Stopping a bear

[tarzan1888]

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reefteach wrote:

I wouldn't want to be in that situation, and If I thought I was going to be, I would get no less than a .44. In my opinion, high capacity won't matter much. Assuming he is in close range and charging you, only the most skilled of shooters would be able to expend 14 rounds accurately. But maybe you're that good. I know I'm not. I would mess myself after the first3 rounds.

I have been wondering about what it would take to stop a bear and save your life for some time as I spend a lot of time out of doors and have come across a lot of bear sign. I know when I went to Alaska a few years ago and needed to protect myself from the Alaskan Coast Grizzly that I took a 12 gage with slugs and 00 Buck as advised by a long time resident.

If I am out in the lower 48, I will not be running into anything like these monsters, and so I wanted to know if there was an alternative to hauling the Mossberg around.


I had also heard a lot of guys express opinions similar to those expressed by reefteach and I had thought that they had some logic to them.


Finally I found the answer in a comment by Jeff Cooper and I quote;

"A "bear defense" course was recently run at Gunsite and turned up a couple of interesting points. One is that sheer power will not do for a bear. If you are in real danger from a bear, he will be on top of you, and what you need is penetration. Once a bear has got you down, or a lion for that matter, you have to brain him, and you must do that at contact distance. A 357 snubby, using a very hard, sharp-pointed bullet, would seem to be the answer. I have a friend who went this route while attempting to photograph a lion. He used a Super 38 auto, and while he survived, he will never again have full use of his left hand."

So I bought some .357 FMJ and that is what I will carry in my Taurus 7 shot snubby.

Remember I am not hunting bears, but this is only my last ditch effort to save my life when all else fails.


Here is the link. Scroll down about 3 pages.

http://www.molonlabe.net/Commentaries/jeff10_6.html

 

[casullshooter]

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Ruger makes a version of the Super Redhawk DA Revolver in a snubby . It is chambered in .454 Casull , you can get hard cast rounds for it . The muzzle energy is 1800-1925 lb-ft , compare to a .357 @ 600 lb-ft of energy .

.454 Casull............KA-BOOM!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[IanB]

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Is that similar to a Glock .40 KABOOM?:lol:

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html

 

[casullshooter]

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A .40 S&W is not even in the same ball park w/.454 Casull look at the muzzle energy!

 

[IanB]

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Aww, you were supposed to read the linkie thingy there to see what a Glock .40 KABOOM is. (gun explodes)

 

[PaulB]

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Cooper assumes you will be dealing with a bear on top of you, and if that is so, his recommendation of a .357 (with heavy, penetrating bullets) makes sense. Probably even more sense than a heavily-loaded .44 which is less easy to control with one hand. But why would he make that assumption? Many attacking bears have been killed before they were on top of the shooter, and trying for a brain shot at distance is tough.

Still, it is clear that a properly-loaded .357 is a form of bear defense, although one requiring near-contact.

I once cooked up bear loads for a 6" S&W 686, 180 grain hard cast bullets at max velocity. The recoil was so heavy I had to replace the thin stock hogue grips with wider Pachmayers. I shudder to think of the recoil in a smaller gun.

 

[casullshooter]

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nakedshoplifter wrote:

Aww, you were supposed to read the linkie thingy there to see what a Glock .40 KABOOM is. (gun explodes)

OK I checked the link.........another reason why I will never own a Glock.

 

[tarzan1888]

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PaulB wrote:

Cooper assumes you will be dealing with a bear on top of you, and if that is so, his recommendation of a .357 (with heavy, penetrating bullets) makes sense. Probably even more sense than a heavily-loaded .44 which is less easy to control with one hand. But why would he make that assumption? Many attacking bears have been killed before they were on top of the shooter, and trying for a brain shot at distance is tough.

Still, it is clear that a properly-loaded .357 is a form of bear defense, although one requiring near-contact.

I once cooked up bear loads for a 6" S&W 686, 180 grain hard cast bullets at max velocity. The recoil was so heavy I had to replace the thin stock hogue grips with wider Pachmayers. I shudder to think of the recoil in a smaller gun.

A large bear can run 30 to 35 miles per hour.

They can be on you before you know it.

I think that is why he assumed the need for a contact type of defense.

 

[Hawkflyer]

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I want to start out by saying I have never killed a bear, and don't ever intend to do so. I have spent some time watching them, and decided a long time ago, that I really have no desire to kill one except in self defense, and I don't rate a humans chances as very high in those situations, based on observing bears work. If you are close enough for the bear to attack you, you have already given up most of the advantage you might ever have had as a thinking human.

One thing that I think is missing (overlooked) in this discussion, is more about bear biology, psychology, and physics of bear attacks.

In the southeast you will only find black bears. They are rather timid unless young are involved or they are defending a food source. You are more likely to encounter one if it smells your food supplies and comes foraging at night than when just walking along. Proper camp protocols in food handling reduce this likelihood greatly.

They are opportunistic foragers, but they will hunt small animals. Humans are NOT a primary food source for these guys as we are simply too large for routine hunting by them.

If it is foraging your camp, it will be harder to scare off, if it has cubs, it will fight (even attack). But if you are just walking along and encounter one, they are usually easily scared off. They can run fast, but it does take a moment for them to get in gear. You cannot escape them by climbing a tree, they can climb too. Black bear have often been taken with everything from .357 Mag up, with varying results. If the animal is adrenaline pumped, it will be harder to stop. If it is attacking it will be pumping adrenaline and it will keep fighting until you positively shut it down by inflicting damage on it until it simply cannot continue the fight.

Brown, Grizzly, and Kodiak are all really technically the same bear, and only occur in the north and western parks of the US and Canada. There is overlap of their range with Black bears, and Black bears are not infrequently on the menu for their larger cousins. These are large, fast, strong, active predators they can and will hunt humans if they are hungary enough, and humans are not large enough to be considered completely off the menu as a primary food source. If these guys decide they want you they will be adrenaline pumped and stopping them is akin to stopping an oncoming honda civic. They have thick skulls, and while they are not usually considered a "hard skinned" animal like Cape Buffalo, they are tough, big boned, heavy bodied, carry a thick layer of fat under their skin and are well armed. Killing one is nothing like killing a deer.

You are not going to RELIABLY stop these guys with ANY handgun. To be sure this has been done with a variety of calibers, but it is not the preferred method. There is an account of a hunting group taking a large Grizzly with multiple shots from S&W .500 magnums. And the bear was NOT particularly pumped up for the fight when the shooting started. It was fairly pissed off from all the shooting long before it finally went down.

There is no question that a high power rifle is the best choice if you have to shoot a bear of any kind. But ANY caliber handgun is better than ANY knife, Any knife is better than any spray, and any spray is better than nothing. It should be noted that while each situation will be unique, the techniques and mindset of the defender MUST be different when defending against a wild animal than it is when defending against a human. This difference extends to pre-fight selection of weapons to be employed.

Based on actual shooting incidents, most (not all) gunfights between humans do not really require a lot of moving around. Surprisingly people tend to stand fairly still and shoot at each other. In fact if you read Boarder patrol and other accounts from the 1920s and 1930s, the one most significant factor cited by those that had been in a number of gunfights, was the willingness to stand their ground in the face of hostile fire, remain cool and place aimed fire on the opposing target.

This technique will likely get you killed in a fight against a large predator. In almost every case, a large animal will charge as part of the attach. A step to the side at the last second, and delivery of close range shots has saved many a human from certain death. Remember this is typically a 1000 pound animal going nominally 20 miles per hour. That is a LOT of inertia, it cannot stop or turn on a dime. If you can get a grizzly to stand up as it approaches, this improves your chances a little. It slows the bears approach speed, and it provide access for large vital area hits with a gun, but you lose the advantage of inertia.

But the fact is that stopping a bear attack involves breaking bones in the shoulders or hips, or placing a shot in the brain pan. Placing shots in other areas requires penetration beyond the fat layer, which means heavy, deep penetrating bullets of large diameter that will make a hole that will not close up behind the bullet. You want the animal to bleed a lot, and you want it to do so very fast. They can live long enough to run up to 200 yards if you shoot them in the heart. Failing that, you have to use the bears own inertia to your advantage, and avoid physical contact, while still applying what ever attack you have at your disposal. The judo and karate guys among us will know exactly what I am saying here.

Of course you shoot during the charge, but you MUST be ready at the last second to GET OUT OF HIS WAY, and let it run past you. A 1000 pound bear can kill you by simply falling on you. Once you hit the animal, it will become enraged further, and this will usually mean than you MUST fight to the death. You must think of the battle as a knife fight with a larger stronger opponent, and you MUST avoid contact at all costs. If you can do that long enough you can kill the bear with a .22 if you can put enough of them into it.

The best most effective defense against any bear attack is to avoid the attack in the first place. Failing that the best weapon you can have is not on your hip, it is between your ears. But any weapon is better than none.

It is important to remember that humans are the most likely threat you will encounter, but not the only threat. You should plan for the worst threat you might encounter when selecting a defensive weapon. The weapon you select to defend against a bear, will most certainly work against a human aggressor too, the reverse is not very likely to be be true.

Regards

 

[KodiakISGOOD]

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Hawkflyer,

a buddy of mine just moved to alaska and he got himself one of these!

http://www.alexanderarms.com/siteshopper.htm?cat=14&item=26#

any thoughts?

Happy Carrying,


Jason

 

[Hawkflyer]

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That should do the trick.

 

[Mini14]

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KodiakISGOOD wrote:

Hawkflyer,

a buddy of mine just moved to alaska and he got himself one of these!

http://www.alexanderarms.com/siteshopper.htm?cat=14&item=26#

any thoughts?

Happy Carrying,


Jason

Totally excellent! A rapid-fire, rapidly reloadable weapon of large caliber; ideal for facing any big game animal!

I'd love to see an AK47 in that caliber.

 

[Mini14]

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KodiakISGOOD wrote:

Hawkflyer,

a buddy of mine just moved to alaska and he got himself one of these!

http://www.alexanderarms.com/siteshopper.htm?cat=14&item=26#

any thoughts?

Happy Carrying,


Jason

 

[Mjolnir]

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I live on the edge of bear country & have had black & brown bears wander into our camp at different times.

A pistol is nothing more than someting to make you feel secure when camping in bear country. My pistol is a S&W 6in 44mag loaded with Garrett's 310gr super hardcast Hammerhead ammo in the hopes it will penatrate deep enough to do some dammage before a bear kills me.

However, I also keep a Marlin 45/70 guide gun close at hand & in the tent at night loaded again with Garrett's [font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]420-grain hard cast Hammerhead ammo.

If you keep your pistol loaded with JHP or ball ammo it will not penatrate deep enough to do any damage and you will end up bear food. Always load your handgun of choice with a hardcast lead bullet as that bullet will have the best chance of deep penatration and the hopes of hitting something vital.
[/font]

 

[Tomahawk]

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A rifle is best, of course, but how would you wield it from inside your tent? When I camp I keep the handgun inside the sleeping bag with me. Only black bears in my area, though. Those and the occasional beast of the 2-legged variety.

 

[IanB]

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I'd be curious to know how many bears continue to attack after being shot several times, even with a puny 9MM.

 

[Tomahawk]

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nakedshoplifter wrote:

I'd be curious to know how many bears continue to attack after being shot several times, even with a puny 9MM.

I don't know if they continue to attack, but grizzlies at least sure aren't easy to kill. This is from the journal of Lewis of Lewis & Clarke fame:

Capt. Clark & Drewyer killed the largest brown bear this evening which we have yet seen. it was a most tremendious looking anamal, and extreemly hard to kill notwithstanding he had five balls through his lungs and five others in various parts he swam more than half the distance across the river to a sandbar & it was at least twenty minutes before he died; he did not attempt to attact, but fled and made the most tremendous roaring from the moment he was shot.

 

[Mjolnir]

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Tomahawk wrote:

A rifle is best, of course, but how would you wield it from inside your tent? When I camp I keep the handgun inside the sleeping bag with me. Only black bears in my area, though. Those and the occasional beast of the 2-legged variety.

Depends on the size of your tent now does it not Besides, for more than 20 years I carried a M16 of one kind or another with me & ya learn what works and what does not when it comes to operation in close quarters.

 

[Mjolnir]

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nakedshoplifter wrote:

I'd be curious to know how many bears continue to attack after being shot several times, even with a puny 9MM.

Why don't ya try it and if ya live report back here & inform everybody how it went :lol::lol::lol:

 

[Hawkflyer]

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nakedshoplifter wrote:

I'd be curious to know how many bears continue to attack after being shot several times, even with a puny 9MM.

You shoot it and fail to do more than hurt it, and it will attack, and if it gets a hold of you, and you survive, you will be a member of a VERY small group of people.

Black bears are more timid, and easier to kill. But a grizzly bear can take a lot of punishment and keep going. If it has already decided it is going to attack, wounding it may slow it down, but it will not stop him.

I think I will stick with rifles, shotguns, and .50 cal handguns, as weapons of last resort, and the brains to stay out of their way as a first resort.

Regards