King County Experiences

[joeroket]

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I wonder what Tukwila Ordinance hw was referring to? They don't have one that deals with possession or carrying of firearms except that they adopted the RCW's that deal with it.

 

[sandy]

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joeroket wrote:

I wonder what Tukwila Ordinance he was referring to? They don't have one that deals with possession or carrying of firearms except that they adopted the RCW's that deal with it.

He never quoted one, I'm sure because there isn't one. He was power tripping, because he thought what I was doing was irresponsible and wrong. Therefore it "should" be illegal, so he should be able to hassle me as much as he wants. He was making ungrounded non-specific threats.

I've already spoken with Lonnie, who says he will follow up on the training bulletin side. This department was supposed to have already issued one, which means either it was not in fact issued, or the two officers responding had not read it.

--Sandy (WA)

PS - For those lurking, I don't want to give the impression that my experiences are always negative. I open carry ALL THE TIME outside of work, but I'm only posting about it when something noteworthy happens. This sort of thing really is the less common experience. Most of the time, even in malls, nothing dramatic happens. I hope that as I keep doing this, we will all be safer to OC in populated areas.

 

[TRAKATAK]

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"Local laws can make open carry illegal, and if we want to we can arrest you on a Tukwila ordinance and let the courts sort it out later."



Interesting that they still believe this. My wife just received her CPL about3 weeks ago and when I looked at the form that was filled out at the courthouse and then sent with her permit is reads in black and white...

"Local laws and ordinances on firearms are pre-empted by state laws and must be consistent with state law."Yes, it is even in bold type on the form.

I have considered carrying this around in my pocket in the odd chance that I ever get approached and that kind of crap gets slung my way.

 

[Gray Peterson]

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I checked Tukwila's ordinances, specifically Chapter 8.10 (Firearms), No open carry ban.

 

[amlevin]

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sandy wrote: They stated: "Local laws can make open carry illegal, and if we want to we can arrest you on a Tukwila ordinance and let the courts sort it out later."



And this is the attitude of more than one PD in Washington. "We can detain, cite, or arrest you and let the court sort it out." In other words we can make life miserable for you with great expense on your part.

You may not ultimately see the inside of a courtroom but it will take more than a few dollars spent on an attorney to get it resolved.

This seems to be the general attitude of Officers and Deputies I talk to in "less than gun friendly" jurisdictions.

Like I posted several months ago, harassment is alive and well.

 

[YOPD]

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Lonnie Wilson wrote:

I do not believe WA has a stop and ID statute. Our state constitution's protections are higher than the federal constitution in this regard.

First post. Howdy!


The police might be operating under Terry v. Ohio.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_stop

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_v._Ohio

If someone calls the police, then thestatecould argue that there is a belief that a crime may have been committed, as the general public usually does not call the police except in that kind of circumstance, a crime or possible crime has been or is being committed.



I'm not saying it's right, but it's case law, and it's old.

 

[amlevin]

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YOPD wrote:

Lonnie Wilson wrote:

I do not believe WA has a stop and ID statute. Our state constitution's protections are higher than the federal constitution in this regard.

First post. Howdy!


The police might be operating under Terry v. Ohio.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_stop

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_v._Ohio

If someone calls the police, then thestatecould argue that there is a belief that a crime may have been committed, as the general public usually does not call the police except in that kind of circumstance, a crime or possible crime has been or is being committed.



I'm not saying it's right, but it's case law, and it's old.

And it becomes a convenient "Shield" for the officer when asked why you are being stopped. They usually reply something like "You fit the description of -----" or "We have received several complaints from ----". The Oldtimers have a whole list of "Reasons" and they share them with all the "Newbies". It isn't policy but that doesn't make it nonexistant.

 

[YOPD]

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Howdy again!

I just found this, which appears to say that the police must have more than some anonymous tip about a person to even stop them in the first place, but there is some language about "concealed crime", which open carry isn't like at all.

http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/pdf/98-1993P.ZO

It's a PDF file, you'll either need a PDF reader or better, oryou need thisGoogle linkto see the html version.

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:JjFp9h7UHQIJ:supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/pdf/98-1993P.ZO+florida+v+JL&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=us

 

[gregma]

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YOPD wrote:

First post. Howdy!

Welcome to OpenCarry YOPD! Please join us tomorrow for our lunch/get together if you can make it!

Thanks!
Greg

 

[Stealth Potato]

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Howdy all, another newcomer here!

I will be getting my CPL in the near future, but I do intend to open carry at some point, mainly because it would be really uncomfortable having to wear a jacket or similar article of clothing at all times!

I'm disappointed to see that so many PDs are so hostile towards open carry; I do hope we can be successful in educating more people about its legality and safety.

The officer in Tukwilla was wrong, of course, since state firearms law preempts all local law, with few exceptions as have already been discussed in this thread. I'm sure some of you are already familiar with the guy who was charged and convicted for carrying openly in Ellensburg, and who successfully had his conviction overturned on appeal because of precisely that fact. Sadly, "arrest 'em and let the courts sort it out" may continue to be a realistic threat as long as the current environment of ignorance and hostility persists...

 

[YOPD]

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Does anyone carry SCotUS cases in their wallet/pocket computer to show LE in case of a confrontation, or would this just be inflammatory at the time of the confrontation?

 

[Gray Peterson]

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Stealth Potato wrote:

Howdy all, another newcomer here!

I will be getting my CPL in the near future, but I do intend to open carry at some point, mainly because it would be really uncomfortable having to wear a jacket or similar article of clothing at all times!

I'm disappointed to see that so many PDs are so hostile towards open carry; I do hope we can be successful in educating more people about its legality and safety.

The officer in Tukwilla was wrong, of course, since state firearms law preempts all local law, with few exceptions as have already been discussed in this thread. I'm sure some of you are already familiar with the guy who was charged and convicted for carrying openly in Ellensburg, and who successfully had his conviction overturned on appeal because of precisely that fact. Sadly, "arrest 'em and let the courts sort it out" may continue to be a realistic threat as long as the current environment of ignorance and hostility persists...

Tukwila PD screwed up severaly, not to mention the administration of Tukwila PD dropped the ball with the training advisory that they were supposed to send out.

 

[yesterdaysgone]

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carried open all weekend, here are a few businesses, and respective responses:

Kohl's Covington: no problem, other than looks, did not get any attention

iron grill covington: went there for dinner, whole time i ate no attention. then, as i got up to leave, the manager thanked me for stopping in, did a double take, and then said "oh, i didn't see that you had a concealed weapon, i can't allow you in here with that." i told her that it was not concealed, and asked her why it was not permitted. she said "because we serve alcohol". i told her that the law only applied to areas of a facility that were restricted by the liquor control board to 21 and over, like taverns, bars, etc. i told her that since children were seated and eating in the restaraunt, it was perfectly legal for me to have my firearm. she thanked me for informing her of that, and i wished her well and left.

Safeway Renton: Asked by a customer why my firearm was not concealed, in a very confrontational tone. responded that it is legal to openly carry a firearm in washington state, as long as it is legal for you to posess a firearm. he said "oh, i did not know that." i wished him a good day, and said i was glad i could inform him, and continued out. no problem with store employees or management. got to my car and was approached by two undercover security. they asked me why i had a firearm, told me that i was not allowed to carry openly. i talked to them about the law, policies, etc. good conversation, went well, they thanked me for the information etc, and we said goodbyes, and i left. came back later that afternoon, and they were still there, said hi to me and left me alone. i approached the manager on duty before i left, and asked him to pass along a thankyou to the security staff for being polite, professional, etc. he said he would pass it along, and said "thanks for shopping, etc, come back again"

sportsmen's wherehouse: no problems there...

a few other here-and-theres, not worthy of mention... all in all a productive weekend, got to talk to a couple of people. conversations were summmarized, all were actually pretty informative.

 

[Gray Peterson]

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YOPD, can you use TinyURL and edit that link please? It's messing with the width of the page.

Had interesting experiences. I spoke with two security officers at Crossroads Mall in Bellevue. I used a bit of a wierd situation, in the sense of "I saw a man open carrying a few weeks ago leaving the mall, I generally conceal carry because I knew the mall had no specific rule, is that normal for here"?

As far as the security officers were concerned, they had no issue with it. As long as I am in compliance with state law and not directly threatening anyone with it, they were ok with it. One of them even open carries in Kent. Needless to say, I asked for a personal email and gave them the Kent and Bellevue bulletins, as well as a link to opencarry.org and pnwopencarry.

Now, I was still concealed carrying in the mall because some of the company I was with might have freaked out. The ones I knew for certain who would throw a fit did leave, and it was getting warmer.

I had wrapped my jacket around my belt to continue concealing. One of the group had spotted it, and that point I said "#$% it" and I tossed the jacket aside and continued the conversation while open carrying. I thought for certain that security or Bellevue PD would get called.

As you can see, even I get self conscious about open carry in social situations.

 

[expvideo]

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Hiked Rattlesnake Ledge with my fiancee Taylor, my little brother Jared and our puppy Summer. No problems, new Galco holster The guy that took the pic asked "what's with the gun" I just told him it was for protection. He asked what the laws were regarding carrying guns in Washington. I told him that you can carry a gun concealed with a permit or openly without and directed him to packing.org. Good encounter, he seemed fine with the idea and shared some trail mix with us.

 

[metricinch]

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REALLY LONG POST!!! there is a TLDR version at the bottom.

As I am still quite new to the OCing scene I am still finding the need to talk it through. And since I reside in King County it seems most appropriate to post my ramblings here.




On Friday my buddy and I went to It's Greek to Me in Fed Way for lunch. It was not very busy, so the waitress was able to give us her full attention as we walked in. She didn't seem to bat an eye. I had the lamb gyros and man it was good. If you like Greek food I can highly recommend that place. Make sure you try the Greek Fries! Mmnn feta...

From there we went to Federal Way Discount Guns. I picked myself up a Surefire E2D. Pure hawt! Sixty lumens and strike bezels!?! Yes please! They also have it for sale about $30 under MSRP, so that made it just that much harder to argue with.

Today I was all over the place.

I started out at Barney's Jewelry and Loan looking for replacement speakers for my trucks as thieves made off with the speakers out of both of my trucks. The old guy noticed but didn't seem to care. He didn't have any speakers but made me a deal on a C.B. radio to replace the one that was stolen out of the Datsun when the truck was stolen in Feb. I still get hot when I think about them stealing my truck and my stuff and then my having to pay $250 to get my own truck out of impound!

After Barney's I hit Seattle Jewelry & Loan down the street. Everyone noticed here. I think it started in the parking lot with a younger employee who saw me get out of the truck, I think he gave the others a heads up. I walked around inside looking at what they had, waiting for the guy that was ringing up a customer to finish. As he was showing me some speakers I pointed out had a bad cone on a pair JBL's. He called over one of his guys to tell them that they need to watch out for stuff like that when they take it in. The guy he called over asked me if I was a LEO. I told him no that I was just a citizen who likes to stay safe. He said he asked because normally you have to conceal. I told him that OC is legal that it makes the bad guys think twice. He then stated that he just wanted to make sure I was not a bank robber. I asked if I looked like a bank robber and if we were in a bank. He laughed and said no, keep in mind I was wearing a nicely faded pair of 501's and an orange button shirt from Columbia! They had some speakers that fit the bill. A nice pair of MB Quart DKD 116 and a pair of JVC 6x9's. I paid up and thanked the guy that helped me. He told me to come back and get a four way amp when I get around to it. As I was walking out another employee kinda pulled me back with conversation stating that the guy who helped me is the stereo guy and that he really knows his stuff. This led to my hanging around inside for a few more minutes. Everyone told me to have a good day, and I wished them the same.

I was going to head to Sounds on Wheels in Burien, but apparently they have moved or are no longer in business. So I made a command decision to head into the crucible that is Tukwila and hit the Car Toys on South Center Pkwy. I figured I would be OK with the employees there as I have spent a small fortune there. I walked in and a lady asked if I needed some help, I asked if my usual sales guy was in and she stated he left to become a real estate agent a few weeks ago. So she helped me out with a quote and selling me some speaker enclosures. Not sure if she noticed, but a few of the other sales guys did. On my way out I had my arms pretty well stacked up and a customer opened the door for me. I know he had noticed my OCing because my strong side was to him while I was standing at the counter. I smiled and nodded at him when I noticed that he was looking at me. As he was pushing the door open he said "Here let me get the door for you." I thanked him and loaded my booty into the truck.

Onto Trader Joe's! I found my usual shady parking spot(gotta keep the hound cool) and as I was getting out of the truck I noticed that the MDX parked next to me had a dog in the back. I pointed this out to Abigail. I then saw that the passenger side rear door was open and no one was in the car or around it. Once inside I walked up to one of the guys on the floor and asked if they had an intercom so he could make an announcement. He said they did and that he would have someone do it. I went about my shopping. Some fresh mozzarella and spinach and a tasty blood orange soda. As I was standing in the check out the gentleman behind me asked the checker where the hash browns were. I almost offered to show him, but the checker gave him directions. As he was walking away I commented that he should get some crumpets too. The checker's eyes lit up, and she asked me if I had been to the Crumpet Store in downtown. I told her no and asked her if I could get them fried in bacon fat. At this point the hash brown guy came back and joined in the conversation. I am not sure if she picked up on the OC, but hash brown man sure did. He took it in stride though. It is amazing how polite and friendly people have been! Heinleinin in action! I finished up my transaction and headed out to the truck. The people who owned the MDX were loading up. I told them about the door and that I had asked them to make an announcement that never came. They thanked me and explained that they had sent the eight year old to get the reusable bags that they had forgotten. I told them that I had thought about waiting for them to come out, but figured the dog was probably enough deterant. They thanked me. The wife after seeing my OC stated that it was nice to see that there are still good people out here. I told her that there are a few of us around. I smiled waved as I pulled away and they smiled and waved back.

Next I stoped in at Duane's Garden Patch for some cherry tomatoes and corn on the cob(going to be making a kind of Caprese salad for the family reunion tomorrow). Plenty of people including the owner noticed. Everyone was polite and friendly.

I came home and chated with the maintenance guy at my apartment complex for a bit. He is a cool guy who hails from South Dakota originally. He and I are supposed to go fishing at some point down the road. As I was walking back to my truck I saw another neighbor. I asked him if he was aware that the gang of kids that run around the complex were all over his car the other day. He said that they have scratched the paint a few times, and since it is one of those crazy iridescent paint jobs it is expensive to have them fixed. I told him that I would come get him next time. He indicated my weapon and asked if I was FBI. I laughed and explained OC to him. He was intrigued with the whole thing.

Fed the dog, put my speakers together and installed my C.B. Turned out that I needed a male to male coupler because the extra cable that I had was female on one end and male on the other. The asshat that stole the C.B. just cut the antenna coax rather than unscrewing it. Since the gf had just gotten home we ran to Radio Shack. As we were pulling into the Safeway complex I noticed four KCSO cruisers. They were in one of the restaurants. I was strong side to the glass and just walked on past while chatting with the gf, no Deputies running out to hassle me. Radio Shack had what I wanted. In and out no problems. No problems with the KCSO on the way back out either.

While we were out we went to Ivar's for some dinner. Plenty of people had to have noticed while we were ordering and they were waiting for their to go orders. One of the men was looking at me while he was walking out. I smiled and nodded and he did like wise. Got up to go to the bathroom before the food arrived. No hassles here either!

Came home, finished up the C.B. install put my salad together and am currently watching Foodnetwork and working on what may be the longest post of this whole thread!

TLDR; I OC'd all over the Burien/White Center/Tukwila area today and had no problems. In fact people were noticeably more polite and friendly than they are when I am not OCing!

-Kevin

 

[cut_cutta]

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metricinch wrote:

While we were out we went to Ivar's for some dinner. Plenty of people had to have noticed while we were ordering and they were waiting for their to go orders. One of the men was looking at me while he was walking out. I smiled and nodded and he did like wise. Got up to go to the bathroom before the food arrived. No hassles here either!

Awesome. Glad to know nobody hassled you at Ivar's, because Skipper's kicked me out today for OCing. Atleast I can still go somewhere for some cheap chowder and sea food : )

 

[metricinch]

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Yeah and it taste's better than Skipper's! I had the chowder bowl. It was pretty good.