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It's Your Call With Lynn Doyle Rescheduled - wed 12 NOV 9-10pm eastern time on Comcast's channel CN8

ixtow

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ixtow wrote:
I'm sure not all cops are like that. I just haven't met one yet.
Damn, even this forum takes part in the 'lie loudly and ignore the quiet truth' process....

Did we all not just watch a video in which the 2% to 11% figure was stated?

In order to achieve a number as low as 11%, and thusly, a delta of only 550% worse than civillians, statistically... I'm saying that, clearly, there must be a whole lot of cops who don't suck somewhere, compensating for those I've met across the state I live in, where being an egotistical dirtbag who can't shoot worth a damn is the norm. If it were as bad everywhere else as it is here, 11% would not be 11%. Not even close.

If you want to read between the lines, try not to add your own commentary, eh? You're putting words in my mouth.

I haven't been to the range in 2 years. It's just not safe with these people around. I doubt I'd do well in any competition. I also know I'd still wipe the walls with the fools I've stood next to who think they're oh so great just becasue they have a badge. And none of that nullifies the outrageously stupid breaches of gun safety rules I witness. Click, no bang? Yeah, look down the barrel... Pull the trigger a few more times while you're looking down the barrel. That double action won't hurt you.... I kid you not. It's like watching a really bad comedy sketch. Usually, the above is caused by failure to rack one into the chamber, so they are saved from darwin.... Turn it sideways, repeat trigger pull while it is pointing at the guy next to them (me). Curse the gun. Realize the chamber is empty.... lather, rinse, repeat....
 

KBCraig

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I finally got a chance to watch the video. I could only take it in small segments, because shows of that format make me nuts. I watched some of it Friday night, more this morning, then finished it this evening -- after we got back from my 5yo's soccer game. :D

No OC at the game, though: this is Texas, plus it was freezing cold today.

But, good job Meleanie. When you're on the set with three experienced media hounds, plus a professional moderator, you're doing good if you don't get completely bulldozed. And you certainly rose well above that level and held your own.
 

GarandFan

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Among other things, Bryan Miller and the detective seemed extremely uncomfortable with the idea of Melanie (and I assume anyone) "taking the law into their hands" or in "dealing with the situation" or with, as Bryan said "being the judge, jury, and executioner" all at the same time. It's as if they want everyone to be dependents, and as if they will not concede that all 50 states authorize the use of deadly force under various circumstances. And the trend is for states to be relaxing these circumstances, not tightening them. Why? I think, in a nutshell, that people are simply tired of violent criminals running about safely and getting away with what they do.



These are some of my somewhat abstract thoughts on vigilante justice (posted elsewhere), which of course Miller scorns to no end. But I think that he (and most others) have an unrealistically narrow definition of "vigilantism."

I think that most Americans have a really hard time grasping "vigilante justice" in that we put so much stock in "proven guilty." We pride ourselves in our justice system (tried by one's peers) and in mandating that people provide evidence that proves the guilt of the accused. Even those that support capital punishment are rightly concerned about "killing an innocent person." It's happened, and it really is disconcerting when a person's innocence is proven after they've been systematically killed by the justice system.

I actually read an interesting paper recently, by a prof at St. Louis University School of Law. He suggests the possibility that Heller (and other things like the pervasive and successfull concealed carry laws and the successes of castle doctrine type laws) might represent a trend toward "vigilante justice" but in the good sense of the term. Are you a vigilante for hunting down and killing a rapist after the fact, based on, say, a neighbor's description? Yes. Are you a vigilante for killing a rapist "in progress" in your own home? Yes. Here, one form of vigilatism (after the fact vigilatism) is scorned, and the other (immediate vigilantism) is justified and often lauded.

This is what I understand "vigilante" to mean: "A person who takes the law into his or her own hands," or "avenging a crime summarily, without recourse to lawful procedures."

Most people think of the second ... eg. lynch mobs who go out and find a suspect and hang them without trial. We scorn that, and we must continue to scorn that IMO. But the first part, taking the law into your own hands. What is wrong with that? Nothing. Even in Illinois the criminal code authorizes any of us to arrest, or to use deadly force, under certain circumstances. So if you wound or hurt a criminal during the course of an attack, you have very much "taken the law into your own hands." The law, actually, authorizes that citizen authority. So in this way, "vigilantism" is wolly legitimate, has been authorized by all 50 state legislatures, and has been endorsed by the Supreme Court of the United States.

Download the paper here: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1276374

Looked at from a socio-legal perspective, Heller’s invocation of self-defense not only sounds a warning for state gun bans, but reverses the federal government’s policy of what Jonathan Simon has called “governing through crime.” Since the 1960s, argues Simon, the federal government has used crime as an excuse to expand state power. Heller suggests the opposite is going on. Rather than expand state power, the Supreme Court is relinquishing it by avoiding further expansions of the criminal justice system in favor of using private violence as a legitimate means of crime control. This turn to private violence, or what Lawrence Friedman has called a “private system of criminal justice,” echoes America’s longstanding vigilante tradition, suggesting that even conservatives have begun to grow weary of America’s costly, statist prisonindustrial complex.
 

sraacke

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My spouse and I just watched the video.

Mel, you did a fantastic job in a very hectic setting.

As a person who always open carries it was almost painful to watch the video and hear some of the elitest viewpoints spouted by the police detective and the Ceasefire representative.



Things like (not actual quotes)- "She's just thinking of herself"... Wel, duh. Of course she's thinking of herself. I'm just thinking of myself. Everyone should be thinking about themselves. They paint her as being irresponsible for having the means to defend herself and her children. I believe it's the other parents who aren't armed who are being irresponsible. They have no means to protect themselves or their children should the need arise.



"You should call the highly trained SWAT team." As if being personally responsible is a sin. Next they would argue against having a fire extinguisher in your kitchen. Sure you may be able to put out a grease fire before it engulfs your entire house but since you aren't a highly trained company of firefighters you should just throw your fire extinguisher away.



"I have nothing against a concealed weapon, only the one I can see." My spouse caught this one. I love her because she gets it. The antis want to live in a fantasy world. So it's SEEING the gun that is the problem. Everybodystandingon the field could be carrying a concealed firearm in a purse, fanny pack or tucked under shirt and that would be fine with them. They could lie to themselves, sing It's a Small World After All and think that crime doesn't happen. But open carry means that suddenly they have to face the fact that the world is not a safe place. It also forces them to admit that they are not capable of doing what is necessary to defend their family. Seeing someone like Meliane open carry doesn't scare them. It embarasses them. They react to this by attacking the person who sees the world differently than them.



"There were kids around." There are ALWAYS kids around. Where ever you go in public there are going to be kids around. They are part of our society. They are exposed to the same dangers the rest of us are. Maybe even more.Being armed at soccer games, or anywhere else for that matter, doesn't put the kids in greater danger. It decreases the danger. Should a person with hostile intent try to target a group of kids and an armed adult such as Mel is nearby theattack can be countered. Instead of being able to attack a will the criminal may be confronted by citizens who can defend themselves and their children. This is a good thing.

"Soccer Field...Soccer game...soccer...soccer....." ENOUGH with the Soccer stuff. The fact is it doesn't matter where you were. It's not the setting. These anti protection sheep would still have a problem with seeing her armed anywhere.

"She was buying shoes at Payless with a gun on. Oh My God, there were children at Payless."

"Sweet Jesus. She actually had agun on in Pizza Hut. Is she nuts?I take my kids to Pizza Hut."

"I saw her walking her dog down the street the other day. Kids live in some of the houses on that street. What the heck was she thinking wearing a gun?"

Today the soccer field. Tommorrow, anywhere else. You can't win with this emotional insanity.

"The police will show up with machine guns and not know who to shoot so they will spray the crowd with automatic fire and then back out and call in an artillary strike on the soccer field. Just to be sure." Face it.By the time the cops show up to a shots fired call they will know who the bad guys are. Hopefully the bad guys will be laying face down in a pool of their own fluids and the good guy, or gal, will be the one standing there with a holstered pistol and hugging her children.



Good Grief.

I applaud her for going on TV and sticking up for her right to open carry.



I'm finished for now.
 

buster81

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Great job Melanie. Keep your head up and keep fighting for your rights. As is typical, these professional debaters through out stupid, hypothetical scenarios and put you on the defensive.

What would Brian do if he were in a situation in public where a gunman started shooting innocent people. If he were truly living up to his own standard, he should rush the gunman, and attack him with his bare hands and give his life to save others.If he were to run away, he would simply be thinking about only himself and be a hypocrite.

I think we all know which he is.
 

FMCDH

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Carl in Chicago wrote:
At any rate,sometimes the media does run these truthful stories. Check this out ...

http://www.wcpo.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=d26c29ff-f134-4202-bc40-947534a6de3c
That is an excellent article that explains the pattern of a flawed thought process. I especially find interesting that as of the time I read the article, there were 19 responses (a few from the same people) and not ONE of them was a dissenting voice to the truth of it. Gun free zones are a joke, and anyone with even a modicum hold of reality knows it.

I would suggest that ANYPLACE that insists on disarming citizens, MUST provide and guarantee the safety of those citizens through non invasive screening and having their own armed force on standby. They should also be forced to have a checking service for citizens firearms. A good example are federal buildings and state buildings in Washington State. (this is aimed at malls and other private properties that "ban" weapons of any kind)

We all know that wont happen however, as the cost of such a service would be highly prohibitive in the business sector for the most part, and impossible in situations like SFN is dealing with.

Another point of view... shooting someone in the process of a vilont crime is NOT vigilantyism. Vigilantyism is the process of taking the law into your own hands against a "suspect" of a crime or someone who has already been judged by the court and been handed a sentense for thier crime. Criminals caught in the process of a violent crime are nither suspect nore have they already been punished. We all know that the mass majority of violent crimes that are stopped by citizens are done within seconds of it beginning and are witnessed by the victum(s). There is no suspect involved when a man comes on to a soccor field and starts shooting children. It dosnt matter if he is mentally unstable, if he is retarded, if hes been drinking or on drugs, or even if he just had a bad day, he IS a criminal in the process of a crime. Period!

my $0.02
 

ixtow

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Carl in Chicago wrote:
This is what I understand "vigilante" to mean: "A person who takes the law into his or her own hands," or "avenging a crime summarily, without recourse to lawful procedures."

I'm always amazied how a peson can refer to our supposedly representative government, in which we vote for the law, and then refer to having the law in our own hands, where it rightly belongs, as a bad thing...

The true issue at hand is, how did it get removed, and why is putting it back where it belongs looked down upon? Did we not just experience an election in which our society attempted to do exxactly that, en mass? Arguments about how misguided their choice was asside, how can this point be obfuscated in the midst of exercising it?

You'd think Democrats, who's name is derived fromt he word "Democracy," would understand this... But it's just a empty word now. Missing this point, the very foundation of their existance, proves they have an agenda that their name is merely a guise for misdirection. Pay no attention to the man behind the iron curtain...

Using deadly force to give the good guys a leg up when being victimized, is not being a vigilante. It's being a responsible, mature, decent person.

The law rightly provides for this, because it is logical. That is your due process right there! The law was made for this very purpose, and it was made through representative due process.

Competence with a firearm is not difficult to achieve. Neither is the clarity of mind and reason to deduce when it is both lawfully and legally acceptable to use it. children have a better grasp of the matter than parents offended by their own deliberate inability to protect their own children.

"Mommy, why aren't I good enough to protect, but that lady thinks her kids are? Am I not special enough? Is it because I put a grilled cheese in the VCR? Why don't you love me as much as she loves her kids? She doesn't even know me and she cares about me more than you do!"

I wonder how many children are afraid to say this to their parents, because they'll be punished by the same viscious attitude these same parents direct at gun owners? If you're willing to endanger your children by placing arrogance, lies, and political agenda above them, I can't imagine what else you'll do to them to suit your ego...

My son IS smart enough to ask questions like that. Most kids are. But when parents exercise the same totalitarianism over their children as they wish they could over others... Mine has never asked me these questions; he doesn't have a reason to. But he has told other parents that he doesn't feel safe in their presence because they have chosen to be helpless. With little to no guidance from me, I might add.

One parent, who's children he no longer wishes to play with, loves to proclaim upon entering his home "I work for EMS, we haven't got any guns in the house" every time I go over to his place... Like we didn't hear it the first 10 times... He knows it's an insult and loves to talk about it. I guess he likes his job security, huh? Or maybe he just likes stitching up the good guys, so he doesn't have to worry about getting attacked himself? My son beat me to the punch; "Well, I don't want to stay for the sleepover." I asked him "Is endangering your children really worth the opportunity to deliver these insults every time we meet?" Of course, he responded with the typical lies about how I'm the danger, etc...

It really made him mad when his son came home from MY place after a sleepover, talking about how awesome it was that he got to shoot a bunch of guns in the back yard, and told his dad he was wrong about how dangerous and unsafe it is. ;-) You haven't lived until you watch a 50lb kid blast a coffee can with a Saiga .308. Totally puts to rest the lie that kids can't handle guns. Even truly powerful semi-auto rifles, not that pidly AR-15/AK-47 stuff. After emptying a 20rnd mag, all he said was "Wow, I'm out..." HA! From about 50yds, he put every round into about a 6 inch group. Standing, having never touched a gun before in his life.

They don't get to hang-out after school anymore (not my doing, jsut hateful Mr. Howdareyoudothatnowmysonknowsiamaliar exacting his totalitarianism any way he can, he's the dad, whatever he says goes... I think that's worse than physical abuse, but that's just my opinion), but they are in the same class together and still talk about how great it was and how dumb and angry his father is... On one hand, it's sad to see a child lose that "my daddy is a superhero" glint in his eyes at such a young age. But telling lies a child can see through will do that...

I think that's what the angry soccer parents are really angry about. They know that even a stupid child can see how prejudiced and false their parents' hate for guns and gun owners really is. A note to these parents would be, don't blame the messenger. If you don't want your kids to see you as a liar and someone who cares more for their politicals than the lives of their own children; stop being such a disgusting and reprehensible person! This is why these same parents don't want their kids around guns. Not because it's dangerous to their children's safety. It's quite the opposite. They just want to deprive their children of the knowledge and experience so that the lies will never be discovered. They know their kids are smart enough to figure it out.

One other interesting asside...

Some jerk always has to bring in the "when there are guns around, you increase the chance that arguments will be solved with bullets" lie.

Lets ignore the statistical landslide of PROOF that the OPPOSITE is true.

If violence is used to solve these hypothetical arguments so often, why does it not occur in the absence of firearms? Why would disagreements become any less civil than they already are? If it isn't 'escalating' to lesser forms of violence, why would something more extreme need be feared? It makes no sense at all. It's just another empty lie that doesn't hold up to the scrutiny of either logic or documented science.
Even people blinded by rage know that the punishment for killing someone is much harsher than punching them in the nose. Those who do cross this line are those who's conscience never learned right and wrong in the first place. They are the very reason why it makes sense to carry a gun at a soccer game.
 

Shorts

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shefearsnothing wrote:
Thanks. This is powerful stuff. I mean, I knew these things (ie gun free=easy target) but hearing it right from the mouths of LEOs and having their NAMES...now THAT is stuff I will be taking down....THANK YOU! :D


I think it's a real confirmation. Not only do these gentlemen work through LE avenues, they also instruct civilians, (self defense), and military.

Check out Tactical Defense Institute (TDI) for further information. John Benner interviewed here is the President and Chief Instructor at TDI. He's got quite a list of credentials. Col. Chris Wallace also is a TDI instructor.



**Caution** When I try to click onto TDIs site's I get a popup for AntiVirus software and continual popups for downloads. I don't know if this is a problem on my computer or what, but it was the same result on my laptop and my desktop. I was able to look at homepage information through the 'cache' link. If anyone has an idea on this, please let me know.
 

nking

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Bravo!!!!! Nice job Mel. I thourghly enjoyed that, i think you did a great job at getting your point across in a very informative and fashionable way, cudo's to you.

Oh and thank you.
 

UtahRSO

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I'll echo that bravo!! (Or BRAVA!! to be very precise.)

I'd venture to say that a good majority of those who take the trouble to get their CCW's are proficient with their firearms. But in a bad situation, even being just barely adequate is better than not having anything at all to defend yourself or others.

And if five little kids lie dead on that soccer field before the tactical police get there, it's probably because Meleanie WASN"T there to stop the bad guy!
 

Dave The Welder

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Great Job Meleanie ,

That 11-2% statistic sure ended that debate quick. I thought that you're best point was when you told the officer to try to carry a 20 pound bag of potatoes, herd at least two other kids, and draw a weapon from concealed all while fleeing from an attack. I also liked your response to having the upper hand in an argument when you replied that you were carrying right then and didn't feel like you had the upper hand. Keep up the great work.
 

Grapeshot

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Melanie - from all of us in Virginia to you our profound thanks.

Yata hey
 

shefearsnothing

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Grapeshot, I have to admit, I never looked at your location. Richmond, huh? I was just in VA this summer visiting my dad. OC'ed there too. He lives in Va Beach. I lived there for 2 1/2 years many moons ago. Nice area but....VERY busy.
 

Grapeshot

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shefearsnothing wrote:
Grapeshot, I have to admit, I never looked at your location. Richmond, huh? I was just in VA this summer visiting my dad. OC'ed there too. He lives in Va Beach. I lived there for 2 1/2 years many moons ago. Nice area but....VERY busy.
And I was in PA this summer - Mt. Top BBQ/birthday celebration included - did I meet you there?

Next time you head this way let me know and we'll get a group together for steak and grits. :D

Yata hey
 

deepdiver

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I have been out of town for a few and finally got around to watching the video. I thought Melanie did a wonderful job. Being in a TV studio for a friendly interview, I have been told by family members and friends who have done so, can be intimidating and difficult for most people. To have your first appearance as a "hot seat" debate must be even more challenging, especially for someone not use to debating this topic. Two of the guests were stated to have been on the show multiple times and I had the impression that the LEO had done these type of shows before. Melanie was truly the only newbie on the set and on top of that she was in the typically frustrating position of arguing facts against ad hominem.

I have been even more impressed by some of Melanie's responses in this thread to member's thoughts on alternative responses. Her explanation as to why she responded avoided certain arguments and focused on others shows a keen awareness of the facts and debate. I have done quite a bit of public speaking, know these issues and have been in several debate forums yet I would question whether I could have done even nearly as well. Regardless, I and most of the other forum membership, would not have been as sympathetic of a figure in the debate. The ending portion about carrying 20lbs of potatoes and herding 2 kids while running from an adult male brought home to me the fact that a mother with her children and all the paraphernalia they require has not only the disadvantage of being a woman against a typically larger and faster male attacker, but also having lesser freedom of movement to draw, stance and fire. I had honestly never thought about it in those terms and thought the imagery brilliant.

So congratulations and well done, Melanie. IMO you did yourself, your family, your community and the broader gun carrying and OC community proud.
 

shefearsnothing

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Grapeshot, steak and grits? Are ya kidding? :shock: I'm a vegetarian. :uhoh:

Nope, you didn't meet me while you were in Pa. :(



The potatoes analogy a friend from pafoa taught me and he's right. It's a great simulation..especially since my youngest is 22lbs. If it came down to it I obviously would not be concerned about the stroller or other crap I have to schlep around with 3 kids but my 1 year old isn't walking yet much less able to outrun an adult who may be pursuing us with who knows what weapons of their own? I am pretty sure my 5 and 9 year olds could not outrun an adult either.

I did a radio show yesterday...just a local station...and at one point I posed the question, what would these people who don't have guns do if THEY were under attack? No one called in and answered that one! :banghead:

There was a caller who wanted to make the argument that "everyone is a law abiding citizen until they commit a crime". WELL DUH! I don't know if he thought that OC made you more likely to commit crimes or what. I asked him to cite just ONE instance where someone had OC'ed (in a holster) LAWFULLY and then just suddenly whipped it out and committed a crime. He acted like that was an impossible question but went on to say that "it happens every day. People go off the deep end every day." He said he was not anti-gun but that he had a problem with walking down the street and seeing guns. He didn't want to see people carrying them. I asked him if he had a criminal backround and he said no. I told him ok because criminals tend to hate the sight of guns.... Seriously, this guy was as dumb as a bag of rocks. He just kept saying over and over again that people are law abiding until they commit a crime and I thought...WTH is your point!? :banghead: He gave some example of being in a parking lot and him beating me to a parking spot and then we get out of our cars and there I am with my gun and how I would intimidate him. I told him that is HIS perception because unless I got out of my car and looked at him and stared him down in an intimidating manner then HE is responsible for HIS perceptions. I told him I would just get out of my car and go in the store. I mean, maybe a parking spot is worth getting that pissed over to him but it simply is not why I carry a gun. :quirky
 

Theseus

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I think you all took my possible answers in the wrong light. I was not trying to imply that in any way shefearsnothing did not do great in the interview, but simply portrayed some comments I would have used.

I think that her answers should stay her answers as they work for her. Had I been there I would not have been able to use the same arguments because I don't have her experience.

Anyway, good job Melanie. And I won't hold your being a vegitarian against you. . :lol:
 

tito887

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great job Melanie. It really puts things in perspective when these who hate other people defending their lives have to make that their position. I think the hostess was even surprised that when that women called about that situation that happened in the bathroom that she had the "right to scream." It puts things into perspective as to how they view our lives.
 
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