Supreme Court violating law when issuing permits regarding renewals

[Mike]

Typewriter or no typewriter, the online records would show one expiration date, and the actual paper permit would show something different.

The online system can not be overridden to show the correct expiration date.

If stopped on July 1, 2017 by a cop, I would still be legal. But the system would show I had expired on 5-09-2017 and the cop would probably arrest me.

arrest? for a misdemeanor? that would be illegal under virginia law - issue a summons maybe, but even then, the permit is the proof, not some online nuttery.

 

[architect]

Typewriter or no typewriter, the online records would show one expiration date, and the actual paper permit would show something different.

OK, so is the permit the piece of paper, or the computer record? If the former, why does the latter have status? If the latter, why do you have to carry the former?

 

[half_life1052]

The court dockets are kept in the state computer system now. Even a concealed weapon renewal has a case number assigned to it and is part of the court docket. The date the judge signs the renewal is entered into the docket system (in my case 5-09-2012), then the software is giving people a 5 year permit from the date the judge signed it. This is the point, the clerk is not able to override the system and issue the permit with the correct expiration date. At least not until the programmers make the software match the law.

In the IT world, we have a little saying. " A feature is a bug with seniority".

 

[TFred]

OK, so is the permit the piece of paper, or the computer record? If the former, why does the latter have status? If the latter, why do you have to carry the former?

A permit is an intangible concept, a status of having been granted a permission to do something. Both the paper and the computer records are merely documentation of the permit.

Sounds to me like someone needs to write the Virginia Supreme Court and tell them to get off their hineys and fix this problem.

TFred

 

[Sangre]

arrest? for a misdemeanor? that would be illegal under virginia law - issue a summons maybe, but even then, the permit is the proof, not some online nuttery.

I have a close friend who got into a minor traffic accident in Richmond, she was hit by another friend while she was a minor. Somebody called the police who showed up, and for some reason ran her license. In the DMV system, her license showed as suspended. She was told she was being arrested for driving on a suspended license, a misdemeanor, then loaded up into a paddywagon after waiting about an hour then driven around for a few more hours in the blistering heat while they picked up people charged with much more serious offenses before being taken to the jail. She was released to her parents and had the charges dropped once they where able to goto the DMV and have them certify that her license should not have been suspended in court.

She ended up not having any charges stick, but had to spend time arrested and in jail, and possibly worse hours at the DMV. I'm thinking it could be similar for the CHP.

 

[DocWalker]

I have a close friend who got into a minor traffic accident in Richmond, she was hit by another friend while she was a minor. Somebody called the police who showed up, and for some reason ran her license. In the DMV system, her license showed as suspended. She was told she was being arrested for driving on a suspended license, a misdemeanor, then loaded up into a paddywagon after waiting about an hour then driven around for a few more hours in the blistering heat while they picked up people charged with much more serious offenses before being taken to the jail. She was released to her parents and had the charges dropped once they where able to goto the DMV and have them certify that her license should not have been suspended in court.

She ended up not having any charges stick, but had to spend time arrested and in jail, and possibly worse hours at the DMV. I'm thinking it could be similar for the CHP.

Guilty until proven innocent....opps I have that wrong.

 

[peter nap]

I have a close friend who got into a minor traffic accident in Richmond, she was hit by another friend while she was a minor. Somebody called the police who showed up, and for some reason ran her license. In the DMV system, her license showed as suspended. She was told she was being arrested for driving on a suspended license, a misdemeanor, then loaded up into a paddywagon after waiting about an hour then driven around for a few more hours in the blistering heat while they picked up people charged with much more serious offenses before being taken to the jail. She was released to her parents and had the charges dropped once they where able to goto the DMV and have them certify that her license should not have been suspended in court.

She ended up not having any charges stick, but had to spend time arrested and in jail, and possibly worse hours at the DMV. I'm thinking it could be similar for the CHP.

Mike doesn't get out much.:lol:

 

[Sheriff]

..... and correct the records manually if necessary.....

No matter what I file, no matter what the judge rules on, and no matter what the judge orders...... there is no way to manually change the expiration date in the state's software until the bug is fixed. The expiration date comes up in a panel where you can not alter it. Once you enter the date the judge signed the renewal, the software spits out an expiration date that is five years down the road. Enter 6-13-2012 as the date the judge signs a renewal, and the system spits out 6-13-2017 as the new expiration date. If your current permit expires on 8-20-21012, the law says your new expiration date should be 8-20-2017...... but the system software has not been updated to know this.

In other words, the system software is written and programmed to add 5 years to the judge's date of signature, not 5 years to the date of the current expiration as the law provides if you submit your renewal 90 days prior to the expiration date, and no longer than 180 days prior to the current expiration date.

The clerk told me she was going to get the Supreme Court on the phone and get them started on fixing this problem. I just don't have the desire or energy to do anything about this problem myself. I just finished 13 years of my life in a courtroom, I need a break. Sounds to me like the state needs better IT people on the payroll. But... the law is 14 pages long if printed out on 8 1/2 x 11 paper. Still no excuse for IT overlooking something this important.

 

[grylnsmn]

No matter what I file, no matter what the judge rules on, and no matter what the judge orders...... there is no way to manually change the expiration date in the state's software until the bug is fixed. The expiration date comes up in a panel where you can not alter it. Once you enter the date the judge signed the renewal, the software spits out an expiration date that is five years down the road. Enter 6-13-2012 as the date the judge signs a renewal, and the system spits out 6-13-2017 as the new expiration date. If your current permit expires on 8-20-21012, the law says your new expiration date should be 8-20-2017...... but the system software has not been updated to know this.

In other words, the system software is written and programmed to add 5 years to the judge's date of signature, not 5 years to the date of the current expiration as the law provides if you submit your renewal 90 days prior to the expiration date, and no longer than 180 days prior to the current expiration date.

I'm sorry, but not even a government agency would design software like that.

What they probably did is create a separate field in the database to store the expiration date, and it automatically sets the value of that field when the record is created by adding 5 years to the date the judge signs the permit. However, once it is set in the database, there is no need to recalculate it over and over again. (It's more efficient to calculate the expiration date once and store that, rather than recalculate it every time you display the record.) That means that in order to correct it, the judge just needs to order whoever maintains that database to update the expiration date in that field.

Where I work, we deal with stuff like that every day (supporting a timekeeping system for the FAA). While the end user (in this case, the clerk) can't change certain fields that are displayed, the people who maintain the software (i.e. the DBA or system administrator) should be able to do so.

 

[peter nap]

No matter what I file, no matter what the judge rules on, and no matter what the judge orders...... there is no way to manually change the expiration date in the state's software until the bug is fixed. The expiration date comes up in a panel where you can not alter it. Once you enter the date the judge signed the renewal, the software spits out an expiration date that is five years down the road. Enter 6-13-2012 as the date the judge signs a renewal, and the system spits out 6-13-2017 as the new expiration date. If your current permit expires on 8-20-21012, the law says your new expiration date should be 8-20-2017...... but the system software has not been updated to know this.

In other words, the system software is written and programmed to add 5 years to the judge's date of signature, not 5 years to the date of the current expiration as the law provides if you submit your renewal 90 days prior to the expiration date, and no longer than 180 days prior to the current expiration date.

The clerk told me she was going to get the Supreme Court on the phone and get them started on fixing this problem. I just don't have the desire or energy to do anything about this problem myself. I just finished 13 years of my life in a courtroom, I need a break. Sounds to me like the state needs better IT people on the payroll. But... the law is 14 pages long if printed out on 8 1/2 x 11 paper. Still no excuse for IT overlooking something this important.

That's not true but the argument's getting old. Don't try to change anything. Someone else will though and you can cry in your beer!
That's about the end of my interest since THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE AN OC BOARD.

 

[Doogie]

Can I get a AMEN!

 

[Sheriff]

can i get a amen!

amen!!!!!

 

[half_life1052]

amen!!!!!

You know what they say . . .

Guns
Religion
Politics

Start a conversation about any two and the third will find it's way in eventually.:lol:

 

[paramedic70002]

OK, so is the permit the piece of paper, or the computer record? If the former, why does the latter have status? If the latter, why do you have to carry the former?

Interesting question, I wonder who in government should answer it.

That's not true but the argument's getting old. Don't try to change anything. Someone else will though and you can cry in your beer!
That's about the end of my interest since THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE AN OC BOARD.

The OP never told us if he OCs. Many OCers have CHPs. Certainly much bandwidth has been dedicated to CHPs here. Also I'm not aware of a dedicated VA CHP forum.

Perhaps OCDO should have a CHP subforum. Do we really want/need to ostracize members who have CHPs? Do we really want to pretend CHPs don't exist?

 

[peter nap]

The OP never told us if he OCs. Many OCers have CHPs. Certainly much bandwidth has been dedicated to CHPs here. Also I'm not aware of a dedicated VA CHP forum.

Go to Richmond guns if you want to see a dedicated (and hate OC) CHP forum but I've about had it anyway....talk about CHP's all you want. We can't discuss long guns and dedicated facebook OC sites spend more time talking about CHP's than anything else.

I'm not getting involved in them anymore.
But do me a favor and don't start complaining in the fall when concerned OC'ers do everything possible to stop the damned P4P laws like parking lots, Student Carry and paramedics.

I might find a good knitting site and see if they want to discuss building Rocket Stoves or lean to's

So Sheriff....go back to telling everyone how the computer system preempts State law!:banghead:

 

[doctork]

Had the same problem with Roanoke County

I had the same problem. They sent me my renewal CHP with the wrong date. I just sent an email to the County Clerk and explained the problem referencing the Va. State Police web site and they sent me the corrected CHP and a SASE to return the incorrect one back. Roanoke County may have some problems but they handled this ASAP.

 

[DrMark]

Last week I submitted my CHP renewal, within the 90-180 day window. I mentioned why I was submitting it then, pointing out that law. The clerk's office seemed to have no awareness of the law, so I'll certainly be checking out the date on the new permit.

Please let us know how it works out for you.

Apparently York County does it right. As the County that has Danny Diggs as our Sheriff, that's not surprising.

Got my renewal in the mail today (16 June) after renewing on 18 May. That's 29 days.

Renewal was $26.78, including credit card fees.

Old permit: Expires 4 Sep 2012

New permit: Issue Date 4 Sep 2012, Expired 3 Sep 2017


Still, I yearn and work for the day when these are obsolete... Constitutional Carry for the Win!

 

[peter nap]

Apparently York County does it right. As the County that has Danny Diggs as our Sheriff, that's not surprising.

Got my renewal in the mail today (16 June) after renewing on 18 May. That's 29 days.

Renewal was $26.78, including credit card fees.

Old permit: Expires 4 Sep 2012

New permit: Issue Date 4 Sep 2012, Expired 3 Sep 2017


Still, I yearn and work for the day when these are obsolete... Constitutional Carry for the Win!

I think adding Marks experience to others that have gotten their CHP's with correct dates, pretty much sounds an almighty AMEN and BS to the Clerk that said it couldn't be done!

Originally Posted by Sheriff

No matter what I file, no matter what the judge rules on, and no matter what the judge orders...... there is no way to manually change the expiration date in the state's software until the bug is fixed. The expiration date comes up in a panel where you can not alter it. Once you enter the date the judge signed the renewal, the software spits out an expiration date that is five years down the road. Enter 6-13-2012 as the date the judge signs a renewal, and the system spits out 6-13-2017 as the new expiration date. If your current permit expires on 8-20-21012, the law says your new expiration date should be 8-20-2017...... but the system software has not been updated to know this.

In other words, the system software is written and programmed to add 5 years to the judge's date of signature, not 5 years to the date of the current expiration as the law provides if you submit your renewal 90 days prior to the expiration date, and no longer than 180 days prior to the current expiration date.

The clerk told me she was going to get the Supreme Court on the phone and get them started on fixing this problem. I just don't have the desire or energy to do anything about this problem myself. I just finished 13 years of my life in a courtroom, I need a break. Sounds to me like the state needs better IT people on the payroll. But... the law is 14 pages long if printed out on 8 1/2 x 11 paper. Still no excuse for IT overlooking something this important.

That's not true but the argument's getting old. Don't try to change anything. Someone else will though and you can cry in your beer!
That's about the end of my interest since THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE AN OC BOARD.

 

[DocWalker]

Still, I yearn and work for the day when these are obsolete... Constitutional Carry for the Win!

The cities, counties, states, and goverment will fight it tooth and nail; they won't want to loose a revenue source.

I agree with you also we need to do away with them totally.

 

[The Wolfhound]

What Revenue?

When counties, like mine, require fingerprints (for the original) they have already burned my $50 (maximum allowed) and have nothing to show for it. If revenue was the issue they would be running from the fingerprint requirement. It is all about control. Hoops they set for us to discourage claiming our rights.