Unfortunatly, yes. He can hold the gun for officer safety and of course if he holds it he needs to run the numbers. There has been a lot of discussion about this with every idea between my locking holster to taping over the numbers.In our state, during a routine traffic stop, can an officer take your gun and run its serial number when he does not have RAS or PC to do this?
Thanks, Peter, though I was hoping such was not the case.Unfortunatly, yes. He can hold the gun for officer safety and of course if he holds it he needs to run the numbers. There has been a lot of discussion about this with every idea between my locking holster to taping over the numbers.
Now that would be interesting.This is where it gets utterly ridiculous.
Statistically speaking, concealed permit holders (I believe the study was done in Florida) are less likely to commit a crime than police officers.
Therefore, it's a reasonable argument that a citizen is in more danger from the police officer's gun than the police officer is in danger from the driver's gun (if they happen to have a concealed permit of whatever flavor.)
Has anyone ever asked the LEO if they could hold HIS gun for THEIR safety during the stop?
All traced guns are called “crime guns” by ATF, regardless of involvement in a crime. ATF has defined “crime gun” to mean “any firearm that is illegally possessed, used in a crime, or suspected to have been used in a crime. An abandoned firearm may also be categorized as a crime gun if it is suspected it was used in a crime or illegally possessed.” Since any firearm “might” have been involved in a crime, ATF considers any firearm to be a “crime gun” or a “suspect gun” and any trace to be a “bona fide law enforcement investigation”. ATF sometimes track (or trace) every gun in a dealer’s records to see if any had ever been linked to a crime. ATF’s position is that gun tracing is voluntary for law enforcement jurisdictions; however, some agencies trace all recovered guns as a matter of policy or state law, while others trace guns only when needed for specific investigations, if at all. However, ATF urges law enforcement to trace every firearm under the “bona fide law enforcement investigation” rationale.
If they run the serial# then it is an infringement of your 4A rights. What is their probably cause, the belief the gun is stolen, based on what? And now they have the make/model/serial of your gun documented.In any state as long as the cops claim "officer safety", including NC.
How would the serial# of a gun indicate it had been used in a crime? It would locate stolen guns, now ask yourself how many people with carry permits are going to have a stolen gun?Theoretically, they may 'hold it for Officer safety' but searching for the serial number is a violation of the 4th. The workaround for that is if the serial number is observed by plain view. As most people not running a light on a Glock have the serial number open to 'plain view'.
It's my understanding that any gun serial number called in is because there's the suspicion that it may have been used in a crime. I've also run across the following quote in several places that any firearm traced is now a "crime gun" according to the ATF:
It doesn't but "Crime Gun" is like "Assault Pistol"... it's a name that evokes a particular emotion and in this case it's the ATF that is perpetrating the lie. The serial number wouldn't indicate that it had been used in a crime, but that it was the subject of a crime - weapons theft.How would the serial# of a gun indicate it had been used in a crime? It would locate stolen guns, now ask yourself how many people with carry permits are going to have a stolen gun?
The argument is that "They" are building a database.How would the serial# of a gun indicate it had been used in a crime? It would locate stolen guns, now ask yourself how many people with carry permits are going to have a stolen gun?
It depends on the definition of "practical terms". To the person involved, who is carrying lawfully and has the serial number of his property added to a 'crime gun' database, not a whole lot.Now tell me in practical terms why it matters.
" which are believed to have been used in the commission of a crime". - should not be struck. Move to amend or vote NOB. The Superintendent shall establish [SUB]and maintain[/SUB] [SUP]a procedure[/SUP] within the Department of State Police [SUB]a Criminal Firearms Clearinghouse as a central repository of[/SUB] [SUP]to obtain[/SUP] information regarding all firearms seized, forfeited, found, or otherwise coming into the possession of any state or local law-enforcement agency of the Commonwealth [SUB]which are believed to have been used in the commission of a crime[/SUB]. [SUP]All law-enforcement agencies of the Commonwealth and of political subdivisions of the Commonwealth shall share with other Virginia law-enforcement agencies all information regarding firearms seized, forfeited, found, or otherwise coming into their possession that are believed to have been used in the commission of a crime and shall enter such information into a firearms tracing system maintained by the U.S. Department of Justice[/SUP]. The Superintendent shall adopt and promulgate regulations prescribing the form method for reporting this information and the time and manner of submission of the [SUB]form[/SUB] [SUP]information to a firearms tracing system maintained by the U.S. Department of Justice.[/SUP]
[SUB]In addition to any other information which the Superintendent may require, the form shall require (i) the serial number or other identifying information on the firearm, if available, (ii) a brief description of the circumstances under which the firearm came into the possession of the law-enforcement agency, including the crime which was or may have been committed with the firearm, (iii) the name of or other identifying information on the person from whom the firearm was taken, (iv) the original place of sale and, if known, the chain of possession of the firearm, and (v) the disposition of the firearm.[/SUB]
My concern is that without that protective phrase in place, that Law Enforcement will make it a higher priority to "come into possession" of our firearms more often, solely for the purpose of running their serial numbers.
There have been many anecdotal discussions online over the years of traffic stops where some officers disarm people in the vehicle (CHP holders, in these cases) under the auspices of officer safety, but in reality the goal was to run a check on the firearm's serial number.
Disarming in a vehicle raises opportunities for mishaps and misunderstandings, especially in the presence of an officer. It'd be safer if the licensed carrier were allowed to just leave the firearm alone during the stop.
Stories of officers emptying a revolver, leaving the rounds on the road; returning a gun scratched; or telling the driver to leave their firearm on the roof of the car until the officer leaves are some of the nightmare stories told. All of these seemed to be abuses coupled with the desire for the officer looking for an opportunity to run the serial number of the firearm.
I think that removing that phrase, "which are believed to have been used in the commission of a crime", will enable more officers to find an excuse to put more of our firearms into their hands just for the sake of running the serial number.
Having read of those prior abuses, that proposed change leapt out at me as a weakening of our protections against unwarranted and unreasonable searches and seizures in principal, while practically inviting way too much handling of firearms in a civilian-officer encounter instead of leaving things be.
If they have a firearm that they suspect being involved in a crime, then of course, run the number; but if they don't have suspicion, then they shouldn't be fishing.
"Yes you ARE required by law to surrender your firearm."Never discuss your firearm. AT MOST say 'am I required to reply (to this question)', then ask for a Sergeant to be brought to the scene for clarification and again, inquire 'am I required by law to do other than produce a permit and ID?'. Ask what law. Record everything. Then if they demand, follow the demand and file suit after the fact.
There are lots of pre-1968 guns without serial numbers.In our state, during a routine traffic stop, can an officer take your gun and run its serial number when he does not have RAS or PC to do this?