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Open Carrier Arrested in Iowa for not showing Permit

DocWalker

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,922
Location
Mountain Home, Idaho, USA
It's done through the department, it's all above-board. It's done almost everywhere. The PD could explain the procedures if you give them a call and ask. An officer is acting as an officer, contracted out to the business.

I disagree with this. If the State or city pays to train and arm an officer than have the officer use his training and equipment to "moonlight", get hired and paid by a private company would be miss-us of public resorces. In the military I couldn't use my Humvee to go camping on the weekend as the taxpayer is paying for it and the gas. Same apply's here.

If he is hired and paid for a job while off duty he falls under that job. He is OFF duty and under the employement of the other company. Wallmart will be the big loser in this lawsuit.
 

2OLD2W8

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2011
Messages
138
Location
Black Waters
I disagree with this. If the State or city pays to train and arm an officer than have the officer use his training and equipment to "moonlight", get hired and paid by a private company would be miss-us of public resorces.

I'm with ya Doc!!!! We need to remember how special the boys in blue are to the sheeple they "protect". LE are like GODS to the helpless frightened sheeple. The combination of a badge and a sworn oath to serve and "protect" all but guarantee an impervious Teflon (TM) coating and special treatment when issues like this arise.

I wonder how the vast majority of back woods agrarian country folk that populated the (non-urban) US countryside in the 1800's survived and thrived without the overbearing interference of LE? I have my suspicions as to why!!!
 

Dennis Estell

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2013
Messages
15
Location
Des Moines
I have been reading posts for some time now and figured it was time to set the record straight. First off, there is a history between local DMPD and myself prior to my arrest. In the several months prior to this incident, I was stopped for open carry 7 times, all but the first time occurring on the same street, at about the same time of day each time. I would walk from my house, to the gas station for some smokes, and walk back. Total of maybe a mile each way. The first time I was stopped on this street I was told to put my hands up as high as I could get them, and I was then disarmed. A few weeks later I was verbally accosted by two officers on how dumb I was to open carry, I should just cover it up or I was going to get killed. They told me they didn't want to see me open carrying again or I would be arrested for violation of a lawful order. Two weeks later, I was stopped by a cop in a bullet proof vest hiding behind his door, with weapon drawn. He told my to put my hands up and walk slowly to the front of his vehicle. I placed my hands on the hood and I was then handcuffed by a second officer. My information was taken down to the size of my boots. A third officer showed up later and lo and behold its on of the cops that was yelling at me about open carry two weeks earlier. He again chewed me out for open carry, and told me to get used to being held and gunpoint and handcuffed because if I continued to open carry it was going to happen often. A supervisor showed up at my house that night and wanted to know what was going on. I explained it to him, and he then told me the female officer(the one that had disarmed me earlier) had been on the radio about 15 min before I was stopped trying to tell them to leave me alone, not that it did much good. Every instance except my first stop I was always treated like a piece of dirt by LEOs, and they we always hostile towards me before I had even said a word to them. I never argued or raised my voice to any officers during any of these stops. I refused to show my permit for two reasons. First, the officer who arrested my was hostile from the outset, and told me he had approached me because wal mart had a no weapons policy(it dosent). Second, I had gotten tired of the LEOs dumping on me and I couldn't do anything about it. I have a complete report I have written that is word for word on every stop I had been involved in. I will email it to anyone who asks for it.
 

amaixner

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2008
Messages
308
Location
Linn County, Iowa
I have been reading posts for some time now and figured it was time to set the record straight. First off, there is a history between local DMPD and myself prior to my arrest. In the several months prior to this incident, I was stopped for open carry 7 times, all but the first time occurring on the same street, at about the same time of day each time. I would walk from my house, to the gas station for some smokes, and walk back. Total of maybe a mile each way. The first time I was stopped on this street I was told to put my hands up as high as I could get them, and I was then disarmed. A few weeks later I was verbally accosted by two officers on how dumb I was to open carry, I should just cover it up or I was going to get killed. They told me they didn't want to see me open carrying again or I would be arrested for violation of a lawful order. Two weeks later, I was stopped by a cop in a bullet proof vest hiding behind his door, with weapon drawn. He told my to put my hands up and walk slowly to the front of his vehicle. I placed my hands on the hood and I was then handcuffed by a second officer. My information was taken down to the size of my boots. A third officer showed up later and lo and behold its on of the cops that was yelling at me about open carry two weeks earlier. He again chewed me out for open carry, and told me to get used to being held and gunpoint and handcuffed because if I continued to open carry it was going to happen often. A supervisor showed up at my house that night and wanted to know what was going on. I explained it to him, and he then told me the female officer(the one that had disarmed me earlier) had been on the radio about 15 min before I was stopped trying to tell them to leave me alone, not that it did much good. Every instance except my first stop I was always treated like a piece of dirt by LEOs, and they we always hostile towards me before I had even said a word to them. I never argued or raised my voice to any officers during any of these stops. I refused to show my permit for two reasons. First, the officer who arrested my was hostile from the outset, and told me he had approached me because wal mart had a no weapons policy(it dosent). Second, I had gotten tired of the LEOs dumping on me and I couldn't do anything about it. I have a complete report I have written that is word for word on every stop I had been involved in. I will email it to anyone who asks for it.
This is a textbook case of police harassment. Do you have a lawyer?
 

DocWalker

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,922
Location
Mountain Home, Idaho, USA
I have been reading posts for some time now and figured it was time to set the record straight. First off, there is a history between local DMPD and myself prior to my arrest. In the several months prior to this incident, I was stopped for open carry 7 times, all but the first time occurring on the same street, at about the same time of day each time. I would walk from my house, to the gas station for some smokes, and walk back. Total of maybe a mile each way. The first time I was stopped on this street I was told to put my hands up as high as I could get them, and I was then disarmed. A few weeks later I was verbally accosted by two officers on how dumb I was to open carry, I should just cover it up or I was going to get killed. They told me they didn't want to see me open carrying again or I would be arrested for violation of a lawful order. Two weeks later, I was stopped by a cop in a bullet proof vest hiding behind his door, with weapon drawn. He told my to put my hands up and walk slowly to the front of his vehicle. I placed my hands on the hood and I was then handcuffed by a second officer. My information was taken down to the size of my boots. A third officer showed up later and lo and behold its on of the cops that was yelling at me about open carry two weeks earlier. He again chewed me out for open carry, and told me to get used to being held and gunpoint and handcuffed because if I continued to open carry it was going to happen often. A supervisor showed up at my house that night and wanted to know what was going on. I explained it to him, and he then told me the female officer(the one that had disarmed me earlier) had been on the radio about 15 min before I was stopped trying to tell them to leave me alone, not that it did much good. Every instance except my first stop I was always treated like a piece of dirt by LEOs, and they we always hostile towards me before I had even said a word to them. I never argued or raised my voice to any officers during any of these stops. I refused to show my permit for two reasons. First, the officer who arrested my was hostile from the outset, and told me he had approached me because wal mart had a no weapons policy(it dosent). Second, I had gotten tired of the LEOs dumping on me and I couldn't do anything about it. I have a complete report I have written that is word for word on every stop I had been involved in. I will email it to anyone who asks for it.

Get a lawyer and a voice recorder. If you have a friend with a video camera that smokes also have him walk with you about 10 feet away filming. If you don't have witnesses, video, or a recording of it the cops will deny they said what they did and they will stick together. It is your word against theirs and guess who the courts will believe.
 

Dennis Estell

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2013
Messages
15
Location
Des Moines
I only have a public defender right now. I have been feeding information to Iowa gun owners, but don't know if they will take up the case or not. I figured it would be their word against mine, which is why I have told my public defender that if the LEOs try to railroad me on this, I would be requesting lie detectors for myself and for any officers involved. That would not make DMPD look to good. I am planning to file suit against the department as well but I'm not sure how to go about it.
 

Tucker6900

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
1,276
Location
Iowa, USA
I only have a public defender right now. I have been feeding information to Iowa gun owners, but don't know if they will take up the case or not. I figured it would be their word against mine, which is why I have told my public defender that if the LEOs try to railroad me on this, I would be requesting lie detectors for myself and for any officers involved. That would not make DMPD look to good. I am planning to file suit against the department as well but I'm not sure how to go about it.

Were with you friend. I have yet to be put through the pains of having police officers try to force their will upon me, but I can understand your frustration. I hope IGO can help, as a positive outcome from your case could change the face of permit required weapons carry in Iowa, as I believe that we will need a judge to decide if an officer can or cannot legally stop someone if they have not committed a crime.

As stated above, you MUST get a digital voice recorder and/or a video camera. In todays world, its an absolute necessity when carrying. I applaud your standing up. Most would just lay down.

I would suggest, as my lawyer has stated many times, dont post any case information on this or any other public site until its settled. I would redact your initial post explaining the harassment.

Good luck to you. Let us know if you need anything else.
 

Maverick9

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
1,404
Location
Mid-atlantic
I have to say the person who was involved in this was MONUMENTALLY STUPID.

What is the point of having SA if in a clear case like this he allowed a thug (in a costume, no less) to mug him, and complied and encouraged and enabled it?

He had 7 instances where he was patient and complied and THIS time he 'had enough'?

He should have been recording, videoing and having a witness with him after the second or third time. Maybe he has dain bramage? I mean COME ON...
 

DocWalker

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,922
Location
Mountain Home, Idaho, USA
I have to say the person who was involved in this was MONUMENTALLY STUPID.

What is the point of having SA if in a clear case like this he allowed a thug (in a costume, no less) to mug him, and complied and encouraged and enabled it?

He had 7 instances where he was patient and complied and THIS time he 'had enough'?

He should have been recording, videoing and having a witness with him after the second or third time. Maybe he has dain bramage? I mean COME ON...

I would submit after the first time if not before....
 

Darkshadow62988

Activist Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
242
Location
Iowa
The subject of this thread hasn't been back since his last(only) two posts, but it looks like all the charges were dismissed. He didn't get away without having to pay a couple hundred bucks in court costs and posting a couple grand bail. There's still a meeting scheduled in a week with regard to the seized property, but it is looking like this may turn out to be the start to one of the first successful civil rights violations lawsuit related to OC in IA.
 

amaixner

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2008
Messages
308
Location
Linn County, Iowa
The subject of this thread hasn't been back since his last(only) two posts, but it looks like all the charges were dismissed. He didn't get away without having to pay a couple hundred bucks in court costs and posting a couple grand bail. There's still a meeting scheduled in a week with regard to the seized property, but it is looking like this may turn out to be the start to one of the first successful civil rights violations lawsuit related to OC in IA.

Very interesting!
 

XD40sc

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
Messages
402
Location
NC
The law also makes driving a vehicle a crime unless you have a permit AND show it to a peace officer on demand.

/S Remember, GUNS are much more dangerous than vehicles! :eek: /S !!!!!!!!

The courts have ruled that they can stop and demand to see a drivers license, BUT only if they stop and check EVERY vehicle. If they stop only pickup trucks, or red vehicles, or vehicles driven only by women, then they are profiling.

Did this cop stop everyone going to Wal-wart and ask if they armed? Since he didn't he clearly violated the rights of the OC'er.
 

Darkshadow62988

Activist Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
242
Location
Iowa
The courts have ruled that they can stop and demand to see a drivers license, BUT only if they stop and check EVERY vehicle. If they stop only pickup trucks, or red vehicles, or vehicles driven only by women, then they are profiling.

Did this cop stop everyone going to Wal-wart and ask if they armed? Since he didn't he clearly violated the rights of the OC'er.

Cite?
 

Tucker6900

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
1,276
Location
Iowa, USA
The subject of this thread hasn't been back since his last(only) two posts, but it looks like all the charges were dismissed. He didn't get away without having to pay a couple hundred bucks in court costs and posting a couple grand bail. There's still a meeting scheduled in a week with regard to the seized property, but it is looking like this may turn out to be the start to one of the first successful civil rights violations lawsuit related to OC in IA.

A dismissed charge does not mean anything. Its written into 724 that if he shows a permit when he goes to court he will not be convicted. I doubt he will even have to show one, as Sheriffs records will show he had one. I dont think there will be enough standing for a suit, unless he goes for the unconstitutional requirement of a permit. Otherwise, according to state statute, the court and officers did their "job". I dont agree with it, but until we fight that fight, we have gotten nowhere.

And to add, he should be getting all of his bail money back, and court costs are not required to be paid as the charges were dismissed.

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:

Dennis Estell

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2013
Messages
15
Location
Des Moines
Well guys now that I can finally talk about this. I KNEW I would be arrested for refusal to show my permit. What is not important is the carrying weapons charge, as that was not the point of my arrest. The second charge, which cites 724.5 of the iowa code, is what is interesting. The ruling from the judge is that, as the code is written, I am not legally required to povide a permit on demand IF i am open carrying. Now, the real question is, if I am arrested again((hypothetically)) not for refusal to provide a permit, but simply for having the firearm under the carrying weapons code, what would happen? I am inclined to think that the carrying weapons law would be ruled unconstitutional. The cop would say his reasoning for the arrest would be "he had a gun", or "I didnt know if he was legally carrying". That would not be suspicion enough for an arrest because its legal to carry with a permit. So the officer would have to say what led him to believe that I was illegally carrying the firearm without a permit. He would have none. And that folks, is how you get things done.
 

Darkshadow62988

Activist Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
242
Location
Iowa
Well guys now that I can finally talk about this. I KNEW I would be arrested for refusal to show my permit. What is not important is the carrying weapons charge, as that was not the point of my arrest. The second charge, which cites 724.5 of the iowa code, is what is interesting. The ruling from the judge is that, as the code is written, I am not legally required to povide a permit on demand IF i am open carrying. Now, the real question is, if I am arrested again((hypothetically)) not for refusal to provide a permit, but simply for having the firearm under the carrying weapons code, what would happen? I am inclined to think that the carrying weapons law would be ruled unconstitutional. The cop would say his reasoning for the arrest would be "he had a gun", or "I didnt know if he was legally carrying". That would not be suspicion enough for an arrest because its legal to carry with a permit. So the officer would have to say what led him to believe that I was illegally carrying the firearm without a permit. He would have none. And that folks, is how you get things done.

So because 724.5 specifically says, "A person armed with a revolver, pistol, or pocket billy concealed upon the person shall have in the person's immediate possession the permit provided for in section 724.4" both the charge under 724.4 and the charge under 724.5 were dismissed because 724.4 specifically says if one presents the permit at trial they won't be convicted and 724.5 doesn't apply to open carry?

I get the reasoning and that is what a very strict letter or the law literal interpretation means. I'm just leery of something that seems logical coming out of the courts. Just look at what's happening to MKEgal in WI and all that drama.
 

Tucker6900

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
1,276
Location
Iowa, USA
Well guys now that I can finally talk about this. I KNEW I would be arrested for refusal to show my permit. What is not important is the carrying weapons charge, as that was not the point of my arrest. The second charge, which cites 724.5 of the iowa code, is what is interesting. The ruling from the judge is that, as the code is written, I am not legally required to povide a permit on demand IF i am open carrying. Now, the real question is, if I am arrested again((hypothetically)) not for refusal to provide a permit, but simply for having the firearm under the carrying weapons code, what would happen? I am inclined to think that the carrying weapons law would be ruled unconstitutional. The cop would say his reasoning for the arrest would be "he had a gun", or "I didnt know if he was legally carrying". That would not be suspicion enough for an arrest because its legal to carry with a permit. So the officer would have to say what led him to believe that I was illegally carrying the firearm without a permit. He would have none. And that folks, is how you get things done.

That is good to hear. Can you post a link to/copies of the court documents?

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,912
Location
North Carolina
This goes to the core of the foolish misconceptions that gun permits are a right. Because he was armed and a permit was required it is the same as driving a car. Because he clearly had a firearm, gave the officer reason to ask for a permit. So again the OCer gets hassled and the CCer does not. Anybody who thinks requiring permits to OC is not an attempt to eliminate OC is very foolish.
 

F350

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2012
Messages
942
Location
The High Plains of Wyoming
This goes to the core of the foolish misconceptions that gun permits are a right. Because he was armed and a permit was required it is the same as driving a car. Because he clearly had a firearm, gave the officer reason to ask for a permit. So again the OCer gets hassled and the CCer does not. Anybody who thinks requiring permits to OC is not an attempt to eliminate OC is very foolish.


Exactly, and the driver of a vehicle CAN NOT be stopped just for papers check, neither can the carrier of a firearm; both require at a minimum require RAS; so saith SCOTUS.
 
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