Secession madness! Now 40 states join petition fray

[We-the-People]

Who said these petitioners did not like the outcome of one vote? Who said their frustration hasn't developed over the last four to eight years?

This great nation? The nation is not the government. The government is emphatically not our society. You will find German culture in Switzerland, and French culture in Belgium and Holland, etc.

Regarding their patriotism, the American revolutionaries fought for their states. The central government did not come along until 1789, and even then, the Framers were careful to limit it to a point where it had supremacy over individual states on only a few certain matters, or, if they secretly intended a powerful central government that would overshadow the states, they were careful to hide it. Also, as late as 1860, people still regarded their state as their country. A US Army colonel with a good career and future resigned his commission because, in his own words, he could not take up arms against his native country. You may have heard of him. Robert E. Lee from Virginia.

And Lee was only one of the leaders of that era who chose to fight for his country (from both sides) that made tough decisions. Many Union Generals didn't like the idea of the war of aggression waged against the South, nor the terrorist methods (Sherman ring a bell) employed. Many Southern Generals disagreed with slavery but fought for their homelands out of principle.

As for the other posters claim that the feds have the right to investigate protestors, I guess they've never heard of the first amendment?

 

[carsontech]

How many of the "secessionists" claim to be Patriotic Americans? You cannot be both. Secessionists are the ANTI-Patriot. If you do not like the outcome of ONE VOTE, and want to leave this great nation over this ONE VOTE, then go find some other place to live.

Canada? Nope. No guns. Mexico? Nope. No Guns. And Drug Cartel violence. Argentina? Nope. No Guns. Great Britain? Nope. No Guns. France? Nope. No Guns. Germany? Nope. No Guns. Russia? Nope. No Guns. China? Nope. No Guns.

Ah here you go: Somalia! Plenty of guns and little government. Go there.

Patriotism is just a loaded term that the media and government uses. It's just propaganda.

Lets play around with some Noam Chomsky:

The point of public relations slogans like "Do you support America?" is that they don't mean anything. That's the whole point of good propaganda. You want to create a slogan that nobody's going to be against, and everybody's going to be for. Nobody knows what it means, because it doesn't mean anything. It's crucial value is that it diverts your attention from a question that does mean something: "Do yo support the U.S. government's policies? That's the one you're not allowed to talk about.

http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/199201--.htm

"At the national level, what "patriotism" means depends on how we view the society. Those with deep totalitarian commitments identify the state with the society, its people, and its culture. Therefore those who criticized the policies of the Kremlin under Stalin were condemned as "anti-Soviet" or "hating Russia". For their counterparts in the West, those who criticize the policies of the US government are "anti-American" and "hate America"; those are the standard terms used by intellectual opinion, including left-liberal segments, so deeply committed to their totalitarian instincts that they cannot even recognize them, let alone understand their disgraceful history, tracing to the origins of recorded history in interesting ways. For the totalitarian, "patriotism" means support for the state and its policies, perhaps with twitters of protest on grounds that they might fail or cost us too much."

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/nc_patrio.htm

 

[Hef]

Abudhabi? I don't care long are they're out. If only they would follow through with their threats and move to Canada/Australia.

They already stated an intent to leave. They just have no intention of giving up their land and property on the way out.

Since it's quite obvious you have no clue, like most liberals, I'll spell it out for you re: treason.

Treason is a willful action or actions to weaken or otherwise undermine your country, or to aid her enemies. Secession is the act of a state to dissolve a voluntary bond between it and a union of other states. Remember, we are the United States, with a government formed of representatives from member states. We are not a nation of provinces. Participation in the federation of states is voluntary, as the individual states are not subordinate levels of government, unlike provinces.

 

[Citizen]

They already stated an intent to leave. They just have no intention of giving up their land and property on the way out.

Since it's quite obvious you have no clue, like most liberals, I'll spell it out for you re: treason.

Treason is a willful action or actions to weaken or otherwise undermine your country, or to aid her enemies. Secession is the act of a state to dissolve a voluntary bond between it and a union of other states. Remember, we are the United States, with a government formed of representatives from member states. We are not a nation of provinces. Participation in the federation of states is voluntary, as the individual states are not subordinate levels of government, unlike provinces.

Which is really just a backwards way of telling the fedgov to leave their lands, eh?

 

[david.ross]

They already stated an intent to leave. They just have no intention of giving up their land and property on the way out.

Since it's quite obvious you have no clue, like most liberals, I'll spell it out for you re: treason.

Let's see what the Administration says after the petition his 25k. I'm sure there will be a plan to give everyone who wants to forfeit their citizenship a plan to leave the country, as in not seceding and letting them go elsewhere.

 

[Citizen]

Let's see what the Administration says after the petition his 25k. I'm sure there will be a plan to give everyone who wants to forfeit their citizenship a plan to leave the country, as in not seceding and letting them go elsewhere.

Oh, so let me see if I understand your position.

People get tired of fedgov over-regulation, excessive spending driving the debt to the moon, etc., and ask permission to withdraw from the dominion of a government that is supposedly by consent of the governed. Which is really just a round-about way of telling the government they no longer consent to be governed by the over-spending, over-regulating members of that government.

And, you side with the over-spending, over-regulating government that, instead of the members of that government losing their citizenship, their victims should?

Oh, that's good.

Bwahahahahahahahahahaa!!

 

[david.ross]

Oh, so let me see if I understand your position.

People get tired of fedgov over-regulation, excessive spending driving the debt to the moon, etc., and ask permission to withdraw from the dominion of a government that is supposedly by consent of the governed. Which is really just a round-about way of telling the government they no longer consent to be governed by the over-spending, over-regulating members of that government.

And, you side with the over-spending, over-regulating government that, instead of the members of that government losing their citizenship, their victims should?

I'm not siding with overspending, I'm siding with the president who is more pressed for equal rights for all, which is currently Obama.

1) Gay rights - marriage(even though I irk at the term since it's nothing more than a legal contract) Obama said he would not defend DOMA

There are two types of marriage, legal and religious. Even if the state doesn't recognize marriage from a legal standpoint, people can still religiously get married to another of the same sex.

How does this fiscally matter? Under federal law, same sex marriage isn't recognized. Once same sex marriages are recognized, those couples will be able to enjoy the same tax breaks every other married couple does. Until then, companies like Google will pad same sex partner's and their income to offset the lack of a tax break, unfortunately everyone doesn't do this.

2) The war on people's right to do what they want to their body if they're a woman.

I'm for choosing what to do with one's body, including abortion. If we develop a technology to transplant a fetus to an artificial womb until birth, then I'd be all for pro-life legislation mandating the fetus be grown until fully developed.

3) There's no way Obama will do anything with gun rights

The small arms treaty is international thus to my belief isn't a protected right. I predict if the treaty is ratified small arms manufacturers will be required to build their factories here. Being the US is a major source of firearms purchases, firearms manufacturers will move operations here for the revenue stream.

Obama won't risk passing firearms legislation, he knows it will make democrats lose both the next presidency and the senate, cool your heels.

4) While I do get irate when people break the law regarding immigration, Obama's "amnesty" is for the better for the people who were brought here as a child.

Many illegals now here, even going to college, never knew their home country. They were brought here young and the US is their home country. I'm curious how the US became so xenophobic, it's rather disgusting.

 

[Citizen]

I'm not siding with overspending, I'm siding with the president who is more pressed for equal rights for all, which is currently Obama.

1) Gay rights - marriage(even though I irk at the term since it's nothing more than a legal contract) Obama said he would not defend DOMA

There are two types of marriage, legal and religious. Even if the state doesn't recognize marriage from a legal standpoint, people can still religiously get married to another of the same sex.

How does this fiscally matter? Under federal law, same sex marriage isn't recognized. Once same sex marriages are recognized, those couples will be able to enjoy the same tax breaks every other married couple does. Until then, companies like Google will pad same sex partner's and their income to offset the lack of a tax break, unfortunately everyone doesn't do this.

2) The war on people's right to do what they want to their body if they're a woman.

I'm for choosing what to do with one's body, including abortion. If we develop a technology to transplant a fetus to an artificial womb until birth, then I'd be all for pro-life legislation mandating the fetus be grown until fully developed.

3) There's no way Obama will do anything with gun rights

The small arms treaty is international thus to my belief isn't a protected right. I predict if the treaty is ratified small arms manufacturers will be required to build their factories here. Being the US is a major source of firearms purchases, firearms manufacturers will move operations here for the revenue stream.

Obama won't risk passing firearms legislation, he knows it will make democrats lose both the next presidency and the senate, cool your heels.

4) While I do get irate when people break the law regarding immigration, Obama's "amnesty" is for the better for the people who were brought here as a child.

Many illegals now here, even going to college, never knew their home country. They were brought here young and the US is their home country. I'm curious how the US became so xenophobic, it's rather disgusting.

Oh, let me make sure I understand your "clarified" position.

You support an over-regulating, over-spending government against its victims because that government does some pandering about issues that are actually less important than the economic destruction of the nation? Oooo. What are you gonna do when you wake up one morning to discover that while forcing everyone to recognize your right to marry, that same government was setting you up to be forced to pay mountains of interest on the national debt, while making you maintain a living in the face of rising price inflation caused by government chartered monetary policy?

Yep, I stand corrected. You definitely have your priorities in the right place.

Not.

Quit walking it back. You were attacking protected protesters and you know it. There were lots of ways to denigrate them without threatening IRS audits, revoked citizenship, etc. It would seem you've never even heard of the term the loyal opposition. Nope, if they don't agree with you and your politician, then they're disloyal, deserving to be audited and have their citizenship revoked.

 

[david.ross]

You support an over-regulating, over-spending government against its victims because that government does some pandering about issues that are actually less important than the economic destruction of the nation? Oooo.

Uh? Excuse me? Romney wanted to make sure marriage is still protected under what DOMA says, which is over-regulation. Who also wants to place additional regulations making it okay for religious institutions to be exempt from providing birth control(it is called an additional regulation), to place regulations on abortion forcing women to undergo additional steps to perform an abortion and attempting to place additional restrictions to limit abortion as a whole.

Yeah, you made perfect sense Citizen, NOT! Citizen, you're a hypocrite, deal with it.

What are you gonna do when you wake up one morning to discover that while forcing everyone to recognize your right to marry, that same government was setting you up to be forced to pay mountains of interest on the national debt, while making you maintain a living in the face of rising price inflation caused by government chartered monetary policy?

As opposed to the people who are married in a heterosexual nature? Where's the fairness there, there is none.

Yep, I stand corrected. You definitely have your priorities in the right place.

Yes, I do have my priorities straight(or maybe they swing a different way), do you? You're the one wanting to restrict the rights of people. You're no better than the anti-gunners who want to place additional regulations on firearms.

 

[carsontech]

Yeah, you made perfect sense Citizen, NOT! Citizen, you're a hypocrite, deal with it.

I don't think you've read enough of Citizen's past posts, or know him well enough, to be able to call him a hypocrite.

He doesn't support any politicians. He advocates for all civil liberties, not just a few. He is consistent, from what I've seen.

Just because someone doesn't support Obama doesn't mean they support/voted for Romney. Just because someone dislikes A, doesn't mean that they automatically like B.

Anyway, here is some information on discussions and critical thinking that we could all benefit from:

Arguing with ghosts

Open-mindedness

Critical Thinking

 

[Hef]

Which is really just a backwards way of telling the fedgov to leave their lands, eh?

Fort Sumter, anyone?

 

[Hef]

Let's see what the Administration says after the petition his 25k. I'm sure there will be a plan to give everyone who wants to forfeit their citizenship a plan to leave the country, as in not seceding and letting them go elsewhere.

And if they already are "elsewhere", what will Obama do? Remember, states can secede because the land they occupy is their own. The federal government doesn't own everything within the borders of the United States.

 

[PistolPackingMomma]

Let's see what the Administration says after the petition his 25k. I'm sure there will be a plan to give everyone who wants to forfeit their citizenship a plan to leave the country, as in not seceding and letting them go elsewhere.

You are SURE that the government will let go of any taxable, exploitable citizen that wishes to withdraw from its grasp? Then why not just let them secede? The result would be the same; the government would have no authority over those people or their rights.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Good, I'm glad they're giving a chance where the feds can document them in the open. I expect everyone there will have their tax returns audited and people will be thoroughly investigated.

Feds have the right to make sure none of the attendees are purposely causing trouble by investigating each and every one of them. You have to remember during protests, there are individuals who will intentionally start trouble, just as secession activists are trying to do.

Uh? Excuse me? Romney wanted to make sure marriage is still protected under what DOMA says, which is over-regulation. Who also wants to place additional regulations making it okay for religious institutions to be exempt from providing birth control(it is called an additional regulation), to place regulations on abortion forcing women to undergo additional steps to perform an abortion and attempting to place additional restrictions to limit abortion as a whole.

Yeah, you made perfect sense Citizen, NOT! Citizen, you're a hypocrite, deal with it.



As opposed to the people who are married in a heterosexual nature? Where's the fairness there, there is none.



Yes, I do have my priorities straight(or maybe they swing a different way), do you? You're the one wanting to restrict the rights of people. You're no better than the anti-gunners who want to place additional regulations on firearms.

A woman has the right to choose what to do with her body ( I agree by the way) yet we must force people to accept something in their private lives they disagree with. You don't see the hypocrisy there? Individual rights are just that individual. The government shouldn't be involved in marriage gay or straight. The government shouldn't be allowed to forget it's constitutional restrictions just because there are some who dissent with it.

 

[Jeff. State]

People who sign the petition of secession should be charged with treason.

Good, I'm glad they're giving a chance where the feds can document them in the open. I expect everyone there will have their tax returns audited and people will be thoroughly investigated.

Feds have the right to make sure none of the attendees are purposely causing trouble by investigating each and every one of them. You have to remember during protests, there are individuals who will intentionally start trouble, just as secession activists are trying to do.

You sir, with you're Statist attitude would have been a model citizen in Nazi Germany or the Communist East Block Countries.


You seem to be all for this "Nation" so long as they are promoting your "causes".

 

[We-the-People]

Oh, so let me see if I understand your position.

People get tired of fedgov over-regulation, excessive spending driving the debt to the moon, etc., and ask permission to withdraw from the dominion of a government that is supposedly by consent of the governed. Which is really just a round-about way of telling the government they no longer consent to be governed by the over-spending, over-regulating members of that government.

And, you side with the over-spending, over-regulating government that, instead of the members of that government losing their citizenship, their victims should?

Oh, that's good.

Bwahahahahahahahahahaa!!

^^^^^^^^^^
What he said!!!!!!

 

[david.ross]

You sir, with you're Statist attitude would have been a model citizen in Nazi Germany or the Communist East Block Countries.


You seem to be all for this "Nation" so long as they are promoting your "causes".

 

[Jeff. State]

If it walks like a ----, talks like a ----, etc., etc., etc.

Not "Godwins Law", just a Fact david. You talk of investigations, rounding up and deporting, sicking the IRS on people, etc.


Tolerance indeed.:lol:

 

[compmanio365]

Hitler, Stalin....pick your despot. This guy would be at their right hand. I find his attitude and questionable morality indicative of the delusion that apparently half of the country now shares. They honestly believe they are helping this country while every action they take has an outcome of making things worse, which they then quickly blame on the people that opposed them, even though they got their way. I don't understand it, but then I guess that's because I'm not a psychologist and using logic with the mentally ill just makes them more irrational.

 

[Citizen]

If it walks like a ----, talks like a ----, etc., etc., etc.

Not "Godwins Law", just a Fact david. You talk of investigations, rounding up and deporting, sicking the IRS on people, etc.


Tolerance indeed.:lol:

I've never bought into the Godwin's Law thing. The Nazi's were the epitome of bad. Everybody knows about them. What's a guy to do when he wants to draw a comparison? Dig up a 7th century monster nobody knows about?

Its kind of interesting to read old literature. You know who was used as the Nazi before 1933? Herod was one. Because pretty much any Christian reader would know and understand the writer's point, I am sure. Emporer Caligula was another.