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Stopping a bear

tarzan1888

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A reminder of what can happen. :cry:

I have heard and read several up-dates on this story. The story below is typical.

A couple of things to note.

1. The same bear in the same area attacked another camper early Sunday morning.
2. One of the campers had a 9mm and fired 1 or more warning shots and scared off the bear.
3. The authorities were notified and a bear hunter spent 5 hours looking for the bear, but did not find it.
4. Knowing that an aggressive bear was on the loose, nothing was done, and the camping area was not closed.

My thoughts:

1. Always carry
2. Never fire a warning shot. Shoot to stop the threat.
3. If the bear had been killed that would have been the end of it. If the bear was only wounded then a wounded bear would have been easier to find and destroy than a live healthy one. they were using dogs to hunt the bear.
4. If the authorities had done their job and closed the area this may not have happened.
5. Bears just aren't scared of men any more, as they are protected with only limited hunting. (I am not a hunter)

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,665194896,00.html



Boy killed by bear

The 11-year-old was pulled from his tent

[font=Verdana,Helvetica,Arial]By Sara Israelsen[/font]
[font=Verdana,Helvetica,Arial]Deseret Morning News[/font]
AMERICAN FORK CANYON — A black bear that fatally mauled an 11-year-old boy in American Fork Canyon might not have been motivated by leftover camp food, officials said Monday.

4264939a.jpg

Steve Fidel, Deseret Morning News
Collette Young shows the hole left in her tent during a bear attack early Saturday in American Fork Canyon. No one was injured. "It does not appear that the very minimal amount of food in the campsite had anything to do with the bear attack," Utah County Sheriff's Lt. Darren Gilbert said.
The boy, Samuel Evan Ives of Pleasant Grove, was camping with his family in a wooded area just north of the Timpanooke campgrounds Sunday night when a bear slashed through his tent and pulled him out in his sleeping bag.
"We're trying to make sense of this very tragic event," grandfather Eldon Ives said. "It's something that just doesn't make sense. It's like a bad dream. We're still struggling with how to grieve."
"Some things you're prepared for, but we weren't prepared for news that our grandson and child was killed by a bear. That's one of the hardest things we're struggling with — the nonsensical nature of this tragedy."
Ives said the family appreciates the outpouring of concern but asks for respect and privacy as they grieve. A trust fund has been set up for Samuel Ives' family through Wells Fargo Bank.
This is the first black bear-related death recorded in Utah, officials said.
The family heard the boy's screams but couldn't find him outside, so they reported an abduction. Officers from several agencies searched for two hours before they found the boy's body nearly 400 yards from the family's multiroom tent, Utah County Sheriff's Lt. Dennis Harris said.
"It's just really sad," said Jim Karpowitz, director of the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources. "You don't expect that kind of thing when you are going camping with your family."
A 250- to 350-pound adult black bear was killed about 11:40 a.m. Monday after extensive tracking by 26 dogs and five houndsmen.
Officers shot the bear in the shoulder Sunday night, somewhere between Timpanooke and Ridge Line, but he ran off, and the dogs temporarily lost his scent. The bear wandered until he was finally tracked down and fatally shot.
The animal's body was pulled off the mountain by a Utah Highway Patrol helicopter, then driven to Utah State University for testing, said Mike Fowlks, chief of law enforcement for the Division of Wildlife Resources.

4264946a.jpg

Steve Fidel, Deseret Morning News
Jake Francom shows a pillow that was dragged away from his tent by a black bear early Saturday, a day before Sunday night's fatal mauling in the same primitive area. Dark marks on the pillow are the bear's paw prints. Wildlife officials said later Monday that DNA tests confirmed the bear was in fact responsible for the fatal mauling.
"Normally, they're just a nuisance, not killers," Karpowitz said. "This is the first (death) we've ever dealt with."
Officials also were investigating whether the bear was the same one that clawed into a tent of campers earlier. Those campers were questioning why the area wasn't shut down after they reported a bear scavenged in their campsite and ripped their tent.
Jake Francom, 26, camped with his girlfriend, his brother and two other friends Friday night in the same primitive area just above Timpanooke. The site is not a specific Forest Service campground and has no services.
He awoke when something outside the tent hit him in the head about 5:30 a.m. Saturday.
Thinking it was someone moving in the tent, he said, "Stop it." But when he felt two more hard hits, he realized it was a bear.
Jake told his girlfriend to get out, yelling at a friend in another tent to grab his gun.
The bear ripped through the tent, taking a bite out of his pillow.
The men shot at the bear a few times. It walked away from the camp, then stopped to stare at the campers before it lumbered off.
The campers drove down the canyon and called their parents, who called police.
After hearing about Sunday's fatality and having their sons' experience characterized as a "tent-brushing," the parents said they were frustrated and wondered why the area wasn't closed.
"Why would they let another family up there?" mother Kathy Francom said. "All they had to do was shut a gate (to the campground) and that boy wouldn't be gone."
"It broke me down," father Kurt Francom said of watching the news of the mauling early Monday. "It could have been my boy."
Uinta National Forest officials defended their decision to keep the forest open, saying the information they received about the bear didn't include many details, and they were told the proper agencies had been notified.

4264984a.jpg

KSL-TV
Wildlife officials drag the body of a black bear Monday. DNA tests showed the bear killed a boy Sunday. Plus, the area the family chose wasn't actually a campground but merely a flat spot of land.
"We are indeed sorry," said John Logan, acting district ranger for the Uinta National Forest. "Our hearts are going out to the family."
When they learned of the bear-related fatality about 2 a.m., they sent rangers to sweep campgrounds in the area. The area was sparsely populated with campers, but the rangers told them about the mauling and asked them to leave, said Loyal Clark, Uinta National Forest spokeswoman.
The division also posts signs at campgrounds and trailheads to notify campers and hikers about bears in the area and necessary precautions.
"We're doing everything we can to make people bear-aware," Karpowitz said. "It's hard to plan for an event that's never ever happened in the state of Utah."
Division of Wildlife Resources immediately classified the bear as a Level Three animal and sent out officers with a shoot-to-kill prerogative, Karpowitz said.
A Level Three bear is one that has displayed aggressive behavior toward humans, has little fear of humans or has attempted to kill domestic pets, according to information from the division.
Level Two animals need to be relocated, and Level One animals prompt officials to post signs about potential sightings.
From 1990 to 2007, there were 49 fatal attacks involving bears in North America, with 29 of those attacks occurring since 1990.
Being knowledgeable about the area and the potential dangers is the best way to avoid problems, Clark said.
"It's as safe as it's going to get out there," Clark said. "If there are hazards, we're going to try to mitigate those, evaluate those and take appropriate action."
For more information about camping safety visit: wildlife.utah.gov/ or www.fs.fed.us/r4/uinta/.


4265182a.jpg

Deseret Morning News graphic
4265340a.jpg

Deseret Morning News graphic
 

hamourkiller

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To start off with I have never seen let alone killed a bear of any sort. If forced to carry a rifle just for Bear protection it would be one of these.

http://www.wildwestguns.com/CoPilot_And_Guide_Rifles/body_copilot_and_guide_rifles.html

If that aint big enough we can always drop back to the DBL Rifle in large caliber, but I think any large tough bullet at 2000FPS will do the trick. As long as the gunner keeps his nerve and does his part.

Now for a handgun inwhich portability is a big factor I would lean in this direction with the heaviest garret loads I could stand.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=14774&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15706&isFirearm=Y

With the extreme light weight it will have brutal recoil but you can carry it for a long ways.

Of course the 460 S&W in 4" is good or the 4" .500 S&W

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=44954&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15707&isFirearm=Y

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=14778&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15707&isFirearm=Y

With todays weapons and cartridges there is no reason notto protect yourself in bear country with an adequate gun. Enjoy figuring which one you want then get it and have fun shooting it.

Big Bores Roar!
 

Tomahawk

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Tipped off from VA Alert, a story about what a grizzly can do to your brain housing group:


http://www.esquire.com/dont-miss/wifl/mauledbybear0807

What It Feels Like...to Be Mauled by a Bear
By Johan Otter, 45, hospital administrator
As told by James Ross Gardner

My eighteen-year-old daughter, Jenna, was a few yards ahead of me on a trail in Glacier National Park in Montana. She disappeared around a little hairpin turn in the path and a second later came back murmuring, "Oh, no" and darted past me. I stepped forward and I saw this animal running at me, mouth wide open.

I remember thinking, Wow, that's so weird, it's like a really big badger. Then its teeth were in my left thigh. I thought, How strange, I'm actually being bitten by something. The grizzly's fangs sank to my femur, and it jerked me all over the trail. I couldn't tuck into a fetal position, so my front side was exposed, and I thought, Man, it's going to rip my intestines out. So I dove off the trail, about twenty feet down.

Dense alder bushes broke my fall, and it looked like the bear might ease off. I yelled, "Jenna, come down here!" At the sound of my voice, the grizzly came charging down at me fast -- like you can't imagine how fast, like out-of-this-world fast. I curled into the fetal position. The bear's jaws clamped on my backpack and lifted me up and down. I tried to scramble out from under it but instead forced us into another tumble thirty feet down the mountain.

The fall really pissed off the grizzly. It gnawed on my head, and I could feel flesh tearing away. I grabbed the animal by the throat; its fur felt like a dirty wet dog, only thicker. I hit it with a rock, but the rock crumbled, so I wiggled back into the fetal position. Its teeth cut deep into the bottom of my skull; I actually heard bone cracking. I ripped myself loose and plunged another twenty feet down and into a crevice. The grizzly couldn't reach me. The terrain was too steep. It turned away, and a few seconds later I heard Jenna scream. And then I heard absolutely nothing.

I touched the top of my head and felt only bone. What was left of my scalp hung in front of my face, and I couldn't open my right eye. I called out to Jenna, and she called back from fifty yards away. Her injuries weren't nearly as severe. The grizzly had bitten her shoulders and head, split the side of her mouth open, clawed her back, and fled. She said she'd seen two cubs with the bear and that it was likely trying to protect its young.

I tried to crawl toward my daughter, but it hurt to move. Doctors later discovered a total of twenty-eight wounds, including a claw puncture to my right eye. One of my top vertebrae was broken in five pieces, and I would undergo multiple surgeries, including a skin graft from my back onto my scalped head. For now, I pushed my eyelid open with a bloody finger, saw Grinnell Lake shining blue in the valley below, and waited for help to arrive.
 

doug23838

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All you really need is a .22.

The first thing you need to know is that you don't need to outrun the bear.

Shoot your buddy in the knee. Run like hell.

That said: Never go into bear country with someone who's only packing a 22.

It sticks in my mind I read a thread on another board along the same lines. The consensus from those with experience was large caliber handgun .44 or more, or a 12 gauge shotgun with slugs.

Never seen a bear. Really want to see a bear. Don't want to shoot a bear. Unless its me or the bear. I'm guessing (hoping really) that a .357 will take care of the Va. Black bear that inhabit my state. If venturing where the bear are bigger, I'd have to up the (potential) response. Or, take a buddy and a .22 :D
 

Particle

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Any idea if a 5.56x45 handgun (7.25" barrel) would have any chance of providing protection? It's all I've got.
 

Particle

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Well, the reason I ask is because it has about the same amount of impact energy as a .45 ACP but with much smaller area. I'd think that it would have a fairly good shot of penetrating the skull or shattering a shoulder bone compared to traditional pistol cartridge handguns.
 

AbNo

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Good theory, provided you could HIT one of those spots.

No offense, but if you have to shoot a bear, then probably "It's coming right for us!", and bears move REALLY fast.

There are a couple of .223 pistols out there, I think one's called a Viper, or something like that. There's also the Kel-Tec PLR-16, which is a chopped WAY THE HELL down AR-15.

The PLR is REALLY front heavy, just so you know... (They have one at my favorite gun shop.:celebrate )
 

UTOC-45-44

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Agent19 wrote:
http://www.doubletapammo.comcheckout their website for true:what: perfromance ammo

Personal favorite a 10mmw/200gr WFNGC Beartooth 1300fps/ 750 ft./lbs.
fired from a Glock 20.

Not quite .44mag but I have 16 rounds and a more controllable package
I shoot better with my 44Mag Ruger Vaquero 5'5 (old style) than I do with my Kimber. What I do at 1" on a target with the Ruger I do at 2" with the Kimber from the same distance.:what:
 
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1Shot

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Bear -- any bear.

44 magnum minimum. It'd be nice in a rifle. 444 Marlin would be good. 45-70 Govt. or 12 gauge with slugs.

The 454 Casul and 500 Smith/Wesson came out because the 44 mag, is marginal in a handgun for bear.

You want two things for bear defense:

A bullet nearly 1/2" diameter and weighing 1/2 oz or better.

One hell of a lot of muzzle energy behind that bullet -- 44 mag. 444 Marlin, 45-70 Govt. 12 Gauge, 454 Casul, 500 Smith . . .

JHP bullets are NOT designed for the tough hides of animals. You want a soft-point bullet, JSP . . . about 1/2" diameter and 350 grains or better.

I'd feel OK fishing with a 44 mag, if I had a back-up in 45-70 Govt.
 

tarzan1888

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tarzan1888 wrote:
reefteach wrote:
I wouldn't want to be in that situation, and If I thought I was going to be, I would get no less than a .44. In my opinion, high capacity won't matter much. Assuming he is in close range and charging you, only the most skilled of shooters would be able to expend 14 rounds accurately. But maybe you're that good. I know I'm not. I would mess myself after the first3 rounds.




I have been wondering about what it would take to stop a bear and save your life for some time as I spend a lot of time out of doors and have come across a lot of bear sign. I know when I went to Alaska a few years ago and needed to protect myself from the Alaskan Coast Grizzly that I took a 12 gage with slugs and 00 Buck as advised by a long time resident.

If I am out in the lower 48, I will not be running into anything like these monsters, and so I wanted to know if there was an alternative to hauling the Mossberg around.


I had also heard a lot of guys express opinions similar to those expressed by reefteach and I had thought that they had some logic to them.


Finally I found the answer in a comment by Jeff Cooper and I quote;

"A "bear defense" course was recently run at Gunsite and turned up a couple of interesting points. One is that sheer power will not do for a bear. If you are in real danger from a bear, he will be on top of you, and what you need is penetration. Once a bear has got you down, or a lion for that matter, you have to brain him, and you must do that at contact distance. A 357 snubby, using a very hard, sharp-pointed bullet, would seem to be the answer. I have a friend who went this route while attempting to photograph a lion. He used a Super 38 auto, and while he survived, he will never again have full use of his left hand."

So I bought some .357 FMJ and that is what I will carry in my Taurus 7 shot snubby.

Remember I am not hunting bears, but this is only my last ditch effort to save my life when all else fails.


Here is the link. Scroll down about 3 pages.

http://www.molonlabe.net/Commentaries/jeff10_6.html
 

Mini14

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Is it The Keltech with the 30rd AR magazine? If so, it is an excellent choice. Put a front pistol undeneath the handguard and you could hose him down, think mowing down time.
 

FogRider

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Story from an old Montana fishing guide my dad hired:

When asked about the .45 he carried, he said it was for bear defence. "will that stop a bear?" "No, but it sure will slow down whoever I am with."

I hope he was joking.
 

Tomahawk

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A guy from Montana once told me how to tell what kind of bear is chasing you:

If you climb a tree and the bear follows up it, it's a black bear.

If there are no trees to climb, it's a polar bear.

If you climb the tree and the bear rips the tree out of the ground and shakes you out of it, it's a grizzly.
 
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