Man killed in police raid!!

[Jim675]

Knock Warrant: Knock-Knock, "POLICE!", CRASH, BOOM-BOOM-BOOM = 6 seconds
No-Knock Warrant: CRASH, BOOM-BOOM-BOOM = 3 seconds

The problem is not so much the type of warrant as the anonymous informants and especially the mind set of the warrant-serving "warriors".

Can these guys get out of this with out charges? I'd be shocked if they don't. That most certainly does not make what they did OK or make me admire their apologists any more.

This is the same mind set issue that Officer Birk used in Seattle. The LEO acts aggressively and then claims self defense when the citizen responds.

If I yell and rush a LEO with my gun drawn and he draws then I can shoot in self defense, right? Assuming someone told me he committed a non-violent crime of course.

 

[LibertyDeath]

I know one thing for sure, if they found nothing in that house then the confidential informant deserves to be held liable for the death of that man.

 

[HandyHamlet]

The informant did not order how the warrant was served. But I hear you.

 

[marshaul]

I think we ought to wait and see what all shakes out of this before getting out the nooses and torches.

This has happened something like 50 times (at least), and not once has anybody ever faced any repercussions.

 

[Deanimator]

The informant did not order how the warrant was served. But I hear you.

Heck, he might not even EXIST.

 

[HandyHamlet]

Heck, he might not even EXIST.

See below. You are correct.

This has happened something like 50 times (at least), and not one has anybody ever faces any repercussions.

Well actually...

Atlanta agrees to pay $4.9 million to family of grandmother shot during botched drug raid

Published August 16, 2010

ATLANTA – Atlanta has agreed to pay $4.9 million to the family of a 92-year-old woman killed in a botched drug raid.

Mayor Kasim Reed said Monday that the city will pay the family of Kathryn Johnston $2.9 million this fiscal year and the rest next year.

Johnston died in her home in 2006 when three members of a police drug squad kicked in the door, acting on an informant's claim that he had bought narcotics there. She took a shot at them and was gunned down. No drugs were found, and officers planted drugs that had been recovered from a different raid.

An FBI investigation led five officers to plead guilty for their roles in the shooting, while six others were reprimanded for not following department policy.

The Atlanta City Council must still approve the payout deal.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/08/1...dmother-shot-botched-drug-raid/#ixzz1Q1fC32Bn

 

[LibertyDeath]

The informant did not order how the warrant was served. But I hear you.

I know he can't be charged with murder or manslaughter etc. Whatever deal he got should be void and he deemed an unreliable source forever. Then again I would love to see all CIs go away forever.

 

[marshaul]

Knock Warrant: Knock-Knock, "POLICE!", CRASH, BOOM-BOOM-BOOM = 6 seconds
No-Knock Warrant: CRASH, BOOM-BOOM-BOOM = 3 seconds

The problem is not so much the type of warrant...

I'm going to have to disagree here.

I don't care about how long a no-knock warrant takes, but it should never be allowed without imminent physical harm or destruction of evidence for a real crime, like murder. No amount of crack down the toilet justifies a no-knock raid.

In all other cases, officers should be required to wait until the door is answered, they develop exigent circumstance, or maybe a full minute has passed.

 

[Gunslinger]

I know he can't be charged with murder or manslaughter etc. Whatever deal he got should be void and he deemed an unreliable source forever. Then again I would love to see all CIs go away forever.

Making a false statement under oath is a felony in VA and carries a possible 5 year sentence. The cop is equally liable for relying on it, assuming it ever existed except in the Stormtrooper's mind...

 

[We-the-People]

Ya know, there was another similar thread about a former marine being killed in a raid. Then someone looked up the affidavit for the warrant and linked it. After reading the document, it has become clear that this former marine is currently a drug dealer.

Can anyone link the affidavit for the warrant in this case? Let's don't paint these folks as heroes or harmless until we have the facts.

Not trying to hijack the thread but affadavits can be full of BULLS__t and still bring a SEAT team kicking in your door. It wasn't clear to me at all that Jose Guerna (the former Marine) was a drug dealer and I've read and digested the affadavit for the search warrant.

Here's the link to THAT affadavit:
http://www.kvoa.com/files/Scanned%20Document0582_000.pdf

Long story short....JOSE Guerna was arrested but never convicted on some felony charges that included personal possession of marijuana and "misconduct with firearms".....BUT NOT CONVICTED.....anyone on OCDO ever get a bogus firearms rap?

Oh and he was in a truck that had plastic wrap in the back....as a passenger.

And let's not forget he was "very uncooperative" when cops arrested two guys after they showed up at a house he was at......can you say "Am I being detained"....."What crime am I being detained for"....."none of your business"....etc??? Anyone here on OCDO????

And don't follow any suspicious vehicles casing your neighborhood....they might be cops on a surveilance just doing drive bys.

Oh and don't talk on the phone while you're driving in the area of your home....that's affadavit material as well.

The affadavit in this case is probably just as full of caca as the one in the Jose Guerna case. But they'll spin any and everything they can to "justify" kicking in an old mans door and gunning him down when they could have very easilly have knocked during the day, or waited until he headed to the bar, or any of a number of other possibilities.

SWAT teams and military tactics are NOT APPROPRIATE in the vast majority of cases in which they are being employed. I'm all for officers going home at the end of their day, every day, but their job has risks and they knew it going in. Using military tactics on citizens is NOT JUSTIFIED in the vast majority of cases in which they are employed.

 

[LibertyDeath]

I'm going to have to disagree here.

I don't care about how long a no-knock warrant takes, but it should never be allowed without imminent physical harm or destruction of evidence for a real crime, like murder. No amount of crack down the toilet justifies a no-knock raid.

In all other cases, officers should be required to wait until the door is answered, they develop exigent circumstance, or maybe a full minute has passed.

Well the problem lies in that our courts have allowed this type of actions. Not to mention Congress started this asinine War on Drugs.

 

[Gunslinger]

I'm going to have to disagree here.

I don't care about how long a no-knock warrant takes, but it should never be allowed without imminent physical harm or destruction of evidence for a real crime, like murder. No amount of crack down the toilet justifies a no-knock raid.

In all other cases, officers should be required to wait until the door is answered, they develop exigent circumstance, or maybe a full minute has passed.

I don't believe it was no-knock in the first place. The SS just kicked the door in because the old man didn't answer in 3 seconds and their trigger fingers where getting itchy.
There is an important lesson learned here: if the guns were taken away from the people, the streets--and private property of the subjects, would be safe for the SS. Now let's see, I can't quite remember who first suggested that...

 

[HandyHamlet]

Not trying to hijack the thread but affadavits can be full of BULLS__t and still bring a SEAT team kicking in your door.

How DARE you. The Judge, Jury, and Executioner of this forum has made his ruling. And it is DEATH!

:uhoh:

 

[Jim675]

I'm going to have to disagree here.

I don't care about how long a no-knock warrant takes, but it should never be allowed without imminent physical harm or destruction of evidence for a real crime, like murder. No amount of crack down the toilet justifies a no-knock raid.

In all other cases, officers should be required to wait until the door is answered, they develop exigent circumstance, or maybe a full minute has passed.

I agree. The point I was trying to make is that as things currently work the police are hardly being impaired when they do not get a no-knock. Either way the homeowner is going to quickly lose a door, maybe a dog or two, and perhaps a great deal more.

 

[marshaul]

See below. You are correct.


Well actually...

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/08/1...dmother-shot-botched-drug-raid/#ixzz1Q1fC32Bn

Didn't hear about that one. Still, though, how often does the FBI bother to get involved?

It does confirm my belief that the value of the FBI is directly and solely a function of the extent to which it investigates corrupt government employees. Criminal law governing private individual conduct should come from the states.

 

[Gunslinger]

Didn't hear about that one. Still, though, how often does the FBI bother to get involved?

It does confirm my belief that the value of the FBI is directly and solely a function of the extent to which it investigates corrupt government employees. Criminal law governing private individual conduct should come from the states.

Yeah, but who's going to burn innocent women and children alive, then? Or sell out their country for cash? Or prance around in a dress...

 

[Deanimator]

Didn't hear about that one. Still, though, how often does the FBI bother to get involved?

It does confirm my belief that the value of the FBI is directly and solely a function of the extent to which it investigates corrupt government employees. Criminal law governing private individual conduct should come from the states.

The FBI ONLY got involved in the Atlanta PD's murder of Kathryn Johnston because the confidential informant from whom the Atlanta PD suborned perjury dove out of a moving police car and ran TO the FBI, justifiably in fear of his OWN life.

Had not that informant gone to the FBI, the Atlanta PD would have found itself blameless, and sold the "fable" that Kathryn Johnston was a "drug dealer". There were people on OCDO who blithely proclaimed Johnston a "drug dealer" who "had it coming". To this day, I've seen nary an admission of error from them, much less a WORD of condemnation for her killers in the Atlanta PD.

 

[eye95]

"Clear"?

If you look at the warrant affidavit for the Kathryn Johnston raid, it's "clear" that SHE was a "drug dealer". The funny thing is, the affidavit was a morass of perjury and she WASN'T a "drug dealer".

If we're going to determine guilt based on a warrant affidavit, why even have a trial? I mean, cops NEVER lie in warrant affidavits... except when they do.

No one is "determining guilt" based on the affidavit, just the legitimacy of the warrant. It is amazing how folks jumping to conclusions in the matter think that someone rationally looking at information that is finally presented in the thread is "determining guilt." The only "determining [of] guilt" going on around here is on the part of the folks who are clearly pre-disposed to be anti-LEO in all matters--even when none of that information has been put before a judge, as affidavits for warrants have been.

Moving on.

 

[eye95]

And who is to say he would? The point is, they had a search--NOT arrest, warrant against an older man, disabled with evidently no record or reason to suspect him of violence. They could have knocked on his door and waited a reasonable time for him to come down stairs--with his cane! and open the ******* door. But they didn't. They smashed in the door, guns drawn and ready to execute this man. And they did. He was murdered in his own home--accused of nothing, by SS thugs in their clown suits. And because he 'may' have sold some prescription drugs he obtained legally. "Confidential informant" is the recurring lie the Gestapo relied on and so do their progeny. Being denounced by a criminal, which the vast majority of 'informants' are, is a sentence of death, evidently, in VA. Too bad the old guy didn't have an M-4 loaded with M855s.

They had no reason to suspect the man of violence--until he shot at the officers!!

 

[eye95]

...Here's the link to THAT affadavit:
http://www.kvoa.com/files/Scanned%20Document0582_000.pdf...

Folks, read that affidavit for yourselves. Yeah, some here mention one or two items for a huge affidavit that, in and of themselves, don't seem like grounds. But read the WHOLE thing. ALL of the attestations. See if you don't end up believing what I believe. The guy is a drug dealer. Heck, the information in the affidavit is almost enough to get me, as a juror, to vote to convict, let alone for a judge simply to approve a search warrant.

This guy was not just a former marine. He was a criminal engaged in ongoing criminal enterprise.