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Ron Paul Facts

Brass Magnet

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Ugh...........fine.........

Again, I have hijacked nothing. I have merely responded to serious, non-humorous assertions in this thread (as have you), and I will continue to do so (as you seem to be doing so right now).

If the pro-Paul posters stop posting seriously and positively about him (and you stop bellyaching about OT), there will be nothing to which I will bother responding.

I guess It's lost already anyway........soooo....

Then, a serious question: What makes you feel the need to respond to every pro-Paul comment that you find on the forum?
 
Last edited:

eye95

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I guess It's lost already anyway........soooo....

Then, a serious question: What makes you feel the need to respond to every [emphasis mine] pro-Paul comment that you find on the forum?

I don't.

However, I respond to enough of them to aid others who post in opposition to Paul in making it clear that this board is not in monolithic support of Paul and in the hope of getting others to examine Paul's isolationism, with which they may have serious issue.

Considering that there are four active threads started to support Paul, some of us need to counter this deceptive level of "noise."
 

Brass Magnet

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I don't.

However, I respond to enough of them to aid others who post in opposition to Paul in making it clear that this board is not in monolithic support of Paul and in the hope of getting others to examine Paul's isolationism, with which they may have serious issue.

Considering that there are four active threads started to support Paul, some of us need to counter this deceptive level of "noise."

I don't think there is anything appearing as monolithic support for Paul. Indeed there is a lot of support for him on this forum as even indicated by your own straw poll. I can't believe for a minute that you are doing this out of the kindness of your heart for poor unsuspecting posters who may accidently support Paul and not know about his foreign policy stance. I think you are doing it for your own ends. Why? When you keep using the word "isolationism" while ignoring the absence of protectionism it's pretty clear that you have an agenda. If your post would have said "...Paul's foreign policy, with which they may have serious issue." I wouldn't feel as strongly as I do about your motives. POF and I disagree on Paul's foreign policy, yet; I haven't taken much issue with his posts for example.

Once again, there is a difference between isolationism and non-interventionism. Non-interventionism takes some pages out of the book of isolationism (and our founders thoughts); "avoid entangling alliances" but has distinctive differences such as "try to be friends, have diplomacy and free trade with everyone". This is why you are being disingenuous IMO because I believe you know the differences but don't want to subscribe to them as it hurts your position. By your form of redefinition I could just as easily call someone who supports foreign wars and interventionism an isolationist if that person is for protectionist trade measures such as tariffs.
 

Freedom First

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Well, I've avoided getting into this but I just wanted to ask eye95, "Have you actually read any of Mr. Paul's writings?" Not an attack, so don't get out of shape. Just a question since this is clearly something you are passionate about.

BTW, I'm completely undecided thus far in the 2012 "election".
 
Last edited:

eye95

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I don't think there is anything appearing as monolithic support for Paul. Indeed there is a lot of support for him on this forum as even indicated by your own straw poll. I can't believe for a minute that you are doing this out of the kindness of your heart for poor unsuspecting posters who may accidently support Paul and not know about his foreign policy stance...

I claim no kindness. We need to discuss the candidates. We retain the right to persuade others to our POV. That is all.

I do not question your right to post in support of Paul. You should not question my right to post in opposition.
 

eye95

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Well, I've avoided getting into this but I just wanted to ask eye95, "Have you actually read any of Mr. Paul's writings?" Not an attack, so don't get out of shape. Just a question since this is clearly something you are passionate about.

BTW, I'm completely undecided thus far in the 2012 "election".

As I have said before, I have watched and listened to dozens of interviews and debates where he does not get to present an unscrutinized, unchallenged, and carefully crafted treatise, where instead, he must expound on his views in the face of a challenge, where one gets an honest feel for where he stands. It is a result of these actual words of Paul that I have come to the conclusion that he is dangerously and unrealistically isolationist, regardless of how he an his supporters try to nuance it with other labels.

When one applies for a job, the resume (unscrutinized, unchallenged, and carefully crafted) just gets your foot in the door. It is the interview that gets you the job. Paul repeatedly fails the interview when it comes to foreign policy. At least IMO. You may find differently.
 

Freedom First

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I claim no kindness. We need to discuss the candidates. We retain the right to persuade others to our POV. That is all.

I do not question your right to post in support of Paul. You should not question my right to post in opposition.

You know, eye, we agree in this too. People often think that the Framers were of one mind. Not so. Bitter arguments were typical that hot summer in Philly. Passionate men discussing the future of their children. Important stuff and I feel that we, as a nation are in a somewhat similar situation.

But, and this is just me sharing my opinion, I think rather than using a sound bite style discussion, things like this are better done in a longer form. Statement and reply. Federalist Papers style. More meat for people to think about.

Maybe a discussion on how you feel that "isolationism" would be implemented and how you see it playing out... Thanks for being your honest self. Right, wrong or otherwise... :lol:
 

Brass Magnet

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I claim no kindness. We need to discuss the candidates. We retain the right to persuade others to our POV. That is all.

I do not question your right to post in support of Paul. You should not question my right to post in opposition.

Another partial quote to suit your ends by avoiding the crux of the matter. NO WHERE am I questioning your right to post in opposition. I was annoyed with my thread going off topic but that's a different story and unrelated. I have no problem with you supporting someone else or that you don't like someones foreign policy. I have a problem with you changing the accepted definitions of the words to suit your persuasion tactic and engaging in sophystry in an atempt to fool others into believing what you say.

...Once again, there is a difference between isolationism and non-interventionism. Non-interventionism takes some pages out of the book of isolationism (and our founders thoughts); "avoid entangling alliances" but has distinctive differences such as "try to be friends, have diplomacy and free trade with everyone". This is why you are being disingenuous IMO because I believe you know the differences but don't want to subscribe to them as it hurts your position. By your form of redefinition I could just as easily call someone who supports foreign wars and interventionism an isolationist if that person is for protectionist trade measures such as tariffs.

Start calling it like it is instead of redefining it and we can discuss the meat and potatoes of the matter. Keep calling it what it isn't and we'll continue to have a problem.
 

Freedom First

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As I have said before, I have watched and listened to dozens of interviews and debates where he does not get to present an unscrutinized, unchallenged, and carefully crafted treatise, where instead, he must expound on his views in the face of a challenge, where one gets an honest feel for where he stands. It is a result of these actual words of Paul that I have come to the conclusion that he is dangerously and unrealistically isolationist, regardless of how he an his supporters try to nuance it with other labels.

When one applies for a job, the resume (unscrutinized, unchallenged, and carefully crafted) just gets your foot in the door. It is the interview that gets you the job. Paul repeatedly fails the interview when it comes to foreign policy. At least IMO. You may find differently.

So, your answer is no. Just a thought, if you had read Obama's book, it turns out that he was honest as to his feelings and intentions as a man.

I am reading "Liberty Defined" by Mr. Paul right now. In it he really makes some very strong arguments for his stances and he generally lines up with my though processes in most things and I can see his point in areas we disagree. Vote for him? I think back to the last election where I was presented (by whom I do not know) two very weak and flawed men to choose from to be the President of our Republic. One was a Marxist and the other was a socialist republican. Some choice, huh?
 

eye95

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Thank for the rationality.

Terrorism is real. We ignore it at our peril. It is immature political thought to believe that, if we just absent ourselves from the Middle East, Islamists will leave us alone. They won't. No doubt there are many Arabs who would react positively to our being gone from the region. However, they are not the ones we really need to worry about.

Israel is the only reliable ally in that part of the world. Mutual defense alliances are reasonable. We cannot survive unless other nations are willing to help us protect ourselves, as we would help them protect themselves. When we abandon some allies, all of our allies become less reliable partners.

We have accomplished what we set out to accomplish in Iran and Afghanistan. More (not perfectly) responsible governments are in place. Now is the time to leave--with some words of caution left behind: If we ever feel threatened again, we will return and do the job again.

We send way too much money to nations that do not support us in return. We should turn the tap way down--not off completely. Foreign aid serves two necessary purposes: It aids nations in need of emergency help. It helps nations that would mutually defend us. Trying to buy the love of the world before they have demonstrated a willingness to give it is silly. That is international welfare. Any support we give should be either earned or else warranted due to disaster.

It is reasonable to work against nations like Iran getting nukes. These people do not think like we do. Islamists have already demonstrated a willingness to die in order to terrorize and kill infidels. Iran will not hesitate to turn nukes over to terrorists, regardless of the consequences to their nation. Again, they do not think like we do. When we were in the Cold War, the Russians could be counted on to act in their self-preservation interests. Not so for extremist Islamists. The threat of retaliation will not deter them.

The UN is a useless pile of fetid waste. It is unnecessary to our constructive international engagement. Why we provide the lion's share of its support and allow it on our territory is beyond me. It serves mainly as a soapbox for America-haters. The way they feel about us is reminiscent of how the "unfortunate" in America feel about those who have worked for success and achieved it.

The gold standard is a silly bit of rigidity that is reminiscent of the Einstein-deniers who tried to apply a grid to the universe instead of recognizing that bits of reality float against other bits of reality in a relativistic way. Commodities float against each other in a relativistic way. By introducing a commodity that represents the productivity of an economy provides a buffer commodity between other commodities that fluctuate wildly against each other without claiming that any one commodity is a clock or a ruler against which all other commodities are to be measured.

If Paul is elected and succeeds in his isolationist policies and restoring the gold standard, I believe that the result will be war within our border (that we otherwise could have prevented) or economic strangulation due to "gridifying" the economy--or both. (The only reason that we wouldn't get both would be if one of the two were so destructive as to make the other moot.)

Again, thanks for the rationality. It is so refreshing to share ideas with someone genuinely interested in hearing and discussing them.
 

PracticalTactical

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You may disagree with this assessment of your argument, but here is how I see what you are saying:

Romney is not as bad as Obama. Therefore, people will be less worried about what he would do. As a result, he would be able to get some noxious stuff through. Therefore, he is worse than Obama. So the reason Romney is worse is because he is not as bad??

Um. No. By that logic, anyone who is not as bad as Obama, but is not perfect (read: anyone other than Paul) is worse than Obama.

However, I am not surprised. That is typical paulbot thinking. Paul is perfect. All others fall short of the glory of Paul and, therefore, are excreable.

I disagree with your assessment of the argument because it takes two half-sentences out of context and then attempts to tell me what I meant by those half sentences. It's a great straw man tactic, but I'm not falling into the trap.

Perry and the others are not dangerous in the way Romney is, because they doesn't go around saying stuff like:
"I'm a hunter and believe in Second Amendment rights, but I also believe that assault weapons are not needed in the public population." http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/Politics/story?id=2885156&page=8

Even with a democrat house and senate, Obama couldn't even get close to passing a new AWB. But Romney? He just might go for it and the Republican fan base would accept it because it's not Obama doing it.

But you know what I meant and are just looking to derail my argument by substituting a more unreasonable one for it and attacking that.

I don't think Paul is perfect. He is not some Messiah figure to me. But, I think he's better than the others with the possible exception of Governor Johnson (my former governor, who did a damn good job in office).

I could vote for Perry. He's not as good as Paul in my opinion, but I could with a good conscience vote for him because I think he'd be less harmful than Obama if elected. I might be able to vote for Bachmann....but I'd have to think long and hard first.

People like Romney, Giuliani and other yankee RINOs I will not even consider for reasons explained previously.

So, NO, Eye95, I'm not some unreasonable "It's Paul or nothing" person. I think that would be insane.

But, I think the "Anything but Obama" approach to voting is equally insane, because there are worse things out there than Obama that we could vote for.
 

PracticalTactical

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Thank for the rationality.

Terrorism is real. We ignore it at our peril. It is immature political thought to believe that, if we just absent ourselves from the Middle East, Islamists will leave us alone. They won't. No doubt there are many Arabs who would react positively to our being gone from the region. However, they are not the ones we really need to worry about.

Israel is the only reliable ally in that part of the world. Mutual defense alliances are reasonable. We cannot survive unless other nations are willing to help us protect ourselves, as we would help them protect themselves. When we abandon some allies, all of our allies become less reliable partners.

We have accomplished what we set out to accomplish in Iran and Afghanistan. More (not perfectly) responsible governments are in place. Now is the time to leave--with some words of caution left behind: If we ever feel threatened again, we will return and do the job again.

We send way too much money to nations that do not support us in return. We should turn the tap way down--not off completely. Foreign aid serves two necessary purposes: It aids nations in need of emergency help. It helps nations that would mutually defend us. Trying to buy the love of the world before they have demonstrated a willingness to give it is silly. That is international welfare. Any support we give should be either earned or else warranted due to disaster.

It is reasonable to work against nations like Iran getting nukes. These people do not think like we do. Islamists have already demonstrated a willingness to die in order to terrorize and kill infidels. Iran will not hesitate to turn nukes over to terrorists, regardless of the consequences to their nation. Again, they do not think like we do. When we were in the Cold War, the Russians could be counted on to act in their self-preservation interests. Not so for extremist Islamists. The threat of retaliation will not deter them.

The UN is a useless pile of fetid waste. It is unnecessary to our constructive international engagement. Why we provide the lion's share of its support and allow it on our territory is beyond me. It serves mainly as a soapbox for America-haters. The way they feel about us is reminiscent of how the "unfortunate" in America feel about those who have worked for success and achieved it.

The gold standard is a silly bit of rigidity that is reminiscent of the Einstein-deniers who tried to apply a grid to the universe instead of recognizing that bits of reality float against other bits of reality in a relativistic way. Commodities float against each other in a relativistic way. By introducing a commodity that represents the productivity of an economy provides a buffer commodity between other commodities that fluctuate wildly against each other without claiming that any one commodity is a clock or a ruler against which all other commodities are to be measured.

If Paul is elected and succeeds in his isolationist policies and restoring the gold standard, I believe that the result will be war within our border (that we otherwise could have prevented) or economic strangulation due to "gridifying" the economy--or both. (The only reason that we wouldn't get both would be if one of the two were so destructive as to make the other moot.)

Again, thanks for the rationality. It is so refreshing to share ideas with someone genuinely interested in hearing and discussing them.

Paul doesn't espouse any of the crap you are arguing against.

He doesn't argue for complete disengagement with the rest of the world and a complete lack of military use around the world, he just thinks there's far too much of it going on right now and thinks it should be cut back to within constitutional limits. He also supports the use of retro-innovative ideas like issuing letters of marque and reprisal to use force against enemies in a much more cost-effective manner.

He doesn't think foreign aid should be cut completely, he just thinks government shouldn't be doing it. Feel free to remit a monthly check to the Israeli government if you feel they need funds.

Paul says to get the hell out of the UN, just like you do.

Paul doesn't support imposing market rigidity through the gold standard. He supports repealing the legal tender laws and allowing the market to supply currencies that compete with each other. If gold proves to be too rigid with it's 3-5% inflation rate (they do keep digging it out of the ground), then other currencies will fill the void. That's the key--let the market decide what to use as a medium of exchange instead of instituting a government monopoly.

Do you believe in free markets or not?
 

eye95

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I leave it to folks to read your post and see for themselves that you started with a premise that Romney was not as bad as Obama, went through some seemingly logical wrangling, and concluded with a statement mutually exclusive with the starting premise, to wit: Romney is worse than Obama.

Such, under rules of logic, is an impossibility.

Moving on.
 

PracticalTactical

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I leave it to folks to read your post and see for themselves that you started with a premise that Romney was not as bad as Obama, went through some seemingly logical wrangling, and concluded with a statement mutually exclusive with the starting premise, to wit: Romney is worse than Obama.

Such, under rules of logic, is an impossibility.

Moving on.

Let me put it more simply: alone he isn't as bad but external conditions (Republicans who refuse to stand up to other Republicans) cause him to be more dangerous to the country, making him worse.

I don't know how else to explain it more concisely and simply.

It leads me to believe you'd rather feign confusion and blame your lack of understanding on me than construct a logical refutation of my argument.
 

PrayingForWar

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Let me put it more simply: alone he isn't as bad but external conditions (Republicans who refuse to stand up to other Republicans) cause him to be more dangerous to the country, making him worse.

I don't know how else to explain it more concisely and simply.

It leads me to believe you'd rather feign confusion and blame your lack of understanding on me than construct a logical refutation of my argument.


Public Function Test(Number1)
If Number1 > 10 Then
Test = ""
Else: Test = Number1
End If
End Function


There.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Messages
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Whatcom County
Dishonesty is not levity. At least, not for the honest at heart.

Moving on from your bit of dishonesty.

And yet you continue to be intellectually dishonest. Using demagoguery and misapply words over and over again. Just because you say something over and over again does not make it true.

And it is obvious you haven't read any of Ron Paul's writings or even paid attention to what he says without being prejudiced already. Because what you spout about Ron Paul is utter nonsense.

Also what you advocate is against what the founders believed in and will continually put us in dangerous positions in the world. Our government shouldn't be in the welfare business at home or amongst the nations.

But these words will fall on deaf ears because I don't agree with your statist/authoritarian viewpoint you put me on ignore. Oh yea and that was in a thread were you had several of your statements deleted for personal attacks.
 

PrayingForWar

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And yet you continue to be intellectually dishonest. Using demagoguery and misapply words over and over again. Just because you say something over and over again does not make it true.

And it is obvious you haven't read any of Ron Paul's writings or even paid attention to what he says without being prejudiced already. Because what you spout about Ron Paul is utter nonsense.

Also what you advocate is against what the founders believed in and will continually put us in dangerous positions in the world. Our government shouldn't be in the welfare business at home or amongst the nations.

But these words will fall on deaf ears because I don't agree with your statist/authoritarian viewpoint you put me on ignore. Oh yea and that was in a thread were you had several of your statements deleted for personal attacks.

I think it's clear eye has read and heard plenty of things RP has written and said. I have too. What eye is saying in response to that is a valid concern IMO, since for the most part I share that oppinion. As a supporter of many things RP promotes I understand he can be wrong sometimes. Some of the founders were wrong on some issues too. They lived well before the concept of ICBMs or populations of infantry numbering in the millions with automatic rifles capable of precision hits.

I agree that the gov't shouldn't be involved in welfare at any level, however we find ourselves in a position due to the policies of men who died 60 years ago, that believed they were promoting the ideas of men who died 100 years before they were born. It would be more dangerous to all the inhabitants of the earth if we neglected to perform some of the functions of security the world has depended on us to perform.
 

Freedom First

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Thank for the rationality.

Terrorism is real. We ignore it at our peril. It is immature political thought to believe that, if we just absent ourselves from the Middle East, Islamists will leave us alone. They won't. No doubt there are many Arabs who would react positively to our being gone from the region. However, they are not the ones we really need to worry about.

Israel is the only reliable ally in that part of the world. Mutual defense alliances are reasonable. We cannot survive unless other nations are willing to help us protect ourselves, as we would help them protect themselves. When we abandon some allies, all of our allies become less reliable partners.

We have accomplished what we set out to accomplish in Iran and Afghanistan. More (not perfectly) responsible governments are in place. Now is the time to leave--with some words of caution left behind: If we ever feel threatened again, we will return and do the job again.

We send way too much money to nations that do not support us in return. We should turn the tap way down--not off completely. Foreign aid serves two necessary purposes: It aids nations in need of emergency help. It helps nations that would mutually defend us. Trying to buy the love of the world before they have demonstrated a willingness to give it is silly. That is international welfare. Any support we give should be either earned or else warranted due to disaster.

It is reasonable to work against nations like Iran getting nukes. These people do not think like we do. Islamists have already demonstrated a willingness to die in order to terrorize and kill infidels. Iran will not hesitate to turn nukes over to terrorists, regardless of the consequences to their nation. Again, they do not think like we do. When we were in the Cold War, the Russians could be counted on to act in their self-preservation interests. Not so for extremist Islamists. The threat of retaliation will not deter them.

The UN is a useless pile of fetid waste. It is unnecessary to our constructive international engagement. Why we provide the lion's share of its support and allow it on our territory is beyond me. It serves mainly as a soapbox for America-haters. The way they feel about us is reminiscent of how the "unfortunate" in America feel about those who have worked for success and achieved it.

The gold standard is a silly bit of rigidity that is reminiscent of the Einstein-deniers who tried to apply a grid to the universe instead of recognizing that bits of reality float against other bits of reality in a relativistic way. Commodities float against each other in a relativistic way. By introducing a commodity that represents the productivity of an economy provides a buffer commodity between other commodities that fluctuate wildly against each other without claiming that any one commodity is a clock or a ruler against which all other commodities are to be measured.

If Paul is elected and succeeds in his isolationist policies and restoring the gold standard, I believe that the result will be war within our border (that we otherwise could have prevented) or economic strangulation due to "gridifying" the economy--or both. (The only reason that we wouldn't get both would be if one of the two were so destructive as to make the other moot.)

Again, thanks for the rationality. It is so refreshing to share ideas with someone genuinely interested in hearing and discussing them.

I just hit the above in order... Just read paragraph for paragraph.

No worries. I will occasionally take a shot when I perceive someone is being dumb, i.e. picking the low hanging fruit, but generally I prefer a discussion.

They also will not leave us alone if we invade every nation with a Muslim majority. Somewhere between ignoring the issue of Muslim terrorism and attacking sovereign nations is an appropriate response. Letters of Marque?

I question whether or not the US has been a reliable “ally” to Israel. We meddle in their internal policies with a free hand. I regularly listen to Israel National Radio online and it presents an interesting perspective to the events of the day.

As a man who values the Constitution, maybe you can answer this, “When does the Constitution assign our role as Americans to be the changers or shapers other nations into our own image? “We must make the world safe for democracy.” Woodrow Wilson… Based on the Framers thoughts, an immoral people cannot rule themselves. I think this has been played out in history even here in America. “(The constitution will function properly) until the People become corrupted and require despotic government.” Ben Franklin, On the faults of the constitution. We will not be able to force a functional government upon a backward, immoral and lawless place like Afganistan. So, why spend the lives, both ours and theirs?

I agree. It’s a waste of debt to support others with our children’s futures. When we are weaned off debt and are living within our means, as a nation, then we should look at supporting other, like minded nations, with increased trade, not gifts.

Dealing with nuclear proliferation is not an easy task. This is one of the few instances where I believe that a pre-emptive strategy is appropriate. As a man who understands the threat to our families posed by a single EMP nuke aimed against our home, I would stop at nothing to destroy any threat of that attack.

The purpose of the UN cannot be truly described without a good understanding of central banking. Today it is functioning as initially designed but not according to our understanding of its purpose. One world under one government under one currency. “Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes her laws.” Mayer Amschel Rothschild The UN is the Holy Grail of the central banker.

If gold is so silly, then why is it so important in national relations and the functioning of the central banks? Why did FDR seize gold? On the other hand, I do see historically that a gold-less society can function. It has happened in the past. But there has always been some form of currency. When that non-gold currency was left alone to find its own place in the world, only the strong and most desirable survive. That leads us back to gold.

As in a civil war or an invasion? And honestly, are we not already undergoing an “economic strangulation”? Maybe you could expand a bit on this statement?

I would suggest that you do some personal investigation into the role of central banking in the function and dysfunction of our government today. Read up on the history of money and banking. Read Keynes and Mises (Rothbard). Then look at your government again and how it functions today as opposed to how it was designed.

“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.” Henry Ford
 

Freedom First

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Joined
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Messages
845
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Kennewick, Wa.
I agree that the gov't shouldn't be involved in welfare at any level, however we find ourselves in a position due to the policies of men who died 60 years ago, that believed they were promoting the ideas of men who died 100 years before they were born. It would be more dangerous to all the inhabitants of the earth if we neglected to perform some of the functions of security the world has depended on us to perform.

Which men? Framers or Marx? ;)
 
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