Question: Traffic stops and running the numbers

[Grapeshot]

The bold is a deflection, a excuse provided to those, by who knows, who refuse to follow the "pictures" that come with the car seat that show how to properly install the car seat.

If the number of misoperations by consumers (incorrectly installed car seats) of a particular gizmo is the benchmark, then guns don't really need holsters to be carried safely. If the car seat design was such as to reverse that 75% number most folks would buy the cheap Chicom knockoff, the one difficult to install properly, due to the cost of the well designed, easy to install, gizmo and take their chances...it's the American way.

Been to Walmart lately? :uhoh:

 

[F350]

Has there been any resolution to the debate on whether covering a S/N with tape rises to violation of Federal law regarding defacement?

Opinions seem to be split on that.

TFred

ETA: Referenced law:

27 CFR 478.34 - Removed, obliterated, or altered serial number.

§ 478.34 Removed, obliterated, or altered serial number.
No person shall knowingly transport, ship, or receive in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered, or possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

[T.D. ATF-313, 56 FR 32508, July 17, 1991]

I sent an email to the ATF on the subject of covering SNs with tape; here it is, straight from the horse's as.... er mouth....

FIPB Regulatory Email inquiries <FIPB@atf.gov>
9/19/12


From: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 7:01 PM
To: FIPB Regulatory Email inquiries
Subject: Obscured serial number

Some buddies and I are having a rather heated discussion about this....

If I were to put a piece of black tape over the serial number of my CCW handgun (1911 style) would that constitute "obscuring" the serial number and be illegal? The serial number is in no way defaced, altered or removed, all you have to do to see the serial number is remove the tape. If this does constitute obscuring then isn't every S&W shipped with the large grips which cover the serial number on the butt illegal? There are a number of after market products that cover the serial number, would that be illegal? If not but the tape is what is the difference?

Thank You

F350



to me
This is in response to your email to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). In your email, you wanted to know if covering a serial number of a firearm with tape be constituted as obscuring.

Under Federal law, it shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed,
obliterated, or altered, or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported
in interstate or foreign commerce.

Merely, attaching black tape to a firearms serial number does not constitute a violation of Federal law. (Bolding mine)

Should you have additional questions, please contact your local ATF office. A listing of ATF office phone numbers can be found at: http://www.atf.gov/field.



Regards,

Firearms Industry Programs Branch, ATF

 

[OC for ME]

I am comforted in the knowledge that every local cop knows what the BATF&E knows...re fed law.

 

[peter nap]

Thanks F350...unfortunatly Virginia has its own serial number statute and getting an answer isn't as easy.

 

[utbagpiper]

The whole purpose of the gun is too keep them from getting access to the flight crew. If they overpower the flight crew the passengers are pretty much screwed whether they get the guns or not.

Fully agreed. The obvious reason (obvious to me at least) for the padlock is the render the gun unusable should someone manage to get it from the pilot in the airport, inside the sterile area. Presumably, it is possible (however improbable) for someone to get a gun from a pilot and get it onto a departing aircraft before anyone notices the pilot is missing or missing his gun.

I believe (as I think you do) that the flight crew should simply wear their guns in a retention holster on body. The sterile area of most airports have no shortage of cops carrying their guns this way and we haven't had anyone manage to take a gun off one of them.

A locked case of some sort might be appropriate for transport through the sterile area if a pilot doesn't want the gun on body for some reason. But really, they ought to have a proper on-body carry method and use it. They ought to have nationwide legal ability to carry that way at least between the airport and their hotels regardless of local laws.

But then, so should we all.

... but then we are talking about the feds.

That about sums it up.

Charles

 

[utbagpiper]

The bold is a deflection, a excuse provided to those, by who knows, who refuse to follow the "pictures" that come with the car seat that show how to properly install the car seat.

No. It is reality. The very fact that we have to provide pictorial instructions rather than prose should tell you something about the level of intelligence of the general population. Or perhaps more accurately, where they are willing to spend their time and energy. Methinks smartphones are way more complex than getting a car seat installed properly and most everyone seems willing to spend the time needed to figure out how to run their smartphones.

But whatever the cause--be it ignorance, laziness, lack of interest, or whatever else--if 75% (or whatever the actual fairly high percentage is) of your targeted market can't or won't figure out how to use your product safely and properly, then as a design engineer you have failed from the human factors engineering perspective.

Ask most engineers and we'll tell you the old HP calculators were the best ever made. Based on the engineer's age, he might prefer the 48 series, the 29 series, the 28 series, etc. But most engineers loved the HPs with the reverse polish notation. But most non-engineers hated RPN and the notion of a stack, found it inexplicably complicated, and hated them. Which was ok, it reduced the number of people interested in stealing my HP.

Point is, a good engineer recognizes his target audience and designs for them and their abilities.

If the number of misoperations by consumers (incorrectly installed car seats) of a particular gizmo is the benchmark, then guns don't really need holsters to be carried safely.

Think of it as incorrect use multiplied by the damage done when used incorrectly. But yes, I expect that a lot of gun owners could actually carry their guns for a very long time without a holster without having any NDs. Many would compensate by carrying an empty chamber. Others would limit themselves to guns with manual, external safeties.

But notice WalkingWolf's post with the history on how holster designs have been changed over the years to reduce NDs on revolvers from getting a finger inside the trigger guard while re-holstering. Recall that modern handguns are designed to be drop safe. No need for that if users were 100% sure never to drop a loaded gun.

I believe the FAA flight deck officer holster is a fundamentally poor design. Can it be used safely? Sure if the user never makes a mistake. But when it comes to firearms, holsters and the guns themselves should be designed to provide some margin of safety for those times when the user is not 100% correct. Guns will get dropped. Sometimes a gun won't get seated fully in a holster. A proper, safe design, accounts for that.

That isn't deflection. That is decent engineering.

If the car seat design was such as to reverse that 75% number most folks would buy the cheap Chicom knockoff, the one difficult to install properly, due to the cost of the well designed, easy to install, gizmo and take their chances...it's the American way.

No, what happened is the do-gooders pushed for new federal regulations to make it easier to install car seats. So now, rather than using seat belts in install car seats, new cars are designed to fastening points built into all back seats. I don't how much cost these might add to the price of a new car. Like everything else, probably very little of themselves, but in aggregate we are paying a fair bit more for a lot of little features than many of us don't need nor want. Depending on the car and how you sit/lie in the seat, sometimes these connection points will dig into you.

Charles

 

[utbagpiper]

And so long as you studied and/or work(ed) in the sciences or engineering, rather than in some liberal arts major, you'll have helped make my point.

Charles

 

[Grapeshot]

If you please, gentlemen, back on topic please. Calculators are not within the terms of this thread, nor for the forum generally.

 

[Repeater]

Exactly right. KYBMS. You are required to produce two physical objects when the cop demands to see your CHP; that doesn't require any discussion. In Virginia, no one can be compelled to talk to anyone he doesn't wish to speak with, including cops. And it doesn't require 5th Amendment privilege against self-incrimination. "I prefer not to.", in the immortal words of Bartleby the Scrivener will be sufficient. "Thank you, Officer, but I prefer not to chat." Or hand them my "letter to law enforcement".

Dan, a Florida lawyer, Warren Redlich, has been gaining a lot of publicity with his advice to go Silent at any DUI checkpoint.

Could his advice be adapted for Virginia, pertinent to this thread, so motorists don't have to get out or say anything regarding weapons? One potential problem is that the Virginia Uniform Summons does in fact require your written promise to appear in court in order to be released from continued detention.

I can see from various reports around the country the MADD people and LEO-statists do NOT like his advice at all.

Here is a flyer drafted by a St. Louis attorney:

 

[TFred]

Thanks F350...unfortunatly Virginia has its own serial number statute and getting an answer isn't as easy.

I forgot that Virginia had it's own code. Since the feds have one, I wonder why Virginia has one? Looks like Virginia's was written in 1975, maybe before the Feds?

At some point in the future, when we get a friendly AG, it would be a good question to officially ask. I think it would be cool to make and sell opaque tape that is "serial number sized" with the text, "Where's Your Warrant?" printed on it!

TFred

§ 18.2-311.1. Removing, altering, etc., serial number or other identification on firearm.

Any person, firm, association or corporation who or which intentionally removes, defaces, alters, changes, destroys or obliterates in any manner or way or who or which causes to be removed, defaced, altered, changed, destroyed or obliterated in any manner or way the name of the maker, model, manufacturer's or serial number, or any other mark or identification on any pistol, shotgun, rifle, machine gun or any other firearm shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

 

[skidmark]

Putting tape over the serial number does not remove, deface, alter, change, destroy or obliterate it in any manner or way. But I'd hate to have to go to court to have that point accepted.

Something Gorilla Tape-ish, about 1/8 inch wide, with a 2-line imprint "Where's your warrant, copper?" about 1/2 inch long. Some sort of release paper to keep the tape from sticking to itself. Sell it by the foot at gun shows.

stay safe.

 

[Maverick9]

Tamper proof tape is nice, but you'd still have to prove that LE personnel removed it. They could just say 'it said "opened"' when we seized it.

 

[mobeewan]

I thought about using a blank stainless steel plate attached with 2 counter sunk screws needing a special screwdriver and using Loctite, or maybe even an engraved one stating "where's your warrant". The would only hide the number and can still be removable but not by an LEO on the side of the road. Maybe even a custom rail mount with a base that extends to cover the SN. I've got a gunsmith friend with a lathe and milling machine that I'm sure I could get to do it for me.

 

[Maverick9]

I thought about using a blank stainless steel plate attached with 2 counter sunk screws needing a special screwdriver and using Loctite, or maybe even an engraved one stating "where's your warrant". The would only hide the number and can still be removable but not by an LEO on the side of the road. Maybe even a custom rail mount with a base that extends to cover the SN. I've got a gunsmith friend with a lathe and milling machine that I'm sure I could get to do it for me.

You don't want to do that. Just take a picture with your cellphone before and after any seizure (which is gonna be a once-in-a-lifetime event anyway).

Get a cabled gun-safe with a combination lock and shut it if stopped. Get the 'pop-out' type so you wouldn't have to be fumbling for it in the 1 in 10M chance you'd need to shoot while driving; lol.

 

[wrearick]

Question came up and the search feature actually led me to a relevant thread! Reading through everything, I had a thought that I am going to implement but want to run by the experienced folks here as a sanity check. I have several heavy duty, lockable bank deposit bags from my days as a restaurant manager when we shifted banks we were using. I normally carry one in my range bag but I think I will keep one in my primary vehicle. If pulled over and I was to place my weapon in the bag and lock it prior to pulling to the side of the road and then following USERs advice on not discussing the topic of firearms would that protect me from the officer "demanding" to know what was in the bag or seizing the bag? (the bank that issued the bag was bought out 20 years ago and no longer operates under the name stitched on the side of the bag so I don't think he could claim I was possibly stopped shortly after robbing the bank and the bag in plain view raised suspicion) I would drop the key for the bag into my center console and not have it on my person.

 

[WalkingWolf]

Just my opinion, but what is in the locked bag is none of their business. Unless they want to get a warrant.

 

[wrearick]

Thank you, I believe the same.

 

[davidmcbeth]

Just my opinion, but what is in the locked bag is none of their business. Unless they want to get a warrant.

WW's right. My response to a speeding ticket stop to the query is "well, it aint more evidence of speeding, is it?"

 

[user]

Putting tape over the serial number does not remove, deface, alter, change, destroy or obliterate it in any manner or way. But I'd hate to have to go to court to have that point accepted.

Something Gorilla Tape-ish, about 1/8 inch wide, with a 2-line imprint "Where's your warrant, copper?" about 1/2 inch long. Some sort of release paper to keep the tape from sticking to itself. Sell it by the foot at gun shows.

stay safe.

I think the average Va. judge would have no trouble "interpreting" the word, "deface" to include "covering up with tape". I'm thinking here, of the "interpretation" of similar words in the context of criminal prosecutions for destruction of property.

 

[user]

Question came up and the search feature actually led me to a relevant thread! Reading through everything, I had a thought that I am going to implement but want to run by the experienced folks here as a sanity check. I have several heavy duty, lockable bank deposit bags from my days as a restaurant manager when we shifted banks we were using. I normally carry one in my range bag but I think I will keep one in my primary vehicle. If pulled over and I was to place my weapon in the bag and lock it prior to pulling to the side of the road and then following USERs advice on not discussing the topic of firearms would that protect me from the officer "demanding" to know what was in the bag or seizing the bag? (the bank that issued the bag was bought out 20 years ago and no longer operates under the name stitched on the side of the bag so I don't think he could claim I was possibly stopped shortly after robbing the bank and the bag in plain view raised suspicion) I would drop the key for the bag into my center console and not have it on my person.

Yes, though the cop could keep you on the side of the road until he got a warrant, on the assumption that the bag represented stolen property. Or, if there's wording on the bag saying it's the property of XYZ Bank, and you can't show evidence of any relationship with that bank that would justify possession of the bag, that's prima facie grounds for an arrest on a charge of petty larceny. Get rid of the bags and go buy a small steel tool box at the hardware store. Having a gun secured in a closed container within the vehicle is not "carrying a concealed weapon", by the way.