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Terry stops in IA

hhofent

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What is the legality of terry stops in iowa for OC? And how about if stopped for speeding or some other minor traffic infraction?

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davidmcbeth

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Last edited:

hhofent

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So a terry stop can be used to search your vehicle in a traffic stop, but open carrying alone doesn't justify a terry stop.
Is that right?

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Primus

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So a terry stop can be used to search your vehicle in a traffic stop, but open carrying alone doesn't justify a terry stop.
Is that right?

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Terry stop is just a form of "encounter".

Motor vehicle stuff is different as noted by someone else. Yes they still need RAS to stop your vehicle (brake like out). But as far as pat frisking the vehicles, exit orders, searching the vehicle, what parts they search, etc. Are a whole separate can of worms. Falls under the "motor vehicle exception" since its been deemed that vehicles are subject to warrants like houses are since they are "mobile in nature" or something to that effect.

This isn't blanket stuff and some minute things vary from state to state depending on their state supreme court and case law.



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OC for ME

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Terry stop is just a form of "encounter".

Motor vehicle stuff is different as noted by someone else. Yes they still need RAS to stop your vehicle (brake like out). But as far as pat frisking the vehicles, exit orders, searching the vehicle, what parts they search, etc. Are a whole separate can of worms. Falls under the "motor vehicle exception" since its been deemed that vehicles are subject to warrants like houses are since they are "mobile in nature" or something to that effect.

This isn't blanket stuff and some minute things vary from state to state depending on their state supreme court and case law.

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A Terry Stop is not "just another form of encounter", it is a "stop and frisk."
 

Primus

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A Terry Stop is not "just another form of encounter", it is a "stop and frisk."

Correct. Hence "form" or if you like "level". Its a more intrusive/invasive form of encounter. Your still talking to the person or "encountering them". Its just a level up in invasiveness and correspondingly needs more reason to do so.

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hhofent

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I guess what I'm looking for is this:

If I were walking down the street, minding my own business, is OC alone RAS to perform a terry stop?

And the same if I was pulled over in a car, for a reason; speeding, busted taillight, then how does a terry stop come into play?

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OC for ME

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I guess what I'm looking for is this:

If I were walking down the street, minding my own business, is OC alone RAS to perform a terry stop?

And the same if I was pulled over in a car, for a reason; speeding, busted taillight, then how does a terry stop come into play?

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The traffic stop is more likely a department policy/cop personal preference thing. In Missouri a cop can arrest, without a warrant, for a busted tail light.

OCing? Well, if you think the only thing the cop is "Terry Stopping" you for is your OC'd firearm then I would be sure that I'm recording and not speaking one word. That cop will have to articulate his RAS in front of a judge.
 

Primus

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I guess what I'm looking for is this:

If I were walking down the street, minding my own business, is OC alone RAS to perform a terry stop?

And the same if I was pulled over in a car, for a reason; speeding, busted taillight, then how does a terry stop come into play?

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I can't tell you how exactly it would occur in IA because I'm not familiar with their laws on OC or if that constitutes enough to engage you in a terry stop. Some states I think do allow that (been discussed on here recently) and other states it does not.

But again.... a Terry stop is different then a car stop. If your stopped and patted down on the sidewalk then its based in part on the terry case. If your stopped for a tail light out and there is "furitive movements" then you may be requested to exit the vehicle and patted down along with the immediate area that you were sitting. That's pat frisking the car. But this isn't from Terry because that was guys on foot casing a joint to rob.

Now to OC aspect, which obviously your looking for, I honestly don't know case law from IA that says they can order you out of the vehicle because your armed. I would start with the state statutes and check to see if its a must notify state and go from there.

But again.... different ball games. Motor vehicle stuff can get pretty complicated really quick. Terry stops are pretty straight forward. Either you have to stop them or you don't. You usually know that BEFORE you stop them. With a car stop you have no idea what you have other then a tail light out. So your actions determine where and how far a car stop goes. From movements to words etc. Etc.

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OC for ME

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Correct. Hence "form" or if you like "level". Its a more intrusive/invasive form of encounter. Your still talking to the person or "encountering them". Its just a level up in invasiveness and correspondingly needs more reason to do so.

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If I were to experience a Terry Stop, the only thing the cop(s) will get from me is silent compliance. It is hoped that my recording device will remain operable.
 

Grapeshot

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hhofent

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I know Iowa is not a "duty to inform" state.
The reason I'm asking is that in my ccw class, the instructor said he always tells the LEO right away that he is carrying during a traffic stop, but he mentioned an associate of his, a lawyer, will never tell a LEO, and if asked, he will ask the LEO if it pertains to this stop, kind of avoiding the question. He said the reason is if the LEO knows you have a ccw/are carrying, he can invoke the terry clause and can cuff you/"secure" your guns.

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Primus

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I know Iowa is not a "duty to inform" state.
The reason I'm asking is that in my ccw class, the instructor said he always tells the LEO right away that he is carrying during a traffic stop, but he mentioned an associate of his, a lawyer, will never tell a LEO, and if asked, he will ask the LEO if it pertains to this stop, kind of avoiding the question. He said the reason is if the LEO knows you have a ccw/are carrying, he can invoke the terry clause and can cuff you/"secure" your guns.

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Sounds like he's conflating exit orders with terry stops. Again, not versed with IA law but I doubt (that's opinion you have to check IA case law) that having a firearm and ccw is enough for an automatic exit order and especially cuffing. That's a bit of a stretch.

That kind of easy to answer from your instructor. He said he always notifies. So how many times has he been given exit orders and cuffed after he notified?

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Grapeshot

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I know Iowa is not a "duty to inform" state.
The reason I'm asking is that in my ccw class, the instructor said he always tells the LEO right away that he is carrying during a traffic stop, but he mentioned an associate of his, a lawyer, will never tell a LEO, and if asked, he will ask the LEO if it pertains to this stop, kind of avoiding the question. He said the reason is if the LEO knows you have a ccw/are carrying, he can invoke the terry clause and can cuff you/"secure" your guns.

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That is the ol' officer safety issue. Don't think you'll get cuffed, but you might get temporarily disarmed.

Candidly, I have gone both ways depending on the circumstances/reason I was stopped.

Burned out break light or minor speeding - likely to inform w/o use of the word "gun." No ticket either.

Sobriety check point - No sir, I don't drink. Am I free to go?
I detest these fishing stops late at night when I am tired and on my way home from a meeting.

Did have fun at one such though. I had a half dozen guns in the truck + my med bag
 

amaixner

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I guess what I'm looking for is this:
If I were walking down the street, minding my own business, is OC alone RAS to perform a terry stop?

In an incorporated area (town/city): yes
Outside of an incorporated area: no
OC of a handgun outside of an incorporated area does not require a permit in Iowa.
 

Grapeshot

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In an incorporated area (town/city): yes
Outside of an incorporated area: no
OC of a handgun outside of an incorporated area does not require a permit in Iowa.

Totally disagree with the concept that OC of a handgun provides RAS, even though a permit might be required.
Please provide a cite to clear this up.

Can a LEO legitimately make a traffic stop just because you are driving (no infraction of the law) to see if you have a license?

Can a doctor be stopped because he is carrying a medical bag to see if he is licensed to practice?
 

Tucker6900

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Iowa Code 724.5.

Its an arguable point on open vs concealed. 724.5 says concealed, while 724.4.i states you must show a permit. I believe a man was just arrested in des moines for not showing a permit. I dont knkw what the outcome was.

I have thrown around the idea of not carrying my permit while open carrying, as we need caselaw to tell us for sure.

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Grapeshot

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724.4 CARRYING WEAPONS.
1. Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person who goes armed with a dangerous weapon concealed on or about the person,
or who, within the limits of any city, goes armed with a pistol or revolver, or any loaded firearm of any kind, whether concealed or not, or who knowingly carries or transports in a vehicle a pistol or revolver, commits an aggravated misdemeanor.

4. Subsections 1 through 3 do not apply to any of the following:

i. A person who has in the person's possession and who displays to a peace officer on demand a valid permit to carry weapons which has been issued to the person, and whose conduct is within the limits of that permit. A person shall not be convicted of a violation of this section if the person produces at the person's trial a permit to carry weapons which was valid at the time of the alleged offense and which would have brought the person's conduct within this exception if the permit had been produced at the time of the alleged offense.


724.5 DUTY TO CARRY PERMIT TO CARRY WEAPONS.
A person armed with a revolver, pistol, or pocket billy concealed upon the person shall have in the person's immediate possession the
permit provided for in section 724.4, subsection 4, paragraph "i", and shall produce the permit for inspection at the request of a peace officer.
Failure to so produce a permit is a simple misdemeanor.

*********************************************

IMHO - 724.4 (4)(i) is a get out of jail {strike]free[/strike] cheaper card - you can beat the charge, but not the ride.

An OC gun is not "concealed upon the person" re 724.5

It would seem that you have no requirement to produce a permit when OCing, IF you have a permit - strange that :confused:

General District Courts do not establish case law as a rule. Only at the appellate level does this occur.
 

Darkshadow62988

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Iowa
724.4 CARRYING WEAPONS.
General District Courts do not establish case law as a rule. Only at the appellate level does this occur.

Can you explain what you mean by this? I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding you or just disagreeing with you because that's an over simplified statement.
 
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