Target Encounter, Everett, Washington

[Adam H]

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Pistol Pete Utah wrote:

acmariner99 wrote:

Man: Hey, what would you do if I did this (tries to grab the grip)
Me: (put a firm grip on the handle, yanks away and steps back and exclaim loud enough to bring to attention that a serious situation is developing): "Hey get your hand off my gun"

It is hard to say what I would do, I would not have drawn my firearm. After that I would have pulled out my Pepper spray told him make another move and I will spray you.

"Don't Spray me Bro"

I don't think the OP drew his firearm. Unless I'm mistaken, he said when the instigator tried to grab his gun, he got a firm grip on the gun in order to prevent it from being taken.

 

[MKIIIRobby]

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Wow! Great story! Very very well taken care of!

 

[frommycolddeadhands]

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Good story. +1 for remaining calm in a very irritating situation. I'm sorta suprised that one of the employees didn't come over and remove the guy when he started yelling "hes got a gun", but at least they were smart enough to see who the agressor was.

And I'll echo a few other folks on here and say that if the guy was reaching for my gun there is a high probability that he would have gotten an elbow into the solar plexus for his effort.

Great job, stay safe.

 

[Kirbinator]

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Rasher wrote:

When he tried to "GRAB" your sidearm, a nice dose of pepper spray would have been IMHO warrented.

Or let him get it, and pull your backup gun.

Throw a knife on the floor. "Pick it up. Pick it up, boy."

 

[ecocks]

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This story also didn't seem "right" to me as I read through it.

It is what it is. A simple story without substantiation and only the teller's credibility as to whether it happened.

 

[Ironbar]

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I also find it rather interesting (and telling) that the OP seems to have vanished since the initial telling of this tall tale.

I still call total B.S. on this story.

 

[gogodawgs]

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Ironbar wrote:

I also find it rather interesting (and telling) that the OP seems to have vanished since the initial telling of this tall tale.

I still call total B.S. on this story.

I had breakfast with the OP and believe the story to be true. He is a quiet kid and very reserved.

 

[eye95]

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He's over in the WA forum. He hasn't disappeared.

It's not like he's a one-post wonder.

 

[acmariner99]

Its been a while since this happened

I had a chance to discuss this event in great detail with several people from the WA forum after the event happened. I got a tremendous amount of feedback, and once I was satisfied with the responses I got I dropped the issue and kept everything for future reference. Since then I have gotten a voice recorder and a new OC holster that retains the weapon better. (a Galco M7X Matrix Belt Holster from LA police gear), and have worked on my retention tactics. I don't have the physical muscle memory to respond by kicking him, or throwing him off me -- I've picked up a couple of tricks from a Marine friend since then too -- it aint bs, I just don't see a need to go over it in any further detail. Carry On!

 

[Wolfebane]

I always (ok, when I remember) use my voice recorder when I open carry in public. Remember to make sure the laws allow that in your state. A very good and FREE!!!! voice recorder program for cell phones/pda's with Windows Mobile is called "Keep Recording" It works very well, I dont even bother carrying my digital voice recorder anymore. Here is a link to it:

http://www.axyzmobile.com/products/keep-recordin

Would anyone happen to know if its legal to record someone without their knowledge during an encounter like this in Washington State? Or direct me to the information. Reading stories like this makes me want to get a voice recorder to carry around.

 

[Jack House]

Just look up your state's wiretap laws.


It appears that Washington is a two party consent state.

http://www.citmedialaw.org/legal-guide/washington/washington-recording-law

 

[Wolfebane]

Just look up your state's wiretap laws.


It appears that Washington is a two party consent state.

http://www.citmedialaw.org/legal-guide/washington/washington-recording-law

Ok so here's my take on it for Washington State. I encounter someone who is belligerent or aggressive towards me carrying. I then proceed to pull out my recorder (from my non gun side chest pocket where I plan to carry it) and then show them that I'm turning it on and then verbally tell them I'm turning it on.

Now if the person does not actually say "do not record me" or some specific variation there of, the implication is that they give consent by continuing their confrontation - though IANAL.

That's how I see it, what do other people think?

 

[eye95]

IANAL, but how about recording the following words on your recorder.

"I have turned my recorder on to record myself and will be walking away from you so as not to record you without your consent. If you continue to follow me, with the full knowledge that you will be recorded, then you are making a conscious and recorded choice to be recorded--thereby giving tacit consent."

Then, say nothing more and walk away. If he tries to follow you, take a complicated enough route to make it clear that you are trying to get away and that he is trying to stay with you and your recorder.

 

[OlGutshotWilly]

Washington Recording Law

Note: This page covers information specific to Washington. For general information concerning the use of recording devices see the Recording Phone Calls, Conversations, Meetings and Hearings section of this guide.

Washington Wiretapping Law

Washington's wiretapping law is a "two-party consent" law. Washington makes it a crime to intercept or record a private telephone call, in-person conversation, or electronic communication unless all parties to the communication consent. See Wash. Rev. Code § 9.73.030(1). Whether a conversation or other communications is "private" depends on a number of case-specific factors, such as the subjective intention of the parties, the reasonableness of their expectation that the conversation would be private, the location of the conversation, and whether third parties were present. State v. Townsend, 57 P.3d 255, 259 (Wash. 2002). You should always get the consent of all parties before recording any conversation that common sense tells you is private.

This has to do with conversations that are expected to be private. You have to look at case law to get the full story. This encounter was held in public, where no expectation of privacy would seem to be present since he was fairly vocal and many people were listening.



Go here for specific case law on recording LEO's in WA state:

http://forum.nwcdl.org/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;id=27

Generally there is no expectation of privacy when dealing with LEO's in public in their official capacity.

Just search the WA threads/forum and you will find lots of info.

As usual: IANAL

 

[Deleted_User]

I can't not say anything.

OP: +1,000,000 You are WAY calmer than I am. I'd have had him on the ground until security arrived. Martial Arts training would've taken over if he grabbed my gun. You handled yourself most honourably and above and beyond! Well done!

I'm amazed such a situation would happen, but anything is possible these days. To be ready for something like that, you did awesome! Great job

 

[Jack House]

I can't remember where, but one state ruled that you're not allowed to record officers acting in their official capacity without their permission under the guise of their wiretap laws which was the same as Washington's. Something to consider before recording a confrontation in a two party state. So yeah, check case law before you decide that "Oh, I'm in public, there's no reasonable expectation of privacy here" because some dumbass courts decided that yeah, there is, atleast where police misconduct is involved.

 

[Average Dad]

Bravo Welll Handled.

Nice job on staying calm when confronted with terminal lunacy.

 

[eye95]

This was an excellent example of how to behave while carrying. I was able to point to it in another thread as exemplary.

 

[sg_pilot]

Good Job!

Just so that myself and the readers can get a better image of how exactly this thing looked in our heads:

Did he seem like a political extremist?
How old did the man look?
What was he wearing?
Did he seem like he was the kind of guy who would have done the same to a Law Enforcement Officer?

I also would like to add a few things to do if a situation like this ever presented itself again, god forbid. In Utah, him grabbing for your gun might have been considered aggravated assault I believe, which may constitute a "forcible felony" in which lethal force is justifiable, but don't quote me on that.

Being that this douche saw the need for whatever reason, to become disorderly, given a similar set of circumstances I may have drawn and told him to get on the ground while I called 911. If I had been in your situation (which I wasn't, I know), my years of self-defense experience would have kicked into play and I would have done this (assuming you are right-handed): Grab your gun firmly with your right hand and keep it in the holster after he put his hand on it and try to keep his hand on the gun (doesn't sound appealing, but it's for body control), take your left forearm up against his neck and push with all your strength to the floor, shelves or whatever's most convenient, put your knee to his chest or neck, and call 911. I know not everyone has the desire to try this in a scenario like this, but if you're carrying then you're responsible and you need to know how to handle things like this. Because police train for these things in the academy, it's not a bad idea for Open Carriers to learn some basics as well.

I do understand that because of the scene he was causing you didn't want to do anything out of order, but this is just my take.

I commend you on your actions and would like to add a few things to the thread. First, I do not ever recommend carrying pepper spray, or a Taser in addition to your firearm. If you were put in a situation where you had pepper spray and/or a Taser on your person, and you used your firearm instead of using either of your pepper spray/Taser, a jury would almost certainly hang you for not having used either of those instead (Even if use of lethal force had been justified).

 

[4angrybadgers]

I commend you on your actions and would like to add a few things to the thread. First, I do not ever recommend carrying pepper spray, or a Taser in addition to your firearm. If you were put in a situation where you had pepper spray and/or a Taser on your person, and you used your firearm instead of using either of your pepper spray/Taser, a jury would almost certainly hang you for not having used either of those instead (Even if use of lethal force had been justified).

Got a basis for that claim? In some (most?) states' self-defense laws, lethal force is justified under a specified set of circumstances (threat to life or limb, etc.), regardless of what else you had hanging on your belt. I've never heard of someone who legally used deadly force to defend himself and was strung up because he had spray/a Taser on his belt.