Obama's 'Gun Violence Task Force': Enough bickering. Time to act.

[Evil Creamsicle]

So, it appears we are about to have a nationwide problem. So instead of bickering about who is more right, or what kind of activists you are, or Stainless1911 bickering, why don't we use this thread to suggest some solid ideas on what we can do to garner some pro-gun attention. We need to send a message that we will not stand for further infringements upon our rights... Any of our rights. This is bigger than Michigan now, its bigger than 'MOC betrayed us!', its bigger than trying to ban forum users. This thread is for one thing: Putting aside your individual bitches and making something happen. We are all in this together, and we will only get through it together.

So now, I want some ideas, some discussion about what we can do to help everyone and avoid additional restrictions, which, believe me, are coming down the pipe, and soon. I, for one, am going to at least be able to say I tried.
So wipe the **** off your shoes, check your ego at the door, and lets open the floor to discussion. We all want the same thing, and we're going to need everyone.

Things to note:
I don't want any illegal suggestions. These will not help us.
Cops and Antis and Everyone trolls this forum, so if you have an idea that would require 'element of surprise', PM me and we'll discuss the best way to disseminate the information to interested parties.
If you show up to this thread to complain or bring issues from other threads in here, you will be immediately and irrevocably added to my ignore list. We don't have time for you.
Suggestions for other noteworthy items are encouraged, but ideas for how to protect our rights are better.

Note to Mods and Admins:
While I will acknowledge that this doesn't specifically address Open Carry, it does address concerns of wide-sweeping gun legislation which is likely to include Open Carry. Either way, I think it is important, so I would appreciate it's staying open.

 

[Evil Creamsicle]

Well, let me explain my focus:

Legislation will be coming down the pipe, and the media is spinning a lot of gun control rhetoric. What we need to do first, I think, is focus on public opinion. We need pro gun media, if this means a huge event somewhere, fine. We need to show politicians we're still here, and we need those who may be on the fence to hear both sides, because right now the general impressionable public is pretty much only seeing the anti-gun side of things.

Proposing our own legislation is good too, and I know Phil was working on some constitutional carry legislation, but in our current political climate, this stuff won't get passed. We need support first. We need to be in the public eye. If this gets swept under the rug, then our media voice opportunity will be gone, and all people will remember seeing is the anti-gun press. This is time sensitive.

So, I'm thinking a demonstration or event or something of that nature is required.

 

[griffin]

Cops troll this forum

Are you suggesting that police are anti-2A?

 

[Hevymetal]

Are you suggesting that police are anti-2A?

It's a know fact some are very anti 2A, or at least they have the opinion non-LEOs shouldn't have guns.

 

[Evil Creamsicle]

Are you suggesting that police are anti-2A?

I'm not suggesting that Cops are anti 2A, though like with any profession, some are. My point in mentioning this was that many departments have been, in the past, resistant to our efforts, and to use your own judgement as to whether or not that fact has any bearing on what you post.

But this isn't really relevant to the thread, is it? Do you have any thoughts on the actual topic?

 

[Raggs]

I am in.
Clearly some LEO and LEA's are anti 2A, not all, but some.

 

[OC4me]

My 0.02 worth is that we need to fix the gun-free zone problem.

We absolutely must pass legislation in Michigan that allows concealed carry in these killing zones (sans the OC prohibition, if possible) with a veto-proof margin.

As soon as a State, whether Michigan or another, allows concealed carry in schools, the national debate on gun control will begin to shift from the pro-gun side defending 'assault' weapons and magazines to the anti-gun side defending gun-free zones. I don't think that the average American has made the gun-free-zone = place-where-massacres-happen connection as of yet. The mainstream media certainly hasn't made it. If a state can finally pass concealed carry in schools then the taboo subject of gun-free school zones can no longer be ignored by those talking heads.

That day will be the day that America finally wakes up to the stupidity of victim-disarmament zones, amen.

Meanwhile, until then, I'm afraid we will continue to have periodic gun-free zone massacres along with hijacking of these sad events by the antis to scare the ill-informed masses.

I'm fine with no massacres of the innocent, I'd be completely happy with that. The antis will then have nothing to fear monger with as the national violent crime trend has been falling every year.

 

[griffin]

I'm not suggesting that Cops are anti 2A...But this isn't really relevant to the thread, is it?

Yes, it is, because it sounds like you are advocating secrecy so the police do not find out what we are going to do and thus (unlawfully) try to prevent us from doing--something. That has bearing on what we do, how we do it, and how we organize. If they are not anti-2A there is nothing to fear from them.

 

[Shadow Bear]

Once we sort through the emotional shouting (prevalent on BOTH sides of the equation), I believe it boils down to two freedoms in opposition.

On one side, we have folks who are, to some degree, mentally ill. They are likely to never become a threat to society, although a few will. Unfortunately, there is no fool proof method to determine which few are actually going to do violence, and the overwhelming majority who will not.

On the other side are those who hold onto their guns with religious fervor. Their minds are closed to any meaningful dialogue on the subject. They are absolute in their resolve to not give, even an inch.

(McVeigh and Breivik don't even enter into the equation- the outliers- people with a radical political agenda and the will to carry it out. Against them is no defense.)

So, do we deprive a large number of folks with the misfortune of mental illness of their freedom? We'd have to put them ALL away, since we don't know which ones are going to become violent. I don't believe freedom loving individuals would support the massive incarceration of people because they MIGHT do something (because they are mentally ill). That could progress to massive incarceration of people who just don't 'fit' in society. Then its the massive incarceration of ethnic groups. See where this is going? Say it won't happen, but it already has, and will again. It is undeniably a human failing.

If we insist that guns be as available as soda pop at the corner store, that's what we'd have to do- lock up anybody who is 'different' because they MIGHT do something. The easy availability of firearms (legal and otherwise) leave little other option, in my opinion.

On the other hand is the possibly paranoid (another mental illness) view of some firearm owners that the government is actually 'out to get them'. I don't believe that is true. They treat every attempt of the government to try to put any sort of controls on who may purchase / own / carry a firearm as a personal affront to THEIR liberty.

Well, its one person's liberty vs. another's. Who's right? Who 'wins'? Do we take the liberty of the mentally ill, the liberty of the firearm owner, or is there some middle ground that we can agree on?

 

[griffin]

You are already looking for compromises. How about if we not take the liberties away from either group? Just a thought.

 

[Raggs]

Ok, I am in, my other post said this as well, serious answer to a serious question. Mods need to stop getting rid of things they personally disagree with and let the conversation continue.

 

[WARCHILD]

Okay, I will give you the first problem that HAS to be addressed before anything meaningful can be accomplished.

1. Find a recognized media outlet that will let you voice/print your argument/information without bias. As we all know how it works in the REAL world; don't believe what you hear on the internet. But...if you see it on the news it must be true!! That is the very first hurdle that must be jumped before you compile your info/argument.

2. Compile a graph/info showing the relationship between the level of crime and the gun control. From what I have seen, the states with less gun control also have lower crime rates.

3. This one will be difficult; the number of dramatic gun crimes reported as opposed to never hearing the times guns were used to prevent crime.

4. Make an effort to make our schools safer instead of blaming the gun. Identity programs were instituted to protect our children from predators in school zones. No one even suggested that predators must be branded as such or wear a sign proclaiming their offenses. That's humiliating and unacceptable in our society. So they increased security in school zones to protect the children.
If guns are a problem; install bullet proof glass and a double foyer access to the buildings. Nah...it's easier to scream for more gun control.

5. Make the point that most gun crimes are committed with either a stolen gun or one obtained illegally.

6. If regulation is the way to go; ask how the prohibition era worked for the alcohol regulation. OR..how the war on drugs has worked for them!

7. See #1...till you have an outlet to reach the masses.. none of it matters.

JMO

 

[FreeInAZ]

Ok, I am in, my other post said this as well, serious answer to a serious question. Mods need to stop getting rid of things they personally disagree with and let the conversation continue.

Careful you are walking the fine line of a personal attack on the mods.

Now on topic

Here in AZ some counties have a sworn force of reserve deputies/posse's . http://www.mcsoposse.org/ They have full arrest powers. They often are volunteers usually and perform many valuable functions after completing a training program. Why not expand this idea nation wide and have school posse's? This let's the districts off the hook for liability and gives younger people, veterans, or retirees a valuable chance to gain training and experience in a LE role while serving their community.

We will never stop the nuts until they know the schools are no longer a shoot the fish in the barrel fun zone for them.

 

[FreeInAZ]

The only GFZ's / Signage that works are the ones in the movies.

[video=youtube;Tcwz8-EfFYE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tcwz8-EfFYE[/video]

 

[Evil Creamsicle]

OK I'm seeing a few good ideas. Freeina good idea. Also I agree that we need a media outlet first. Any ideas on how to get some air time?

 

[Venator]

Well, let me explain my focus:

Legislation will be coming down the pipe, and the media is spinning a lot of gun control rhetoric. What we need to do first, I think, is focus on public opinion. We need pro gun media, if this means a huge event somewhere, fine. We need to show politicians we're still here, and we need those who may be on the fence to hear both sides, because right now the general impressionable public is pretty much only seeing the anti-gun side of things.

Proposing our own legislation is good too, and I know Phil was working on some constitutional carry legislation, but in our current political climate, this stuff won't get passed. We need support first. We need to be in the public eye. If this gets swept under the rug, then our media voice opportunity will be gone, and all people will remember seeing is the anti-gun press. This is time sensitive.

So, I'm thinking a demonstration or event or something of that nature is required.

The Second Amendment March Board is discussing this. We may have some event at the state capitol. It's still in the discussing stage, but we are leaning toward doing something.

 

[Shadow Bear]

I dont know what your problem is with me, but my posts were well within OPs requests. Deleting them was out of line. I was very careful to respect his wishes.

Evil, PM sent.,

Fine, I give up. Everyone can judge for themselves how useful the posts were. I don't know why I try.....

 

[Shadow Bear]

You are already looking for compromises. How about if we not take the liberties away from either group? Just a thought.

Well, that's just it- how do we do that? Keep both sides liberty, AND safety? I have no idea.

I'm pretty sure a massive media campaign or another poorly attended 2nd Amendment march is going to win over any of the 'opposition'.

Media and lobbying have worked so well for the NRA; they've even alienated a good number of more moderate gun owners, as evidenced by many posts on this and similar forums. They've staked out the far end of the continuum, alienated the middle, and are completely dismissed as the lunatic fringe by the other end (the anti gun lunatic fringe).

So far, what I've seen of rallies at the capital, they're poorly attended, and attract what I would call the fringe element, giving the media plenty of fodder for sensationalized articles that marginalize the attendees. Did anyone notice that the NRA spokesman was wearing a SUIT, and not camouflage? He wasn't carrying a weapon? He was presenting ideas, which are infinitely more powerful than any firearm.

The pen is, indeed, mightier than the sword.

 

[Shadow Bear]

Careful you are walking the fine line of a personal attack on the mods.

Now on topic

Here in AZ some counties have a sworn force of reserve deputies/posse's . http://www.mcsoposse.org/ They have full arrest powers. They often are volunteers usually and perform many valuable functions after completing a training program. Why not expand this idea nation wide and have school posse's? This let's the districts off the hook for liability and gives younger people, veterans, or retirees a valuable chance to gain training and experience in a LE role while serving their community.

We will never stop the nuts until they know the schools are no longer a shoot the fish in the barrel fun zone for them.

Schools are governmental agencies; they can be shamed into taking responsibility for the children in their care.

What about churches, temples, synagogues, movie theaters, and the like?

As for me and mine, we stay out of free fire zones; if more did, perhaps they'd feel the economic pinch. Problem is, many don't acknowledge the risk, or feel the odds are in their favor, that a mass shooting won't occur while they are present (and unarmed).

 

[Shadow Bear]

Tell it friend. Question is, what do we do first, especially here in Michigan? We have Stabenow and Levin in Washington, and we have been deceived by those who are elected by us, in a total red state. After 5225, 59, and a half session of nothing, Im not sure where to place my bets.

Next thing on the radar for us, would have been private property rights being re instated in vehicles, and preemption. Considering whats going on in Lansing right now, does not inspire a feeling of confidence.

So, is there a suggestion in there, somewhere?