Possible Endings to this tale

[Sheriff]

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What will you do when the time arises? A mental exercise and preparedness exercise so to speak. Read below, place yourself there, discuss the various waysthis event might have ended. This is a situationan open carry or concealed carry person can face in a heartbeat. What would you have done? What was done right? What was done wrong? Don't think this can happen to you? Trust me, think again!

Robber fatally shot in Miami Burger King holdup

A robbery at a Burger King in Miami's Upper East Side neighborhood left one person dead and another seriously injured.

An afternoon shootout at a busy Burger King restaurant in Miami left a potential robber dead and the customer who shot him seriously wounded.

The bloody event unfolded about 4 p.m. Tuesday at the restaurant at Northeast 54th Street and Biscayne Boulevard. It was a time, employees said, when it is usually crowded with schoolchildren and people getting out of work early.

The robber entered wearing a ski mask. He approached a clerk, showed his gun and demanded money, said Miami police spokesman Jeff Giordano.

A customer eyed him and the two started arguing. The customer had a concealed-weapons permit and his gun -- and the two exchanged gunfire.

The robber crumpled to the floor and was pronounced dead at the scene.

The customer, with several gunshot wounds, was in serious but stable condition at Jackson Memorial Hospital's Ryder Trauma Center.

Officers divided witnesses into several groups outside the restaurant to gather information about the incident. Employees waiting to start their shift called friends and family members on their cellphones to pass the time because they were not allowed through the police tape.

''I just hope all my people are OK inside,'' said Cynthia Thomas, who has worked at the Burger King for five years. ``It is scary.''

Around them, drivers on busy Biscayne Boulevard gawked at the scene.

The area is a prime destination for residents in the Upper East Side neighborhood -- featuring Soyka's restaurant, Sushi Siam and Andiamo Pizza.

 

[uncle jed]

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really until one is faced with that situation it is hard to say what would happen. i would like to think i would be able to maintain control enough to do what needed to be done and not get myself or anybody else injured or killed, but things happen no matter what preparations you take.

 

[Sheriff]

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OK, my turn I suppose. I would have done one of two things, don't know which until I am faced with the actual situation in real life, and the surroundings:

1- Ignore him and look away when he proceeded to argue with me. There's nothing wrong or cowardly about retreating if nobody has been hurt yet.

or

2- Distraction is your friend.... look behind him and pretend like I am talking to somebody who is trying to sneak up on him, "back off fellow, he's got a gun!". Once he is distracted and turns around, you have that extra few seconds to get the jump on him.

 

[Bebop]

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This is a very hard question to answer partially due to the fact that details are missing from the story probably due to the fact that surveillance video and police reports haven't been released to the public yet. Endless possibilities are open to discussion here which include but are not limited to. If you were OC'ing would he have seen the gun and walked away? If he didn't pay attention to you OC'ing, was he making threats on people's lives? Where you close enough to hit the target, not all the way across the restraint? Where there people behind the BG that could have been hit by a stray bullet? Are there people behind you that could be hit by his stray bullets? Why did the CCW holder argue with the BG why did he just not draw and order him on the ground? and on and on.



I can only assume what I would do under that situation and that is probably not accurate because I am not all hopped up on adrenalin. I will never know what I would do until I was in that situation and I hope and pray like everyone on here that I never end up in that kind of situation. It is good to hear that as of that story being written the BG is dead and the CCW holder is alive, in the hospital yes, but better than in a freezer.



However to finally answer part of your question based on how I am thinking the situation happened I would say that if I was close enough I would draw and order him to put the weapon down and get on the ground and keep him there at gun point until the LEO's arrived. If that turned south I would react as needed.

 

[compmanio365]

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Why did this guy go right up to him when he knew he had a gun and start arguing with him? If the guy comes in the store with a ski mask, I'm alert and ready for something bad to happen. If he pulls a gun, it's all over; find the best cover possible and prepare to return fire.

This guy did a real brave and heroic thing, but he wasn't using situational awareness to his advantage, and that's why he ended up in the hospital. Just my Monday morning quarterbacking at work here.....

 

[Sheriff]

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compmanio365 wrote:

Why did this guy go right up to him when he knew he had a gun and start arguing with him?

I can only assume the bandit entered and walked straight to the counter to rob the place. The customer was most likely already standing there waiting on his food. You know the routine... customer looks at him...bandit says "What the hell are you looking at, brave guy?" Then the ego kicked in as the customer perhaps tried to prove he was indeed a brave guy. Speculation on my part.....

 

[Walleye]

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I wouldn't have started arguing with him - once the weapon is displayed, he's already demonstrated intent to cause harm or death in my book. I'd look for a shot opportunity and a quick warning to him to drop the weapon and get down on the ground. After that point, if he does anything other than dropping his weapon and sucking pavement, I'm taking a shot.

While I do carry for personal protection, at the same time it would be wrong of me to sit idly by while someone is being threatened with bodily harm or death; especially if the act is occurring in front of my eyes.

 

[Carnivore]

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Most likely the area at the counter cleared almost immediately upon brandishing a weapon and the demand of give me all your money from someone in a ski mask, I belive I'da stepped back with the rest of the crowd, and shot the fella right in back of the head..



THE END!

And everyone lived happily ever after!!

 

[slowzx320]

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Thats definitely a hard question to answer, guess the only way to answer that is if it would happen to you.

ME... first thought is to make sure he hurts no one and if he doesn't get a good description, then if he does hurt someone then take action

second thought is to obviously take him down

 

[AWDstylez]

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Carnivore wrote:

Most likely the area at the counter cleared almost immediately upon brandishing a weapon and the demand of give me all your money from someone in a ski mask, I belive I'da stepped back with the rest of the crowd, and shot the fella right in back of the head..



THE END!

And everyone lived happily ever after!!

That's how it would happen in ideal land, but that's not reality.

There really isn't enough information about how this went down. Who started the argument?

IMO, the customer put a resturant full of people at risk. Smash and grab robbers are there to get money, not to rack up a body count. There's no way in hell I'd escalate a robbery into a shootout in the middle of a crowded Burger King, unless someone was in immediate danger. The guy walks in, shows a gun, demands money... give him the money, he leaves, situation over. Burger King has insurance for a reason. I just don't see the logic in risking everyone's lives over a few hundred bucks in the register.

Summary: if he isn't actually hurting anyone thenstep back with everyone else, let him take the money, get the best discription I canand let the cops hunt him down.

 

[Citizen]

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slowzx320 wrote:

Thats definitely a hard question to answer, guess the only way to answer that is if it would happen to you.

ME... first thought is to make sure he hurts no one and if he doesn't get a good description, then if he does hurt someone then take action

second thought is to obviously take him down

+1

I've given this a lot of thought already.

The armed citizen can ignite violence and initiate an event that results in the injury or death of otherswhere otherwise it might not haveoccurred.

My plan is to do much what Slowzx320 suggests. Observe. Only draw/shootif he shoots or tries to shoot.

I just can't see risking the life or maiming of another good person if I miss and hit an innocent, perforate the bad guy into an innocent, my miss gives the bad guy enough time to shoot and miss me into an innocent, startles him into shooting the cashier, or even if I hit him center mass but he's tough or drugged and gets off a couple shots into me or innocents.

To my thinking, at this point anyway, I may not be able to save the first person IF he starts shooting. But he is responsible for that death or injury, not me--this first victim being weighed against the possibility of death or injury in a gunfight amongst innocents. After the first shooting, I have to assume more will follow.Those I may be able to prevent and can take responsibility for preventing. Also, I imagine it will be obvious if he turns and runs for the door in headlong flight, negating the need to shoot even if he has shot the cashier.

Of course, on something this important, I welcome suggestions, other views, etc.

 

[Tomahawk]

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It seems strange to me that an "argument" developed. Was the customer trying to trash-talk the robber, Clint Eastwood style? Who knows. The article has not enough info.

 

[suntzu]

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Ok, so here are my thoughts, and I will address only what I think were the tactical issues. others have addressed the issue of not engaging the robber if all he was after was the money. I agree--BK has insurance for a reason--don't needlessly put the lives of other citizens in danger if it can be helped.



First the article does confirm that the robber was in an exposed position, because he was at the register demanding money--obvious I know.

What the article does not say is: The distance from the citizen to the robber, whether the individual had a clear line of sight to the robber, or were potential hostages in the way? What was the layout of the building, and where was the citizen in relationship to the cash register? What obstacles were in between the shooter and the armed robber? Were there customers or employees near enough to the robber that he could have used one as a hostage/human shield? Every Burger King is laid out somewhat different--at least in the BKs I have been in none have been the same.

it says the man started arguing with the robber--who on earth is going to argue with an armed individual intent on mayhem? he exposed himself--exposure of bodily appendages is very bad...it tends to get them shot off..

Any time I go into a restaurant I always sit in the farthest back corner that gives me a view of the exits/entrances, but also puts my back to the wall so that no one can get behind me. I try to pay attention to what is between me and the entrances, number of people, their positions in relationship to the door and myself, whether they are young or old, and so forth.

Personal opinion--cover is your friend, don't announce yourself until you are in a position to shoot and more importantly, are prepared to do so. Don't start a firefight in a restaurant unless it absolutely cannot be helped--as in a Virginia Tech type situation, because if you by accident shoot an innocent bystander you are almost certainly guaranteed a jail term, but also will be the subject of an expensive lawsuit. And by all means--don't engage in an argument with an armed robber.

my analysis is: The story leads me to believe, perhaps erroneously, that the citizen simply stood up, exposed himself, thought he could pull a Dirty Harry and tell him to go ahead and make his day...and he nearly got killed for it.

Bottom line--this guy blundered into something, started running his mouth, tried to show himself and started a firefight that could have gotten innocent bystanders wounded or killed.

IMO anyway.

 

[suntzu]

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Carnivore wrote:

Most likely the area at the counter cleared almost immediately upon brandishing a weapon and the demand of give me all your money from someone in a ski mask, I belive I'da stepped back with the rest of the crowd, and shot the fella right in back of the head..



THE END!

And everyone lived happily ever after!!

except for you because you would be on trial, facing a lengthy jail term and would be sued by the criminals family claiming you executed their dear son.

 

[suntzu]

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Walleye wrote:

I wouldn't have started arguing with him - once the weapon is displayed, he's already demonstrated intent to cause harm or death in my book. I'd look for a shot opportunity and a quick warning to him to drop the weapon and get down on the ground. After that point, if he does anything other than dropping his weapon and sucking pavement, I'm taking a shot.

While I do carry for personal protection, at the same time it would be wrong of me to sit idly by while someone is being threatened with bodily harm or death; especially if the act is occurring in front of my eyes.

and if you turn an initial robbery into a hostage situation?

there are just so many variables that go into this whole thing, and no two situations will turn out the same.

 

[NightOwl]

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If the customer couldn't back off and get a clear shot to drop the robber, discretion would have been the better part of valor. I'm not sure a gunfight in burger king is the best choice...or even in the top ten. A clean shot would have been a clear winner though.

Without more information it's hard to be more precise than that, for me.

 

[R a Z o R]

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I am missing the guestion . ... .

A Bad Gug wearing a ski mask and flashing his gun comes into BK and starts to rob the place while I am placing my order for a Whopper with : no onions , extra well done , yes cheese , extra crispy fries , a Coke , and OK go large .

Hell , it is Burger King and I want it my way . And I came in to order so I can get it my way so they can take their time . There is something about a slightly burned burger that I got to have sometimes . Even if I'm getting it to go .

OK back to the Bad Guy ... Have you ever heard of collective consciousness ? If you blow a couple of these BG's brains all over the wall crime goes down and I will enjoy my well-done Whopper with extra crispy HOT fries .

You know it is good to think about something like this before it happens . I hate it when somebody does not know what they want while they are ordering . I mean it is not rocket surgery .

Good news UPS delivered a knife today it is a 3.5" S&W taton point super sharp that will give an ear to ear smile.A forum member recommendedit .cost $21.99 , looks and fells like the SOG at a tenth of the price .

 

[ODA 226]

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I'm not a cop anymore. I'm not going to kill someone because he's delaying my Whopper order. I'm not going to talk trash or respond to his trash talking.

However...If I, following the "Reasonable and Prudent Man" doctrine, know beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt that the robber isabout to cause death or serious bodilly harm to an innocent, I'll drop him on the spot.

It's a matter of honor.

 

[Carnivore]

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AWDstylez wrote:

Carnivore wrote:

Most likely the area at the counter cleared almost immediately upon brandishing a weapon and the demand of give me all your money from someone in a ski mask, I belive I'da stepped back with the rest of the crowd, and shot the fella right in back of the head..



THE END!

And everyone lived happily ever after!!

That's how it would happen in ideal land, but that's not reality.

There really isn't enough information about how this went down. Who started the argument?

IMO, the customer put a resturant full of people at risk. Smash and grab robbers are there to get money, not to rack up a body count. There's no way in hell I'd escalate a robbery into a shootout in the middle of a crowded Burger King, unless someone was in immediate danger. The guy walks in, shows a gun, demands money... give him the money, he leaves, situation over. Burger King has insurance for a reason. I just don't see the logic in risking everyone's lives over a few hundred bucks in the register.

Summary: if he isn't actually hurting anyone thenstep back with everyone else, let him take the money, get the best discription I canand let the cops hunt him down.

NOT !!

smash and grab is successful on one occasion, they start to develope a sense of immortality, and the next brazen attempt gets worse, Kill the piece of shit where he stands, and the rest of the punks get the message that there's guns out there!!

Hard telling if someone was waiting outside, across the street in a get away car, or if he happen to be exiting the building about the time my wife/your wife pulled in and decides he needs to pistol whip or shoot her to acquire a vehicle and hit the fast lane, maybe with a child buckled in a car seat in the back.. Why take the other chance and let this illicit world get even more brazen..

 

[Pagan]

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Ok, so the guy shows his gun, but was he pointing it or waving it at other people? If he was doing that, threatenning with a deadly weapon plus had manifested actions to lead me to conclude he was going tokill or just shoot someone , and I had the shot, I would have taken it. No jury in the world would find you guilty if that was the situation. And noPA worth his salt dare press charges for that, unless he was in NYC or some other bass ackwards place.

I probably would have fired from the kneeling position(depending other peoples locations)so IF I missed, the bullet would most likely hit the ceiling, and I most certainly would not have started an argument, talkin sh*t is for punks. Do what you must then move on.

Although if the guy was not POINTING his weapon and just showed it,I would have attempted a citizens arrest, ordered him to the ground, and held hm there at gun point for the LEOs to arrive, and then if he tried to point his weaponor did anything "threatening", he would be dead.