Opencarry.org is a Political/Partisan group says the WI DOT

[MKEgal]

wheee!

I called Ms. Bown just to be sure that the open records request was received (it was), and she said that since I want the whole state she'd passed my request to the state coordinator. (I'd just checked my email & had no notice to that effect.)

MKEgal: OK, that makes sense. And how do I contact that person?

Ms Brown: She'll be contacting you.

(silence 1, 2, 3)

MKEgal: But what is her name & contact info?

Ms Brown: It's on the website.

MKEgal: So you're not willing to give me her name & contact info?

Ms Brown: (sounding a little exasperated) Her name is Christa Wollenzien, email is christa.wollenzien@dot.wi.gov

MKEgal: Thank you. I'll follow up with her.

(Then I go to da Google, put in her name & "wisconsin dot" to get her phone: 608-266-3943)
There's no reason I should have to ask 3 times. In fact, she should have volunteered the information.

ETA: got an email from the state-level person; they're working on it.

 

[MKEgal]

Interesting...
Apparently, based on several court rulings, it is illegal for them to discriminate based on ideas, associations, political views, etc.
So their whole rule about "no political or partisan groups" is illegal, let alone that they don't like our group name or what we stand for.
Looks like their rules will have to change.
Wonder if this is something people can do by inundating them with letters pointing out where they're wrong, or if it will take a letter from John or Mike, or if it will take an actual lawsuit.

From the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals
http://media.ca8.uscourts.gov/opndir/00/03/992334P.pdf
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

viewpoint-based exclusion of any individual or organization from a government program is not a constitutionally permitted means of expressing disapproval of ideas... that the government disfavors.

The state (MO) had tried to block the KKK from adopting a stretch of roadway.
The case is from 2000.

And from other court rulings:
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Supreme Court has held that a legal entitlement to a position or program is not necessary in order to assert an unconstitutional conditions claim.
Rutan v. Republican Party, 497 U.S. 62, 72 (1990)

At least two circuits have applied this analysis to volunteer governmental positions.
Andersen v. McCotter (10th Cir. 1996); Hyland v. Wonder (9th Cir. 1992)

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][The government] may not deny a benefit to a person on a basis that infringes his constitutionally protected interests - especially, his interest in freedom of speech.
For if the government could deny a benefit to a person because of his constitutionally protected speech or associations, his exercise of those freedoms would in effect be penalized and inhibited.
This would allow the government to "produce a result which [it] could not command directly."
Such interference with constitutional rights is impermissible. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Perry v. Sindermann, 408 U.S. 593, 597 (1972) (quoting Speiser v. Randall, 357 U.S. 513, 526 (1958)[/FONT]​

[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[EMNofSeattle]

That opinion was great.....

"The state argued in depositions that the knights of Columbus was not a discriminatory organization becuase 'anybody could become catholic' we believe this requires no response" :lol:

Had me laughing so hard my ipad is sticky from the coffee I was drinking....

 

[EMNofSeattle]

You should contact your local ACLU chapter, the ACLU is currently representing the ku klux klan in Georgia who applied for adopt a highway and were denied by the state becuase of their "history as a hae group" they may not represent you, but they'll probably send a polite letter on ACLU letterhead. Sometimes that may be enough for the bureaucrats to cut this out and crawl back under their rock

 

[MKEgal]

ACLU
207 E Buffalo St. Suite 325
Milwaukee, WI
53202-5774
Phone: 414-272-4032
Fax: 414-272-0182
liberty@aclu-wi.org

Going off to compose an email...

ETA: OK, I used their online form. According to them:

The individual who submitted this complaint will receive a written response after careful review and consideration. It typically takes at least 10 weeks for an individual complaint to be processed...

So that may not be in enough time to get the DOT to not take down the OCDO signs or drop us from their participation list. :uhoh:

 

[eye95]

I will be pleasantly surprised if the ACLU proves to be helpful. Keep us posted.


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<o>

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I will be pleasantly surprised if the ACLU proves to be helpful. Keep us posted.


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<o>

Why, the ACLU stands up for people all the time. A few years ago a Christian football player put a bible verse on his locker, school demanded he take it down, and the ACLU sent a letter to the district stating they were violating the students rights.

I know conservatives hate the ACLU and it all stems back to the cross in Southern California.... But they will usually assist people who believe they're rights are violated. Like any private organization they have the right to not take a case for whatever reason and yada yada, but they might be willing to help in some way if asked and they believe there's a case against the government.

What I want to know is how many grow have been denied for adopt a highway and how fairly the rule is applied.....

 

[E6chevron]

Why, the ACLU stands up for people all the time. A few years ago a Christian football player put a bible verse on his locker, school demanded he take it down, and the ACLU sent a letter to the district stating they were violating the students rights.

I know conservatives hate the ACLU and it all stems back to the cross in Southern California.... But they will usually assist people who believe they're rights are violated. Like any private organization they have the right to not take a case for whatever reason and yada yada, but they might be willing to help in some way if asked and they believe there's a case against the government.

What I want to know is how many grow have been denied for adopt a highway and how fairly the rule is applied.....

Well, I think the dislike that conservatives have for the ACLU has to do with things like their current position on the RKBA (2nd amendment, U.S. Constitution).

This is their current position: http://www.aclu.org/racial-justice_...law-reform_immigrants-rights/second-amendment

Their position (collective right) was based on a 1939 Supreme Court Decision: United States v. Miller. Now, when Supreme Court Decision: D.C v. Heller upholds an individuals right to keep and bear arms, they don't change their position, because it is a different approach than what they have advocated.

 

[davidmcbeth]

Well, I think the dislike that conservatives have for the ACLU has to do with things like their current position on the RKBA (2nd amendment, U.S. Constitution).

This is their current position: http://www.aclu.org/racial-justice_...law-reform_immigrants-rights/second-amendment

Their position (collective right) was based on a 1939 Supreme Court Decision: United States v. Miller. Now, when Supreme Court Decision: D.C v. Heller upholds an individuals right to keep and bear arms, they don't change their position, because it is a different approach than what they have advocated.

adding to the aclu posted statement(s):

Those questions will, presumably, be answered over time.


We ALL know why the aclu will never be pro-2nd amendment

 

[rickrich]

I'll give her a day or two to get back to me via email, then call.
If she's not willing to treat an email written request the same as a paper written request, I'm perfectly happy to write it up on paper & take it to her.
And they won't even have to mail any paper files (if that's necessary) - I'll drive out & pick them up.
Since there's nothing in my request connecting me to the OCDO group she's harassing, hopefully she'll be cooperative.

MKEgal - since you are taking action on this, I'll hold tight on any response. However, if you think a return letter to her stating opencarry.org is not a partisan/political group would be appropriate, just let me know and I'll send it.

To all: To be fair to Ms. Brown, she has been nothing but pleasant and accommodating over the phone since we adopted the section of hwy in '10. It's likely she had a complaint forwarded to her, and is blindly following procedure.

 

[eye95]

Why, the ACLU stands up for people all the time. A few years ago a Christian football player put a bible verse on his locker, school demanded he take it down, and the ACLU sent a letter to the district stating they were violating the students rights.

I know conservatives hate the ACLU and it all stems back to the cross in Southern California.... But they will usually assist people who believe they're rights are violated. Like any private organization they have the right to not take a case for whatever reason and yada yada, but they might be willing to help in some way if asked and they believe there's a case against the government.

What I want to know is how many grow have been denied for adopt a highway and how fairly the rule is applied.....

Folks need to stop representing opinions that they don't hold. It is disingenuous.

I don't like the ACLU because I perceive them as only fighting for "rights" if they fit into their liberal agenda. Almost all gun rights fights are waged with the conspicuous absence of the ACLU.

Again, if the ACLU helps, I will be pleasantly surprised.


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<o>

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Folks need to stop representing opinions that they don't hold. It is disingenuous.

I don't like the ACLU because I perceive them as only fighting for "rights" if they fit into their liberal agenda. Almost all gun rights fights are waged with the conspicuous absence of the ACLU.

Again, if the ACLU helps, I will be pleasantly surprised.


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<o>

"liberal agenda" meaning they never took on any pro-2A cases? so what, they've taken on many pro-4A cases, many pro-1A cases, more then a few 5A cases. so what you're doing is saying you oppose a group because they chose never to take second amendment cases they have a "liberal agenda" yes most ACLU members are liberal, but they hardly take the case only for liberals.

and it's not like the ACLU's absense has hurt gun owners, there are many powerful advocacy groups for gun rights. who else is fighting for your search and seizure rights and your freedom from cruel and unusual punishment rights and your first amendment rights with the same clout as ACLU?

 

[MKEgal]

MKEgal - since you are taking action on this, I'll hold tight on any response. However, if you think a return letter to her stating opencarry.org is not a partisan/political group would be appropriate, just let me know and I'll send it.

As far as they know, I'm doing a term paper; they can't associate me with any AaH group.
I'd say go ahead & send that letter. At worst, it will gain you/us some time & get it on record that we do not fit their prohibited definition.
Hit them from all sides. (I suppose by that analogy, I'm a sniper. Or maybe a sleeper agent.)

While you can write what you choose, I'd tend to not mention anything about their prohibition being illegal.
Save that for if they're still causing problems later.

*****
As of 01:45 on Thurs. the 13th, there's no data from the AaH program in my inbox.
Will keep checking, hoping that the data person gets it together soon.
Wouldn't it be nice if we found some groups with political/partisan names that maybe might seem more like liberal causes?
I'm guessing some panty-wetter saw the OCDO sign and had to clean their shorts, so made a complaint.
Doesn't excuse the lack of common sense in the office, but they probably didn't start the problem.

 

[eye95]

"liberal agenda" meaning they never took on any pro-2A cases? so what, they've taken on many pro-4A cases, many pro-1A cases, more then a few 5A cases. so what you're doing is saying you oppose a group because they chose never to take second amendment cases they have a "liberal agenda" yes most ACLU members are liberal, but they hardly take the case only for liberals.

and it's not like the ACLU's absense has hurt gun owners, there are many powerful advocacy groups for gun rights. who else is fighting for your search and seizure rights and your freedom from cruel and unusual punishment rights and your first amendment rights with the same clout as ACLU?

So what that they help hardly at all in any 2A cases???

This is a 2A site. I am a 2A advocate. The 2A is the Right that protects all others!

So what??? That's what!!!


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[Superlite27]

Has anyone asked the persons designating the sign as overtly political/partisan, "WHICH POLITICAL/PARTISAN ORGANIZATION THE PARTY NAMED ON THE SIGN IS AFFILIATED WITH?"?


When they are unable to name the partisan or political group the org. named on the sign is affiliated with, follow up with, "If you can't tell me what political entity the organization on the sign is affiliated with, how can you order them to remove the sign for overt political/partisan affiliation?"

I'd love to hear the answer to that.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

So what that they help hardly at all in any 2A cases???

This is a 2A site. I am a 2A advocate. The 2A is the Right that protects all others!

So what??? That's what!!!


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<o>

it must be doing a pretty crappy job at it, where you and your gun when the Bush administration was holding US Citizens without charges? where were you and your gun when they were torturing people without charges or trial holding them indefinitely? where were you and your gun when the government was reading your emails and looking at your library records?

if the second amendment protects all the other rights then I guess we're all hosed. Don't come up with this pious patriotism nonsense, the second amendment has not been used to protect any rights since 1946 is the last time I can tell.

 

[MKEgal]

A suggestion from Auric (Shotgun):

do an open records request for any possible correspondence they may have gotten regarding the open carry group.

Find out who is objecting.
Letters, email, internal memos...

 

[GlockRDH]

Can we find out what it takes to 'file a complaint' regarding any similar signage..? outside of Wyocena theres a similar sign indicating that the local 'AFSCME' group is doing the same thing... wonder if I should file a complaint...

 

[rickrich]

Response to DOT on Signs

FYI, I sent her this email this morning.

------------------------------
Dear Ms. Brown,

RE: June 4th letter on opencarry.org being a Partisan/Political group.

I’m writing to let you know the complainant was misinformed on the partisan or political nature of opencarry.org

Opencarry.org is not partisan as the group contains members of all parties.

Opencarry.org is not political, since opencarry.org does not have any political power, or any active funds or standing political stance.


Please let me know any questions or comments.

Regards,

Rick

partisan? not possible sense there are members of all parties. political, don't know about that. since opencarry.org does not have any political power, or any active funds or standing political stance.

i am partial to saying, who gives a rats but, let the highways go dirty. there are plenty of prisoners that can clean the roads

but i do understand the PR that comes with doing a good deed and having your name on the board. not excluding the camaraderie of getting together to do something

is there a different controlling group to appeal to?

 

[MKEgal]

Nice. I like it. Puts the onus on them to explain why they think we're political or partisan, and then we can hit them with the court rulings saying that's not a legal reason to prevent participation.

I still have no response to my open records request beyond their email saying that they were working on it.