Very nicely said from someone who lives nowhere near TN, has no idea of the common types of carry, and who has no clue of how a majority of businesses posted their signs prior to the newer language in the 39-17-1359 statute.
Another individual cowering behind the idea that since I am not in their state, I have no clue what I am talking about.
Pay attention:
#1. The US Constitution, and those amendments incorporated against the states, apply to
your states as well. This has nothing to do with municipality, and everything to do with equitable, unilateral recognition of a human right.
#2. Neither the state of Tennessee's, nor the US Constitution, allow for an infringement in the scope of outright denying a right unless you pay the state, and obtain a permit. Your retort would likely be that "they did, therefore it must be ok", yet these erroneous laws are being challenged all over the country.
First Heller.
Then McDonald.
It's coming whether you like it or not.
It is truly astounding that you believe LEOs are not targets simply from wearing the uniform and what they represent. Do you want me to post the numerous officer deaths from odmp of those that were ambushed or killed simply because they were LEOs?
As opposed to individuals who were ambushed, or killed, merely by being a citizen? It sure is nice to be allowed the tools to defend yourself in the line of duty, but deny the citizens you purportedly serve, the same basic human right.
I get so tired of the namby pamby whiny LEO crap about how they are targeted because they wear the uniform. Buddy, if you want to pull that card, I will give you a uniform to throw on that really will make you a target.
That way I don't have to hear how you are going to be targeted somewhere between Winchells and Applebees.
Far more citizens die every year from violent crime than every officer, who has ever served in any capacity as LEO, through the history of time. In
either case it is an atrocity, yet for some reason, you feel you are allowed the tools to defend yourself, while a citizen should not be.
I see you have served a mere 9 years, but somehow feel you are an expert, or qualified trainer in firearm tactics. I really hate to tell you this, but that is a piss in a pond, compared to some of the old combat goats you have on here, who have done time as both military, and LEO advisors and/or trainers.
My opinion on open carry is that is purely a tactical screwup, but that's my opinion only.You can disagree and post whatever jargon you want to support your side, but it isn't going to change my view on the matter.
Of course it's not going to change your mind.
You believe that attempting to present a firearm after retrieving from a hidden location, making rash movements in the process, in front of an agitated perpetrator or combatant, is somehow a wise idea.
It's your right to believe that farce if you like.
I'm very aware of the TN & U.S. Constitution and gladly uphold the oath I took so long ago.
Hold the phone there pal.
Really? You uphold the oath?
Are you so sure that you would be willing to join, say, oathkeepers?
Can I quiz you on the Constitution without you having to wikipedia every question I ask?
What part of "shall not be infringed", jives with your enforcement of unconstitutional law?
You enforce the HCP program, yet the Constitution states, "shall not be infringed".
Explain that away. You know you want to.
Nothing I have done has ever gone anywhere close to violating anyone's rights. I'm especially aware of what the TN Constitution has allowed the TN legislature to do when it comes to Handgun Carry Permits. The same legislature that enacted new laws on outlining the signage to prohibit weapons, which is still in the learning phase by many of the thousands of businesses across TN.
I don't know your arrest record, but I would bet you a box of donuts that you are lying, and probably without even realizing it.
In regards to the state of Tennessee's Constitution, you say that you are "aware of what it has allowed TN Legislature to do"...
Do you realize what a Constitution is?
The Constitution does not "allow" for anything. It "protects" enumerated rights, and is the basis of all law in a given government.
The correct observation by anyone even remotely cognizant of of the concepts of law, is that the Constitution is being violated, and it is incumbent upon the people, to correct this transgression.
As I've said already, I guess it's something the HCP holders feel like they should take advantage of until the right signs are erected. Bravo.
Every time LEO is sued for infringing upon these rights, you will scoff and say it's them (OC'ers) "taking advantage" of a process.
Nobody made him put up "concealed" signs, and anyone with a modicum of English skill, would determine that they don't want hidden weapons.
It is not incumbent upon any given individual to try and read minds, to determine what the individual wants. You apparently think this is appropriate, which I do have to say, is quite sad.
It is also not a patrons fault if a sign is out of compliance. If a private business owner came up to me and asked me to leave, or to hide or remove my firearm, I would simply smile, wish them a great day, and take my business elsewhere. No need to make a fuss, try and show me a laughable guard card, remove my firearm and place it on a table in front of total strangers, or other generally messy, and sloppy law enforcement garbage.
A fraction of cases and a fraction of money awarded when compared the amount of total claims regarding LE contact involving a weapon and/or OCer.
Hundreds of thousands of dollars guy. Hundreds of thousands.
A "fraction of cases" only make it because LEO bullying has well compensated attorneys, while private citizen Joe has to float the bill in most cases.
Let's not attempt to imply WA's policy is happening all over the U.S. It's a small majority, and not happening in urban areas with large populations.
********.
Virginia is a complete and total open carry state.
Alaska is a complete and total open carry state.
Arizona is a constitutional carry state.
Even California allows for UOC, which has been done from Golden Gate park, to downtown San Francisco.
A simple perusing of the maps provided by the founders of this site, which have been used across the country in various programs due to their accuracy, will show you how lost you are in the sauce.
From the dozens of HCP holders I have seen go through the classes, very few elect to open carry here. It's not the common practice, so again, live here awhile before you attempt to claim you know what's going on.
Man you are ignorant, aren't ya?
You think Tennessee is the only state with a permit process where people have been beat to death that they "must conceal carry"?
You lickin toads?
It does
not matter whether or not it is "common practice". Furthermore, in your state alone it is taught that "conceal carry is the best tactical choice, and do not open carry or you will be harassed, even though it's legal!". This has been substantiated by many who have taken the DHS HCP program.
Gee man, I wonder how I knew about GATTTOTP from my little alcove in Washington (Oh wait, I'm in Virginia now...)
Again, in the literal context it may seem that way, but for years businesses posted signs that specifially outlined "concealed carry" of weapons because that was (and still is) the common practice of how firearms are carried, especially in Nashville and the other larger cities in TN. That's why many owners are now learning the new verbage and correcting it accordingly. You wouldn't know that because you live 3000 miles away.
Right buddy. Because nowhere else but Tennessee do they use "No concealed weapon" signs. Nowhere else but Tennessee do they have a permit system. Nowhere else but in Tennessee have lawmakers, and poorly educated firearms instructors espousing that concealed carry is the only way to carry.
Let me give you the most important piece of advice you will get in this entire conversation:
You are the most uninformed individual I have ever seen when it comes to Constitutionality, and the law. You clearly do not have any clue as to what goes on in other states, which is a persistent focus of other open carriers.
Before you make such an erroneous sequence of comments again, it would behoove you to poke your head into other sections of the forum, and see what the law actually is, from state to state.
Tennessee is not some "unusual place" that nobody else can talk about. Your "You aren't here so neener neener" commentary is a childish cop out, and completely out of touch with reality.
By the way, I have lived (and/or visited for extended time)in:
Texas
California
Washington
Georgia
North Carolina
South Carolina
Virginia
Montana
Nevada
"Pro-carry" in the sense of doing it RESPONSIBLY. Should I post the story of the HCP holder that was arrested just north of Nashville today for pulling his gun on a kid because he threw a rock at his car?
Oh only if I can post the story of the officer shooting the handcuffed kid in Oakland in the back, because he "thought it was his taser" (Oh oops, sorry bro, didn't mean to kill you!)
Oh or maybe the cop who killed the deaf woodcarver in Seattle.
There are thousands of Open Carriers, none of which took your BS HCP program, and have managed not to do anything so rash and/or stupid as you described.
Although it doesn't surprise me that an individual who thinks his self-defense firearm should be hidden under layers of clothing, would also find it appropriate to pull a firearm on a kid who threw a rock at his car.
I wonder why I haven't heard of an open carrier doing this? Gee I don't know.
Sounds like a mystery to me!
Solely your opinion on the matter and nothing more. If Tennessee's laws were violating the US Constitution, let alone it's own, it would have been addressed eons ago.
Wow this is the most idiotic retort I have ever heard.
So you assume all laws enacted, even those in conflict with Constitutional protections, would have been "addressed eons ago"?
Wow are you so wrong, that I think I might have a laughing fit.
The common perception was that since the word "militia" appeared in the Constitution, irregardless of the "people" in the second sentence, that the 2nd Amendment was a collective right, and not an individual one.
UH OH! That was corrected in Heller.
I guess it wasn't addressed "eons ago" so the flaw in the law, wasn't there.
That is your absolutely laughable logic, in a very accurate nutshell.
McDonald also never happened, because Chicago was fine as it was.
:lol:
I will be glad to give you the AG's opinion on it and the case law that supports that the legislature will have the authority to regulate the wearing of arms. I'm not surprised of your comment. It's the one stance that most of you have here take = ala 2nd Amendment means carrying anytime, anywhere, anyhow with no restrictions whatsoever.
The AG's have not even had the time to reel in the change brought by
Heller or
McDonald. Their concept of law is now flawed, and having personally read the Tennessee AG's commentary before, your offer means about as much as a bucket of feces to me. I might spread it around my lawn to fertilize something worthwhile, but I won't be making any basis of law off of it.
News flash, it's not the 1800s anymore and there are going to be restrictions whether you like it or not.
Newsflash:
People still kill each other via violent means, and meaningless limitations or impositions on firearm carry affect only the victim, one law abiding John or Jane Q. Citizen.
Your tiring reference to the 1800's is amusing, especially since i am quite sure you wouldn't know your floppy bits from a doorknob in regards to that particular topic.
You made an oath to the Constitution pal. You gonna have the balls to defend it as promised, from enemies foreign and domestic, when all of your petty limitations are swept aside?
You scared to serve in Alaska or Arizona?
Constitutional carry must be sooo scary!
As far as restrictions on private property (i.e. businesses), you and others can have a direct impact on which direction that takes. So far in this neck of the woods, it's going the opposite direction because of the interaction that started this thread.
Listening to you speak on behalf of all business owners in Tennessee is cute.
Give somebody a badge, and they think anything is within their grasp.
Last I checked, this isn't the security guard forums. The OP didn't ask if the security officer had the authority to ask. Obviously he knew he didn't, so why would I bring that up again? Just because I didn't imply it I'm taking the side of the guard? You know what they say about ASSumptions right?
You certainly are right about the assumptions part. It's making a hell of an ass out of yourself (Ok, well the whole post you have managed to do that).
I didn't say you "sided with the security guard". Learn to read.
I am more interested in why you are mature and/or intellectual enough to address the other poignant factors of this particular topic.
Like why a guard would think it appropriate to present his guard card, under clear color of law, in an attempt to pose as a LEO to get the OP to present his HCP.
Oh wait, you don't care about that because you just want to denigrate those who OC.
Read above. The common signage around this state prohibited "concealed weapons" because the common perception was that TN had CCW permits (concealed).
Perception is not law cupcake.
Based on your demeanor, and absolute lack of knowledge about 90% of what you have tried to discuss in this thread, that little piece of information will bite you i nthe ass one day.
Are you also trying to say that "only" concealed signs are used in Tennessee?
I could post some that do not mention concealing at all, from your very state.
Of course this doesn't mean anything to you, because you defecate on the Constitutions you swore to uphold.
I was born and raised in TN and I remember observing the same verbage in many signs. Your argument "holds no water" as you like to put it. Opry Mills mall came to mind where a similar incident took place because the sign had the same type literature.
In "many signs", but not all. Amazing concession, even though you didn't mean to.
You wouldn't have a clue because you don't live here or anywhere close to where this took place. Honestly I don't know why you're even posting in the TN forum. Oh I know, someone probably called in reinforcements to support their argument.
Nobody calls in anybody. I have express interest in every section of the forum, as I want Constitutional carry for all.
Your argument is very weak, and you are severely undereducated, and misinformed about a myriad of topics you have tried to discuss. In your haste, you want to try and state that because someone has not lived in your state, that somehow the concepts of law are radically different.
Buddy, get out of your hole. Seriously.
Here's another thought. The OP could have done the exact same thing and asked if it was alright for him to remain in the building.It would have accomplished two things. Good interaction with the folks in the building, regardless of whether he could have remained or not, and (2) keeping a LEO from getting tied up. It goes both ways.
Nobody has to ask permission, and nobody should be expected to when conducting a normal, inalienable, and natural right.
I never doubted that. I've stopped dozens of them throughout my career with no problems at all. Believe it or not, I've even sat in and educated some folks in HCP classes about dealing with LEOs specifically during traffic stops and other contact.
How can you claim that you rarely see open carriers on one hand, then completely flip around and say you have stopped dozens over 9 years. I am simply saying that that in particular sounds odd to me.
HCP classes are terrible venues for information, and from state to state it is common that misinformation is intentionally spread in regards to the law, so that open carrying is frankly, discriminated against.
I'm aware that other states don't require a permit at all for carry, but I'm in one that does require one, so I'm going to enforce the laws that are applicable in my jurisdiction.
Other states have a setup closely mirroring yours as well. Your state is not unique. You do not live on a sovereign island.
Stop attempting to spread so much misinformation and BS, and you will find it rather welcoming here,
even if you oppose open carry!
You seem to be extremely undereducated on the topic though, and it's making you look very bad.
That is me being generous, and giving you a heads up before you hang yourself in conversation.
