurate and seems like solid advice

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

truly??

the NRA instructors can 'add on real life experiences or OPINIONS' type material during NRA courses to their students...

do you have a specific cite from the Training Counselor or Instructor or BIT manuals to quantify this piece of unmitigated BS your spewing??

and you have the audacity to call your instructor(s) good...

and why didn't the other two out of your five not meet your classification of good...cuz they stuck to the lesson plans as mandated?



ipse
 
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Primus

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truly??

the NRA instructors can 'add on real life experiences or OPINIONS' type material during NRA courses to their students...

do you have a specific cite from the Training Counselor or Instructor or BIT manuals to quantify this piece of unmitigated BS your spewing??

and you have the audacity to call your instructor(s) good...

and why didn't the other two out of your five not meet your classification of good...cuz they stuck to the lesson plans as mandated?



ipse

Did you see the part where I said teach the lesson plan first? No? Check again.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
 

HPmatt

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Aug 18, 2013
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Dallas
I would call for a ambulance for myself, let the ambulance personnel notify the police. Once in their care I would refuse to talk to them. They will take over from there, there job is to care for me, and should only be allowed to talk to me with doctors permission. The hospital's job is to care for the patient, not assist police. This is why LEOs should not serve as EMTs, it is a conflict of interest.

Our town has cross-trained Firemen/EMTs and procedure is to dispatch police to any ambulance calls also. Typically the cruisers are closer than the central dispatched EMTs.
 

WalkingWolf

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North Carolina
Our town has cross-trained Firemen/EMTs and procedure is to dispatch police to any ambulance calls also. Typically the cruisers are closer than the central dispatched EMTs.

So far here no police have ever been dispatched or showed up on any of my ambulance rides. I had a heart attack in a Pittsboro Food Lion in the bathroom. I was found unconscious by a store employee, and he called the paramedics. I was openly wearing a gun, the Pittsboro police station was is across the street, no police. That was in 2003. I have had two more heart attacks since then. The only time I had police show up was in a Georgia hospital when I had a allergic reaction to eating a mango. I swelled up so bad the triage nurse called the police thinking I was a victim. As soon as they showed up I told them they were not needed, they left.

I would not trust any EMT with my health that his fulltime job was not being a paramedic. It just is not professional not to mention a conflict of interest. I wonder how many criminals have died under their care. Seems it would be awful easy for overzealous cops to be a tad slow, or make mistakes thinking they would dish out justice.

That is the good thing here, as far as I know we do not have police responding to ambulance calls, and the EMTs are EMTS. Should it ever come up, I will refuse their service and request a Moore County ambulance in their place.
 

solus

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Did you see the part where I said teach the lesson plan first? No? Check again.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

backing up to your post which i quoted in my post: yesterday, 1055 (3 Feb) Primis quote:

Actually received the same instruction in 3 out of 5 classes/instructor classes I've taken.

NRA instructors are clear (good ones) teach the mandated stuff first then you can add on real life experience or opinions. That report it as accidental shooting is pretty accurate and seems like solid advice

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk unquote.

doing a word search on the term lesson plan in your post(s)...nope got zero hits!!

i'm sorry where did you mention the term lesson plan that i missed, overlooked, failed to see?

glad i checked again as i would hate to have missed that important tidbit of terminology.

you were saying...
ipse
 

solus

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here nc
it is a shame the emergency personnel in this state are not given the appropriate level of care responsibilities other states allow.

the term EMT in this state does not equate to the same as others i have frequented as most within the state are not trained as EMT-paramedics but rather EMT- Basic or Intermediate levels (EMT-1 is the national category).

not saying this is a bad thing but the level of training to those responding could leave a bit to be desired.

ipse
 

JustaShooter

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NE Ohio
So on the one hand you say:
ww...a good friend who i trust and who runs EMT for local EMS says if they walk in and find a gunshot victim, w/o the police there they will immediately leave w/o rendering aide and drive a distance away until the scene is secure and protected by police.

i am unable to verify if this is standard policy but an working on it...will keep you apprised.

ipse

To which I reply in essential agreement even though the details vary slightly, then you post:

glad your CRSO went outside the scope of his established and mandated lesson plan to provide extraneous and not validated information. I would now worry about the other material you received in class as being viable...

might also wish to avail yourself to the on line RSO course to assure you were properly trained...just saying!!

might wish to report your CRSO to the NRA's training dept as not following prescribed training policies.

IPSE

Wow, just... wow. :uhoh: Not sure what I did or said that set you off, but relax man - take a chill pill (or adjust your medication by other means, as appropriate or desired).

First, the information wasn't extraneous, it directly related to the topic at hand, and was validated by other members in the class who are familiar with SOP in such situations.
Second, I had reviewed the RSO course materials before the class and since we covered the required material in detail in class I can assure you the training was done properly.
Third, I don't see any need to report the CRSO that conducted the training since the prescribed training was done completely and well.
Finally, have a dancing banana for no reason. :banana:
 

solus

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here nc
snip...

First, the information wasn't extraneous, it directly related to the topic at hand, and was validated by other members in the class who are familiar with SOP in such situations.
Second, I had reviewed the RSO course materials before the class and since we covered the required material in detail in class I can assure you the training was done properly.
Third, I don't see any need to report the CRSO that conducted the training since the prescribed training was done completely and well.
Finally, have a dancing banana for no reason. :banana:

so you're telling me because someone else in the class validates something it makes it ok.

so you are sitting in a formal classroom setting, not on break BS'g, w/a doctor, sorry did you mention if the doc was an ER clinician or perhaps ENT or better yet a peds doc as all doc's know the same thing with the same experience level since they all have MD after their name; and the emt, did you say they were a basic or intermediate or full blown paramedic as they also have the same training and experience level; and they both said 'sure what the CRSO said as instruction sounds good to us.

now you have differing levels of competence which other students, like you did, take it as gospel cuz the alleged doc and emt agrees with the CRSO's statements of how the world works.

therefore, a newly graduated RSO from your class then gets in a real world situation and applies what the good CRSO said was gospel, as agreed by MD and EMT, and things go down hill in a hand basket, and ppl are hurt or property damaged. RSO is blamed and held accountable. Said RSO states... well the CRSO instructed me on this in class, which was agreed by MD and EMT. CRSO is hauled in front of judicial proceedings as defense witness...sure i said that cuz i thought it was useful information. NRA training department hauled into the mess for which ever side you want to put them on...and their comment will be... 'sorry the material presented by the CRSO was not in our lesson plan;

with a minimal leap of faith guess who has now taken full responsibility...the RSO as well as the CRSO. of course the organization is also to blame since the RSO is associated there.

oh wait, you looked over the RSO material first...did you see the extraneous material the CRSO covered mentioned in the text?

so if you happen to be sitting with a bunch of LEs and they state their shooting range and verbal practices and verbal protocols are ok, which happens to go against established norms, then all is well in the world? how would that work if you were the RSO on their range?

so when you state you are a trained NRA RSO, it means the same level of training throughout the community...it does not mean your CRSO added nor deleted material from the prescribed course material, cuz the CRSO thought it was germane to their way of thinking.

sorry, i personally would not like to defend myself in a judicial situation and discover my training did not follow prescribed course material. reviewing the student's text does not show you what the CRSO is supposed to cover...sorry.

you can defend your banana but your CRSO did you and your fellow classmates an injustice.

and your condescending attitude is not appreciated

ipse
 
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MNMGoneShooting

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Feb 12, 2012
Messages
144
Location
King George, VA
ww...a good friend who i trust and who runs EMT for local EMS says if they walk in and find a gunshot victim, w/o the police there they will immediately leave w/o rendering aide and drive a distance away until the scene is secure and protected by police.

i am unable to verify if this is standard policy but an working on it...will keep you apprised.

ipse

They might but they will still be on the scene when police arrive, and attend to the injured, being me. Besides they will not know if they have a gunshot victim until they examine them. Unless it is a head shot.

This is why I would not offer information in anyway that there was, is, or was part of a shooting. As far as the EMTs know they have a sick patient. AFA me being armed, I have already been in that situation, and it did not phase the EMTs a bit. My wife took control of the firearm, but once at the hospital the nurses secured the gun. It was returned to me as soon as I was discharged.

The only thing that EMTs could testify to or tell police is they found a gunshot victim. I would not even tell the EMTs I discharged a firearm.

You(general you) are not required by law to give up any information to anybody. Police or EMTs, or even hospital. It is only a crime if you attempt to cover up evidence, or lie to police. And unless things have changed once you are under a doctors care the doctor cannot release anything you tell them without your permission.

As part of our training, scene safety is number one for an EMT. If it's a shooting call, we will not go on the scene without law enforcement presence. If we determine its a shooting after the fact, it becomes a judgement call or a conversation with dispatch for further direction. While you are not supposed to abandon a patient once care administration begins, scene safety trumps that.
 
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WalkingWolf

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As part of our training, scene safety is number one for an EMT. If it's a shooting call, we will not go on the scene without law enforcement presence. If we determine its a shooting after the fact, it becomes a judgement call or a conversation with dispatch for further direction. While you are not supposed to abandon a patient once care administration begins, scene safety trumps that.

AND I repeat AGAIN, I will not implicate myself by reporting a shooting or being involved in one. Whatever is said on a 911 call WILL be played in court and possibly used against you. If there are witnesses I have no problem with THEM reporting a shooting. I will let my lawyer speak for me, and once in medical care, the doctor will intercede as it is their job.

My having a heart problem is evident by the pacemaker/defibrillator clearly obvious on my chest, on a medical ID card. If I am refused service because I will not talk to police I know my wife will be rich after I am gone.

Plus I do not have to stay at the immediate scene of the incident. I am lawfully allowed to retreat to a safe distance myself. Which I would do.
 
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MNMGoneShooting

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AND I repeat AGAIN, I will not implicate myself by reporting a shooting or being involved in one. Whatever is said on a 911 call WILL be played in court and possibly used against you. If there are witnesses I have no problem with THEM reporting a shooting. I will let my lawyer speak for me, and once in medical care, the doctor will intercede as it is their job.

My having a heart problem is evident by the pacemaker/defibrillator clearly obvious on my chest, on a medical ID card. If I am refused service because I will not talk to police I know my wife will be rich after I am gone.

Plus I do not have to stay at the immediate scene of the incident. I am lawfully allowed to retreat to a safe distance myself. Which I would do.

Don't yell at me grumpy. I'm just saying what EMTs do to answer his cite as a former EMT.

Have fun with your lawsuit.
 

JustaShooter

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Jul 26, 2013
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NE Ohio
<snip rant> your CRSO did you and your fellow classmates an injustice.

and your condescending attitude is not appreciated

Sorry about whatever I said that set you off man. Clearly we are of a completely different opinion about the whole thing. Have a good day. Buh-bye.
 
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