"stupid" oc move in missouri!!!!

[OC for ME]

In 2003, after ignoring the results of Proposition B, the Missouri General Assembly passed new laws to enable shall-issue permits.

Funny how times change.

 

[Redbaron007]

I hope, WalkingWolf, you have a better understanding of what we are talking about. This is not legal vs illegal; it's politics and politics in MO. Which I would wager have some similarities.

As mentioned earlier, take care of your lawn before coming to ours and pointing out the weeds. We know our weeds and are trying to eradicate/educate them.

 

[McX]

After checking to make sure he did not have any outstanding warrants, officers told the man he could return without the gun, or he would have to leave the theater.

Christian County Sheriff Joey Kyle said the man didn't do anything illegal.

"Missouri is a carry state, in others words, you can carry weapons in Missouri exposed, you can carry weapons concealed, if you have a conceal and carry permit. He said he just exercising his right to carry a firearm," said Sheriff Kyle.


we support you, but get the hell out?

 

[DocWalker]

After checking to make sure he did not have any outstanding warrants, officers told the man he could return without the gun, or he would have to leave the theater.

Christian County Sheriff Joey Kyle said the man didn't do anything illegal.

"Missouri is a carry state, in others words, you can carry weapons in Missouri exposed, you can carry weapons concealed, if you have a conceal and carry permit. He said he just exercising his right to carry a firearm," said Sheriff Kyle.


we support you, but get the hell out?

I would have asked the cop if he was going to sit next to me in the movie to protect me since he was taking away any defense I had. If not I would have said not a problem, I just need to get my refund first.

 

[McX]

good one Doc. the movie probably sucked anyway. hey cop, if your going to sit next to me, no unlawful detention or siezure of my popcorn har-har.

 

[LMTD]

Not the cops fault at any level.

The cops can/could not make that call, the property owner/his agent aka manager at time of issue had to make that call, the police simply relayed the information.

That is indeed how we want it too, never give the government power to control private property or they WILL control private property. If the owner wants "no guns" then gun owners should indeed have the courage to give him no guns as well as no money.

No one is comming on my property in a manner i do not see fit and I sure as heck do not support the government telling me I have to allow anyone on to it without regard for my personal opinion. We start doing that and we will be forever lost!

 

[DocWalker]

Not the cops fault at any level.

The cops can/could not make that call, the property owner/his agent aka manager at time of issue had to make that call, the police simply relayed the information.

That is indeed how we want it too, never give the government power to control private property or they WILL control private property. If the owner wants "no guns" then gun owners should indeed have the courage to give him no guns as well as no money.

No one is comming on my property in a manner i do not see fit and I sure as heck do not support the government telling me I have to allow anyone on to it without regard for my personal opinion. We start doing that and we will be forever lost!

Then they shouldn't have sold him the ticket. At the very least they should have given him a full refund an a appology. The theater not the cops.

 

[McX]

if they didnt want guns in the theater THEN POST IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Redbaron007]

Then they shouldn't have sold him the ticket. At the very least they should have given him a full refund an a appology. The theater not the cops.

With the crowd that was there, the ticket agent prolly couldn't see it. (My guess they will train their folks to be more perceptive.)

if they didnt want guns in the theater THEN POST IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So if i don't want you on my property with a firearm, I have to post it? I can't ask to leave if I don't have it posted? Interesting...

What he did was not illegal. What he did could and prolly have political repercussions, if the past is any predictor of the future.

 

[McX]

that may be a slightly different venue. your home is different than a place that is 'open' to the public. if you asked me to leave, i would comply. but i hope i would at least get a slice of pizza for comfort.

 

[LMTD]

that may be a slightly different venue. your home is different than a place that is 'open' to the public. if you asked me to leave, i would comply. but i hope i would at least get a slice of pizza for comfort.

The only difference is a commercial property with public access may not ask you to leave because of race, age, handicap, or sex, on private property without public access, you can indeed discriminate on all four of those as well. Any other reason is perfectly fine, even "blue shirts" and they could indeed ask the police to make contact with you and tell you to change shirts or leave, if you refused, they would give you a ride on criminal treaspass and that is exactly how it should be.


If you owned it, it would be YOUR theater, YOUR rules, and the customers would be YOUR guest. If at any time one of or all of the guest become unwelcome to YOU, then YOU should ABSOLUTELY be well within your RIGHTS to make them leave. ASk, tell, call cops to enforce your will should the guest refuse.

Take close note, if one DOES discriminate against say race, it is a CIVIL matter and the person discriminated against may sue for damages. INAL when you look for cases surrounding the fed discrimination "laws" you do not find criminal matters, you only find ciivil ones, in contrast, treaspass is indeed "criminal" if even only a 50 dollar fine.

 

[Jarhead1981]

Good Point

Just to play devils advocate,what did he do wrong? Should we all stop carrying our pistols in public because of the attack on CO?

A Mexican Immigrant has the right to grocery shop in the US. If a Mexican Immigrant ran into a store and shot 12 people to death, would that mean that every Mexican Immigrant should avoid grocery stores for some prescribed time to avoid hurting feelings/appearing to exercise poor judgement/etc? That would be capitulating to the ignorance of the masses. I think the Open Carrying(OC)theater patron should have should have
stood his ground and demanded an explanation while his Federal and State Constitutional rights were being negated solely upon someones personal
opinion.

As an aside, I am going to make another point. As I read this forum, I see it is inundated with abbreviations and acronyms. Not to be the grammar nanny but, good grammar dictates that before using an abbreviation or acronym, you should first use the entire title so that everyone can tell what you are talking about. I've read posts that have so many acronyms that I don't know what they are trying to say. We all make typos so when you are using only acronyms and you spell them wrong, what do we assume. In NC, a concealed weapons carry permit is officially abbreviated CCWP, not CHP, which I always think as the California Highway Patrol. What is a LEA? Is that an LEO on administrative leave or just a misspelling or something else. My point is: Rather than sound hip/cool, why not type out your entire thought so that everyone can for sure enjoy it and for those that have not figured it out yet, when one of your words is underlined in RED, there is a good chance that it isn't spelled right.
I welcome any and all criticisms, most importantly for the reason that open conversation and the quest for true and accurate information will avoid unfortunate instances whereby someone acted on erroneous information, better labeled conjecture or speculation. We're dealing with the possibility of people being arrested; what we publish should be factual. Thanks for listening

 

[Redbaron007]

that may be a slightly different venue. your home is different than a place that is 'open' to the public. if you asked me to leave, i would comply. but i hope i would at least get a slice of pizza for comfort.

True...however, the property owner still has his rights. I think LMTD sums it up pretty close below.

The only difference is a commercial property with public access may not ask you to leave because of race, age, handicap, or sex, on private property without public access, you can indeed discriminate on all four of those as well. Any other reason is perfectly fine, even "blue shirts" and they could indeed ask the police to make contact with you and tell you to change shirts or leave, if you refused, they would give you a ride on criminal treaspass and that is exactly how it should be.


If you owned it, it would be YOUR theater, YOUR rules, and the customers would be YOUR guest. If at any time one of or all of the guest become unwelcome to YOU, then YOU should ABSOLUTELY be well within your RIGHTS to make them leave. ASk, tell, call cops to enforce your will should the guest refuse.

Take close note, if one DOES discriminate against say race, it is a CIVIL matter and the person discriminated against may sue for damages. INAL when you look for cases surrounding the fed discrimination "laws" you do not find criminal matters, you only find ciivil ones, in contrast, treaspass is indeed "criminal" if even only a 50 dollar fine.

Thanks LMTD....Great summary!

 

[Redbaron007]

...snip...
As an aside, I am going to make another point. As I read this forum, I see it is inundated with abbreviations and acronyms. Not to be the grammar nanny but, good grammar dictates that before using an abbreviation or acronym, you should first use the entire title so that everyone can tell what you are talking about. I've read posts that have so many acronyms that I don't know what they are trying to say. We all make typos so when you are using only acronyms and you spell them wrong, what do we assume. In NC, a concealed weapons carry permit is officially abbreviated CCWP, not CHP, which I always think as the California Highway Patrol. What is a LEA? Is that an LEO on administrative leave or just a misspelling or something else. My point is: Rather than sound hip/cool, why not type out your entire thought so that everyone can for sure enjoy it and for those that have not figured it out yet, when one of your words is underlined in RED, there is a good chance that it isn't spelled right.
I welcome any and all criticisms, most importantly for the reason that open conversation and the quest for true and accurate information will avoid unfortunate instances whereby someone acted on erroneous information, better labeled conjecture or speculation. We're dealing with the possibility of people being arrested; what we publish should be factual. Thanks for listening

Geesh!!! One in every crowd....take it for what it's worth!

 

[LMTD]

As an aside, I am going to make another point.

We all make typos so when you are using only acronyms and you spell them wrong, what do we assume.

Is that an LEO on administrative leave or just a misspelling or something else.

Thanks for listening

I will give you a grin first, note, i ALWAYS love the irony of the grannndma police screwing the pooch on grammar while doing so, there for I am picking on you, but with HUMOR not insult.

So let me make a point ;P

First sentence... looks like a sentence/question combo thingy!!! the "What" is indeed converting to a question, where is your punctuating leet grammmmmar skilz!

Second sentence, whoooop der it is, whoops i done it again, we lost the question marky thingy!

FYI, I was indeed READING, not all of us have text to speech converters reading forums aloud to us.

As to your opinion prior to the grammar thing, WTF are you talking about? There has never been a racial element to this story or discussion, WTF are you trying to isert one for sir? If there is a Mexican immigrant (note the lack of capitolization, it is not a proper noun when tied to Mexican, it becomes an adjective in case you were wondering) who goes into a grocery store and starts blasting people, I can assure you, I would recommend that persons of Mexican as well as all other nationalities seriously consider the political reprocussions that are possible before open carrying into a grocery store here in MO.

 

[LMTD]

Oh and by the way...

Those feeling all warm and fuzzy about the idea of running out to watch batman OC'ing this weekend because the brilliant leaders from other states seek to argue, don't take MY word for it or gunners, get your butt to the state senate site and take a look around... want a preview?

The Senate Minute
Interim 2012
July 24, 2012 — Missouri senators are reacting to the shootings at a movie theater in Colorado. During the Second Regular Session of the 96th General Assembly, lawmakers passed Senate Bill 489, which fixes missing elements from last year’s House Bill 294. Both bills relate to the state’s concealed weapons law.

FYI so far, no bills have been entered that are gun control, but if you think the anti's are not frothing at the mouth on this one, your nuts.

 

[Boba Fett]

if they didnt want guns in the theater THEN POST IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But according to when I talked with them a few months ago they do want guns in their theater.

I just can't figure out what the heck is going on here. I was looking forward to OC'ing at that theater next time I go to a movie (since I rarely do), but now I'm not sure.

 

[SavageOne]

It was my understanding that LEOs could not act as an "agent" of a private property owner. Missouri State Statue 569.150 defines 2nd Degree Trespass as

Trespass in the second degree.
569.150. 1. A person commits the offense of trespass in the second degree if he enters unlawfully upon real property of another. This is an offense of absolute liability.

2. Trespass in the second degree is an infraction.

Section 569 further defines "Enter unlawfully or remain unlawfully" as (emphasis added)

(8) "Enter unlawfully or remain unlawfully", a person "enters unlawfully or remains unlawfully" in or upon premises when he is not licensed or privileged to do so. A person who, regardless of his purpose, enters or remains in or upon premises which are at the time open to the public does so with license and privilege unless he defies a lawful order not to enter or remain, personally communicated to him by the owner of such premises or by other authorized person. A license or privilege to enter or remain in a building which is only partly open to the public is not a license or privilege to enter or remain in that part of the building which is not open to the public.

It was my understanding that LEOs could not be "authorized" to act in lieu of a property owner or their legitimate agents(i.e. employees).

If I am correct then the the property owner or their legitimate agents must first make the request that a person leave, themselves. They may not simply call the police and ask them ask the person to leave, without asking the person first. Trespass only happens when and if a person is asked to leave by the owner(or agents of) and refuses. At that point an infraction has occurred and the police can take over.

I believe there was a very similar case in AZ a few years back(as was chronicled on OCDO) and the OCer received a cash settlement from the city, for the very reasons I have stated.

 

[LMTD]

It was my understanding that LEOs could not act as an "agent" of a private property owner. Missouri State Statue 569.150 defines 2nd Degree Trespass as

I am not familiar with the AZ case. To a certain degree I was speaking from my own experience, but I was indeed never asked to leave. It was the management response a few days later that they are not allowed to contact armed persons and they are to call the police.

What you are saying is consistent with the ccw law, asked to leave, if the police are summoned and you again refuse to leave language does indicate property owner makes first request.

I am not sure how it might play out here in mo courts, would depend upon the judge I would imagine more than the strict interpretation of the law. I can see "Exentuating circumstances" and a few other buzz words from more than a few of them to skirt the true intent.

 

[Mike]

Sometimes showing that open carry is legal takes a little effort - like suppose you believe a private but non-posted establishment might bar you from entry for open carrying as you walk into it? Or that the employees of a preempted locality might try to enforce an unlawful gun ban in city hall?

One option for concealed handgun permit holders would be to enter while conceal carry - but later smoothly transition to open carry by say removing your jacket (and not obviously by way of public gun handling).

Fait acompli.