King County Experiences

[Mike]

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These experioences are very rare, but do happen.I was asked to illegally conceal in a VA restaurant one time...or leave; my whole party left as about $120 worth of food was arriving; I never paid, not even for the drinks we had drunk, and I made sure the incident resulted in a TV news item a few days later.

If it had been me at the Wendys, I would have refused to conceal but offered to leave right away...after my refund of course. Whihc meant for the next 5 minutes I would have been standing by the cash register open carrying as the manager caused a scene for himself.

 

[44Brent]

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If you want to go back and have a "do over", I'll be happy to join you. If we don't get it right the second time, maybe we can find a few more people to join us in "do overs".

Practice makes perfect

 

[sandy]

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I don't post the uneventful outings much but, sinceit's relevant now, I'll add that Wendy's in Woodinville has seen meand my kids a LOT. Several times employees questioned me about the gun, but they never had a problem with the simple answers.I've also had some very nice conversations with thecustomers there. My favorite conversation was with a couple of teenagers who were helping entertain my kids before they noticed. The teens were dressed pretty outrageously, but seemed a good sort. They asked all the "why" questions that most adults are too polite to ask. It gave me the opportunity to really explain the legal issues, and that keeping my family safe is my responsibility. They seemed to take it in a very positive way. I also reminded them that carrying a gun isn't legal for them until they're older.

Anyway, Wendy's has never been a problem for me.

--Sandy (WA)

 

[Mike]

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44Brent wrote:

If you want to go back and have a "do over", I'll be happy to join you. If we don't get it right the second time, maybe we can find a few more people to join us in "do overs".

Practice makes perfect

An interesting suggestion - I think do overs are appropriate in places like a WalMart where a junior level manager or employee tells you to leave if armed without clear authority to do so.

In this case apparently THE manager of a small establishment made the call - so, I think best option is for Lonnie to work the issue theregional manager, and lert it be known that OCPACNW (Open Carry Pacific Northwest) will institute a boycott on that Wendy's until the situation is clarified.

Talking points to the regional manager should include the inherent unfairness of manager treatment of the patron for mere lawful conduct where the conduct is not conspicuously posted as proscribed - under common law contract rules, the manager was adding a term to the implied contract after accepting the patron's buinsess - that is BS in my book.

 

[lockman]

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Except Lonnie, I would think it is appropriate for others to continue to patronize the establishment. Otherwise I agree with Mike’s suggestion.

 

[44Brent]

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In this case apparently THE manager of a small establishment made the call - so, I think best option is for Lonnie to work the issue theregional manager, and lert it be known that OCPACNW (Open Carry Pacific Northwest) will institute a boycott on that Wendy's until the situation is clarified.

Mike, I don't think that OCPACNW is big enough to make a dent in their business. There are a couple of reasons why I don't think it is worth thinking about a boycott at this time:

• There is no signage on Wendy's telling law abiding citizens to stay out. From Lonnie's description, there was only a verbal notice, which means it's an ad-hoc bigotry on the part of a manager, assuming that the person really was a manager.
• I'm not used to people telling me to conceal or stay out, in fact it has never happened to me. I would like to have a chance to experience this phenomena in person, rather than simply reading about other individuals' stories.

Multiple people will benefit from "do overs":

1. The individuals at Wendy's who will eventually figure out that they are wasting time and energy harassing law abiding citizens.
2. Open carriers as we practice ways of deflecting the verbal barbs of bigotry. It's easy to think of things we could/should have said after the fact. But until you are faced with the bigotry, who knows what we'll do?

Wendy's has identified itself as a place where open carriers can practice their verbal skills on a daily basis and get some juicy burgers, all at the same time.

If you aren't familiar with "do overs", watch the movie Groundhog Day with Bill Murray.

 

[Mike]

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OK Brent, if they do not post, I see your point for non-do-overs by non-Lonnies

Boycotts are always almost symbolic - but if you are a reghuional manager do you want thear abot a boycott? ugh-agh, as they say.

 

[DeuceWild]

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So I live in back diamond. I would like to know if I can open carry. I have asked Black Diamond but they never have given me a direct answer. I had went down and bought my CPL and a Glock. but i like to open carry since i open carry all the time since im an MP in the army. i just dont want to open carry in black diamond or other parts of washingtion and find out that i cant. since i dont know much about the open carry laws. i know were i can't carry. my friends said they open carry in the supermall but. still im kinda scard to open carry. i would like a group of people that open carry all the time everywere in seattle and get togeather and open carry. so i can get used to it. cause if someone were to call the police i would kinda be scard of getting arrested.

 

[adamwa]

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I am ok for a group opencarry. email me adam at hendershots dot com if you get some interest

 

[Mike]

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DeuceWild wrote:

So I live in back diamond. I would like to know if I can open carry. I have asked Black Diamond but they never have given me a direct answer. I had went down and bought my CPL and a Glock. but i like to open carry since i open carry all the time since im an MP in the army. i just dont want to open carry in black diamond or other parts of washingtion and find out that i cant. since i dont know much about the open carry laws. i know were i can't carry. my friends said they open carry in the supermall but. still im kinda scard to open carry. i would like a group of people that open carry all the time everywere in seattle and get togeather and open carry. so i can get used to it. cause if someone were to call the police i would kinda be scard of getting arrested.

I recommend you stop asking local officials for legal conclusions on OC -localities are preempted in WA state on firearms carry anyway, but if you find an ordiance banning OC in Black Diamondm, ask your council to repeal it because it is invalid.

You should peruse the WA state discussion threads for inferences as to WA state law, and you might want to join http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pnwopencarry- a group dedicated to OC issues in OR and WA.

 

[Gray Peterson]

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Your friends said that they open carried at the supermall? Considering they have a rule against it, I'd say they're full of crap unless they're a law enforcement officer.

I did a little research into Black Diamond City (it's actually pretty close to Federal Way). They don't even have a website or a phone number to call. It's a small little city.

You said that you heard that it was illegal to open carry. Who did you hear it from? Black Diamond PD? Give me some more details so we can track down this non-sense and deal with it.

 

[Mike]

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Lonnie Wilson wrote:

Your friends said that they open carried at the supermall? Considering they have a rule against it, I'd say they're full of crap unless they're a law enforcement officer.

My experience is that malls don't always enforce their own rules, or always spot OC rule violations, and that continued opposition to, and refusal to acknowledge and obey, a mall OC ban rule can lead management to change the rules

 

[Gray Peterson]

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I still haven't contacted Wendys yet, I've been too busy with work and holiday obligations and so on.

However I did have a good encounter at the Winco Foods Store in Kent. They are a 24 hour grocery store that has really good and cheap foods, and I constantly shop there.

I was open carrying without my coat on, which makes it generally more visible (it wasn't that cold) outside and it was a short walk.

I had a Winco employee in Kent, a floor cleaner, who is african-american and asked me where I got my "permit". I advised him that open carry doesn't require a permit on foot, however it was required in order to carry in ones car, which makes a permit in general neccesary. I asked him why he was wondering where I got mine after I told him I got it from King County (though I misspoke, I actually got it from Federal Way however I have paid for 3 CPL's for others from King County Sheriffs).

He was interested in getting one himself, and I had asked him if he lived in an incorporated city. He stated that he lived on unincorporated land (where the sheriff patrols) so I advised him that King County Sheriff was his only option, because if he were a city resident he could apply to either his city PD or sheriffs office. I also advised that non-residents of Washington may apply at any jurisdiction.

He also asked me if I were hassled by law enforcement for open carry. I told him that the last time I was hassled by law enforcement for open carry was 2 years ago in Des Moines, and then I showed him the training bulletin from Federal Way, plus the Des Moines letterhead advisory. He was shocked to see it, and I told him that many other cities locally are the path to issue them soon, including Kent.

He also told me that he had seen open carry in Florida rather commonly among some military officers when he lived there and had family members in the service. I advised him that Florida was one of the 6 banned open carry states, and if the enlisted or officers were carrying not on an official duty and not on military property, they were likely committing a second degree misdemeanor, though I did state that most police officers would see someone in a military uniform open carry and make an assumption that they were above board, or perhaps didn't even know that open carry was illegal. I also told him that efforts were hopefully underway to rectify Florida and to make it a no license required or licensed open carry state.

He seemed really interested in what I had to say. I told him to apply for his CPL at 3rd and Cherry Street at the King County Courthouse so that he can walk in, get it done, and walk out, and get his license 30 days later.

Very good encounter.

 

[sandy]

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Just a little update. The past two weekends have each taken me to Alderwood Mall in Lynnwood again, and I had no trouble either week. The photo place at JC Penney didn't seem to mind at all. Nobody called mall security on me, despite hours in the mall including a meal. I'm getting quite used to this.

This time of year it's still cold enough that I always conceal under a jacket when I enter a building. But when I've been inside enough long enough to get warm, the jacket comes off. This means most people get a chance to meet me first, and notice the gun second. This is by far the best situation for keeping people from freaking out.

My confidence is also somewhat higher now that I've had two encounters with police over OC, and I know how I can respond better. I have also added a police training bulletin andRCW 9A.36.070 to the short gun law summary in my wallet, in case I need to remind an officer not to get too heavy-handed in his threats.

Finally, I want to thank Lonnie again for all his hard work. You are appreciated. Next time we meet for lunch, I'm buying.

--Sandy (WA)

 

[Gray Peterson]

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Just an FYI: Alderwood Mall in Lynnwood has a rule against weapons possession.

I will take you up on that lunch offer. Just send me a PM and I'll send you my cell.

 

[BoydK31]

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OK I plan on OC for the first time today. I am a little nervous I guess since I usually go CC but it is getting a little warmer and for me it makes more sense to OC. I will most likely be bouncing around Issaquah and maybe take a trip out to the Snoqualmie valley. I shall be back with a full sitrep.

 

[BoydK31]

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GOOD first time. I started at my favorite cafe in the Issaquah highlands and at first it was a little odd, i was actually really nervous, but all was well. I then went to the local Gamestop to preorder an Xbox game, Petsmart, my eye doctor ...the very nice lady said "you have a gun in your pocket. ..Its scary." I simply and very nicely said "no, its in a holster and I carry it to protect my family" also i said that I usually carry it CC but since it is getting warmer out i chose to carry OC. she really didnot seem worried about it but more surprised. After I tried on my glasses I went to subway in Klahanie and went home to eat my food. All in all i was very plaesed. I almost expected more worried people in the area but so far so good.

 

[sandy]

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Factoria Mall - Minor OC Incident at Kids Quest

I took the family to Factoria Mall today. We first went to KidsQuest Children's Museum to play. The kids got good and wet at the water tables, and had lots of fun climbing around in the other play areas. They especially enjoyed driving the big truck. After about an hour and a half of play time, we were thinking of leaving to get lunch. Just then, a mall security guard came up to me in the cab of the truck and said "Some folks have said that you have a weapon." I replied with a smile "Of course." He predictably asked me if I might leave it in my car or something, because some people were a little apprehensive. I replied "It's safer here with me than in my car, where it might get stolen. I don't want to have to leave it in the car." He said that it was really because of all the children that people were uncomfortable. I replied "And I have it for the same reason: because of the children." He nodded agreement, andgave up trying to convince me, saying "I'm sorry, I'm just in the middle here." He seemed a little flustered, like he didn't know which side to be on or how to proceed. In any case, he was convinced I wasn't a bad guy, and I could tell that he knew I was legal. He seemed generally supportive of my rights, but he also had a job to do. I offered "If you're making a request for me to take the gun outside, I'd really like the opportunity to say 'no thank you' and stay here playing with my kids."

He went back over to the store employees, and I kept playing with the kids for another ten minutes. We explored the musical area with the cool touch sensitive guitar. Finally, he and the manager came over, and said that I couldn't stay with the gun, and that it was store (not mall) policy. They said it was because of the children.

I said that since I was being asked to leave early against my will, would they be so kind as to offer me a refund of theadmission fee? The manager said that she couldn't do that, but could give us vouchers for a free admission in the future. I accepted. My wife will probably come back some day when I'm at work, and make good use of the vouchers. It all worked out well enough.

After leaving Kids Quest, we went to some stores in the mall including PetCo and Target, and then ate at Orange Julius. I never saw mall security again, and I had no further issues with anyone. We splurged a bit and spent a whole pile of money at Target, too. The mall did a good thing (for them) by allowing me to stay.

--Sandy (WA)

 

[sandy]

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Oh, I should add that there is a Bellevue Police Sub-Station inside the Factoria Mall. I had no contact with them. I noticed the stationbecause it's just outside of Target.

--Sandy (WA)

 

[sandy]

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SouthCenter Mall

Went to SouthCenter Mall with all the kids on Sunday to give my wife a nice break for Mother's Day. First order of business was to buy something at Things Remembered. They told me I had about an hour and half to wait for my custom engraved purchase.

We ate at Johnny Rocket in the mall, and then walked around looking for something sweet for dessert since we had so much time left to wait. This took me to the other end of the mall and back. When I was halfway back to Things Remembered, I noticed the Private Security Guards (so said their shoulder badges) swarming.

I could hear their radios reporting "man with a gun" and "do not engage." This explained why they avoided eye contact, and tried to stay back as far as they could. One by one, every guard in the mall passed me to join the swarm. I continued to Things Remembered, and asked how close my order was to being completed. I told the nice lady at the counter that security was freaking out, and that there was a good chance that I would be asked to leave early.

I was envisioning a SWAT call, and was quite concerned that security was handling this very badly by not even speaking to me. Fortunately, the Tukwila Police who responded were very professional. We talked, and I attempted to avoid having to give my ID. He insisted that he had several legal grounds to demand it, and did demand my ID and my CPL.Although he did not believe that OC was legal without a CPL (which he called acarry license), he allowed me to leave when my order was complete. After determining that he was not going to arrest me, we did discuss state preemption, OC vs CC, and the legality of OC.I don't think I made any headway with him. This is a police force that needs a training bulletin.

The mall security forces gave me their miniature printed rule card, and asked me to leave "for the day, and not return with the gun." The police officer said that he was not enforcing a no-trespass order, but that it would be better for me if I did not return to the mall with my gun "like that," implying that he thinks I should conceal in violation of the mall's policy. Clearly, this is OC discrimination in the guise of "don't ask don't tell."

Details: 5/13/2007 @ 3:05 - 3:30pm in the Things Remembered store at SouthCenter Mall. Officer "B. Jordan" responded first, and another officer joined him a little later.They stated: "Local laws can make open carry illegal, and if we want to we can arrest you on a Tukwila ordinance and let the courts sort it out later." He also refused to allow me to decline to provide identification. To my knowledge, he has no probable cause or reasonable suspicion of a crime committed based on the evidence he might have about me. Open carry is legal. There is no presumption of guilt.

--Sandy (WA)