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IMPORTANT NATIONAL RECIPROCITY ACTION

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Va_Nemo

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Part 1 of this was Va residents contacting the Va Rep who headed the committee handling this. Part 2 was contacting Va Reps, 3 was contacting Paul Ryan, now its a petition to Trump. 1, 2, and 3 are done. Get to work on 4.

Nemo


VA-ALERT: More help needed: National Reciprocity
VCDL President <president@vcdl.org>
Today, 3:06 AMYou
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Not yet a Virginia Citizens Defense League member? Join VCDL at: http://vcdl.org/join
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VCDL's calendar: http://www.vcdl.org/meetings
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Abbreviations used in VA-ALERT: http://www.vcdl.org/help/abbr.html
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VA-ALERT archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/727/=now
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In the first 24 hours, the VCDL petition to President Trump to push Congress forward on National Reciprocity garnered 3,000 signatures! By 3 am there were 3,518. That was from mostly from VCDL members and VA-ALERT subscribers and also from a few other groups.

Not bad, but we need another 97,000 signatures in the remaining 29 days.

IF YOU ARE GETTING THIS EMAIL AND HAVE NOT YET SIGNED THAT PETITION, PLEASE DO SO. That will boost the count significantly.

Other ideas on getting the message out as far as possible:

* Post on chat groups, especially those that are seen by other states. However, even if just Virginia, that helps. (I put items on AR15.com and Glocktalk.com under "Politics", for example)
* Have each of your family members and friends sign it
* Post on social media - Twitter, Facebook, etc.
* See if any gun clubs you belong to will broadcast the information to their membership
* Contact gun stores and gun ranges to see if they can help let their customers know

Heck, Virginia has 425,000 CHP holders alone! It's just a matter of finding a way to reach as many of them as we can.

Here's the information to post and the link to the petition:


LONG VERSION

Help us get National Concealed Carry Reciprocity, so permit holders can carry in all states!

The petition below, which is on the White House website, requires 100,000 signature BY AUGUST 17TH to be considered by the President. Please sign and forward to any and all gun groups you know - from gun clubs, gun organizations, chat groups, friends, family, coworkers, and fellow church members!

We can do this! But we need all the help we can get from gun owners across the nation.

Here is the link to the petition:

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pe...s-17-million-concealed-handgun-permit-holders

or

http://tinyurl.com/yakuske5

Here's the petition's wording:

National Reciprocity for the Nation's 17 Million Concealed Handgun Permit Holders!

Mr. President, you have said many times that you would sign a national concealed carry reciprocity bill. Please urge Congress to pass H.R. 38 as soon as possible!

H.R. 38 will allow America's 17 million concealed handgun permit holders to carry in every state in the Union as they go about their lives. As the recent shooting in Alexandria shows, crime and terrorism have no borders. Neither should self-defense!

No other group is as law-abiding as concealed handgun permit holders, regardless of which state they are from.

Currently over 20 states, such as Virginia, North Carolina, and Arizona, already honor permits from all other states, without issue. H.R. 38 will simply make such recognition uniform across the nation and will save many innocent American lives!


SHORT VERSION

Help make National Concealed Carry Reciprocity a reality! You should be allowed to carry and protect yourself in all 50 states.

Please sign this White House petition for President Trump to push Congress into action, passing H.R. 38!

Here is the link to the petition:

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pe...s-17-million-concealed-handgun-permit-holders

or

http://tinyurl.com/yakuske5


-------------------------------------------
***************************************************************************
VA-ALERT is a project of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.
(VCDL). VCDL is an all-volunteer, non-partisan grassroots organization
dedicated to defending the human rights of all Virginians. The Right to
Keep and Bear Arms is a fundamental human right.

VCDL web page: http://www.vcdl.org [http://www.vcdl.org/]
***************************************************************************
 

VCDL President

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Read, Act, Spread the Word

Part 1 of this was Va residents contacting the Va Rep who headed the committee handling this. Part 2 was contacting Va Reps, 3 was contacting Paul Ryan, now its a petition to Trump. 1, 2, and 3 are done. Get to work on 4.

Nemo

Thanks for posting this. We are at 5,000 signatures in the first 2 days. That's good, but we have a ways to go. So spreading the word is critical - gun clubs, other gun lists, gun organizations, etc. AND spreading to other states will be absolutely necessary.
 
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mnrobitaille

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Signed & shared

I followed the directions presented & have signed the petition as well as shared via both Facebook & Twitter :)
 

Grapeshot

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Read, Act, Spread the Word

Part 1 of this was Va residents contacting the Va Rep who headed the committee handling this. Part 2 was contacting Va Reps, 3 was contacting Paul Ryan, now its a petition to Trump. 1, 2, and 3 are done. Get to work on 4.

Nemo

Thanks for posting this. We are at 5,000 signatures in the first 2 days. That's good, but we have a ways to go. So spreading the word is critical - gun clubs, other gun lists, gun organizations, etc. AND spreading to other states will be absolutely necessary.

This is posted in [highlight]Hot Topics[/highlight] which is not exclusive to Virginia.
 

Thundar

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Thanks for posting this. We are at 5,000 signatures in the first 2 days. That's good, but we have a ways to go. So spreading the word is critical - gun clubs, other gun lists, gun organizations, etc. AND spreading to other states will be absolutely necessary.

Why push for National P4P racket? Wouldn't Nationwide Constitutional Carry be much better? Firearms are covered by the 14th A. All congress has to do is pass the law.
 

Grapeshot

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Why push for National P4P racket? Wouldn't Nationwide Constitutional Carry be much better? Firearms are covered by the 14th A. All congress has to do is pass the law.
Sure national Constitutional Carry would be better, but it ain't gonna happen right now. That and I really don't want a Constituional Convention.

Sooo, we work for a more realistic goal at this time.
 

utbagpiper

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Why push for National P4P racket? Wouldn't Nationwide Constitutional Carry be much better? Firearms are covered by the 14th A. All congress has to do is pass the law.

Sure national Constitutional Carry would be better, but it ain't gonna happen right now. That and I really don't want a Constituional Convention.

Sooo, we work for a more realistic goal at this time.

+1 Grapeshot.

Remember, if we can get congress to pass a national recognition act, one or more hostile States/Counties/Cities will undoubtedly sue claiming the Congress has no authority to do this. That these are the same areas most in support of federal mandates in most other cases--marriage benefits for homosexuals, choice of bathroom access for transgenders, desegregation, national speed limits, etc--is lost on them entirely, of course.

Given the left leaning nature of several federal circuit courts, the issue most certainly winds up in the Supreme Court if it will grant cert. Convincing the SCOTUS to concur with congressional authority to enforce the 2nd amendment nationwide is likely to be easier if a modest step is taken first rather than rushing to the goal line all at once.

In 1974, the Singer case argued for a right to homosexual marriage. The federal courts rejected the case for failure to raise any substantive federal issue. Running for the goal line failed.

Thirty years of efforts to change social views resulted in a less negative view of homosexuals, but a staggering loss in the legislative arena when it came to marriage. Thirty-one States passed Constitutional amendments banning homosexual marriage. Sixteen of these also banned civil unions for homosexual couples.

So, Lawrence didn't argue that he had a right to marry, only that he and his partner had a right to private relationships free from legal consequence. Anti-sodomy laws were tossed.

Windsor didn't argue for a national right to marry, only that the federal government was obliged to recognize his homosexual marriage that was valid under State law. The federal DOMA was tossed.

Kitchen argued for a federal right to homosexual marriage despite State laws and constitutions limiting marriage to heterosexual couples. He did not make any claims about how homosexual conduct should be handled in public school sex ed classes, transgender access to bathrooms, or whether anti-discrimination laws would force bakers and photographers to participate in homosexual weddings contrary to religious beliefs.

Having won on marriage, the sexual minority community is now pushing to force total social acceptance of homosexual unions via anti-discrimination laws, transgender bathroom access, and public school sex ed programs. There is likely to be continued progress in these areas precisely because the marriage ruling has done what it was intended to do: increase social acceptance and blunting socially acceptable criticism of homosexuality.

How one feels about any of these issues is not the point. The point is, they provide a very good blueprint for how to wage a successful court battle after having lost the social and legislative battles.

In areas like California, Illinois, NYC, NJ, Maryland, and Massachusetts, the legislative battle on RKBA is not likely to progress. We will continue to win legislatively and socially in most of the nation. But if we want to advance RKBA in the People's Republics, we are going to have to have federal judicial support. That, as is congressional support, is much more likely with incremental steps than if we charge for the goal all at once.

And a bad supreme court precedent is much harder to overcome than is building upon a good precedent that doesn't go as far as we want.

Charles
 

Thundar

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Nationwide p4p reciprocity instead of Constitutional Carry = Rare opportunity lost

The opportunity to get any pro gun legislation passed at the federal level is fleeting. The odds are that liberals wil win the senate, house or presidency within the next two election cycles, then there can be no pro gun legislation.So we know that if we do not push for Constitutional Carry now it may be many, many federal election cycles before the opportunity again presents itself.

BTW, itwould be better to make all permits valid in DC, where states rights cannot be asserted, if the purpose of the legislation is to win at the Supreme Court.
 

Grapeshot

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The opportunity to get any pro gun legislation passed at the federal level is fleeting. The odds are that liberals wil win the senate, house or presidency within the next two election cycles, then there can be no pro gun legislation.So we know that if we do not push for Constitutional Carry now it may be many, many federal election cycles before the opportunity again presents itself.

BTW, itwould be better to make all permits valid in DC, where states rights cannot be asserted, if the purpose of the legislation is to win at the Supreme Court.
Going for a winning field goal from 90 yards out isn't the way to put points on the board.

All permits valid in DC would be the right thing to do. So too would OC w/o a permit be a giant step in a good direction.
 

Thundar

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Going for a winning field goal from 90 yards out isn't the way to put points on the board.
All permits valid in DC would be the right thing to do. So too would OC w/o a permit be a giant step in a good direction.
Glad we agree Grapeshot! SCOTUS has never said permits are the right. We need legislation that forces a SCOTUS decision on gun rights applying outside the home, not a gun privileges case that pits the 2A against the 10th A!

Come on VCDL...Stop trying for the 90 yard P4P field goal and drive for the carry in DC touchdown. You blew your chance for Constitutional Carry in Virginia, when the Legislature and Governor were both conservative, instead focusing on P4P in Restaurants. Don't make the same mistake again prioritizing P4P over our rights. P4P is fools gold, always has been, always will be.



Live Free or Die,
Thundar
 
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utbagpiper

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The opportunity to get any pro gun legislation passed at the federal level is fleeting. The odds are that liberals wil win the senate, house or presidency within the next two election cycles, then there can be no pro gun legislation.So we know that if we do not push for Constitutional Carry now it may be many, many federal election cycles before the opportunity again presents itself.

There are far too many liberals even this cycle for the end goal to be won. Permits that require background checks might be doable in the current congress. Incremental gains that can be achieved are far better than losing on the big goal. Full recognition of RKBA is not going to come in the next 2 years any more than homosexual marriage benefits came about within a couple of years following the stonewall riots.

BTW, itwould be better to make all permits valid in DC, where states rights cannot be asserted, if the purpose of the legislation is to win at the Supreme Court.

Limiting permits to just DC would be a smaller step than getting permits in all States. But that seems too small a step given that the power of congress to enforce civil/constitutional rights via 14th amendment authority is pretty well established.

I have to ask, Thundar, are you opposed to national permit recognition?
 

utbagpiper

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SCOTUS has never said permits are the right.

Nor have they said anything about an RKBA outside the home. Smart money builds incrementally.

We need legislation that forces a SCOTUS decision on gun rights applying outside the home, not a gun privileges case that pits the 2A against the 10th A!

A forced decision easily becomes an unforced error. We have, essentially, the same court in place today as that gave us the Heller and McDonald decisions. Perhaps you'd care to explain whence comes your confidence that Kennedy (or even Roberts) is going to vote in favor of requiring States to allow anyone to carry a gun around without so much as a background check.

To my reading, the 2nd amendment is clear. And the 14th gives full power to congress to mandate its enforcement nationwide. So it ought to be a 9-0 decision in favor of permit-free, constitutional carry. Toss in 8th amendment prohibitions on Cruel and Unusual punishments and we ought to get a 9-0 ruling against lifetime bans on RKBA for felonies and DV misdemeanors. We all know that isn't going to happen.

So we deal with reality. Which justices do you figure are going to solidly support a federal mandate for nationwide permit free carry based on past rulings?

Knowing how to count votes is far more than wishful thinking.
 

utbagpiper

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What do the People/States currently recognize as an RKBA?

As we consider on what congress might pass and what the SCOTUS might uphold, we might consider on what the People in their respective States have done.

About 14 States have some form of permit free carry. Some of those are only outside city limits, one requires the gun be unloaded, one allows permit free carry only when "traveling", and so on.

By the maps on this site, we have only 15 "Gold Star" permit-free open carry States.

In contrast, somewhere between 40 and 45 States are non-discriminatory, Shall-issue permit States. Depends on what you want to count. See this Wiki article as a starting point.

Upwards of 9 States are de jur discriminatory issue (a couple appear to be de facto non-discriminatory, hence the reason we have more than 50 total). And no States are still de jur non-issue, though a few appear to be de facto non issue. Upwards of 35 States currently recognize a reasonable number of out-of-State permits.

20 States have non-resident permits available. A couple of more have them but rarely issue.


As much as we here favor permit-free carry, the national consensus at this point in history is that carrying a gun in public requires a permit, that permit should be issued without discrimination, and we are ok recognizing permits from other jurisdictions.

We've made tremendous progress on permit-free carry the last 10 years. But that is not yet the national norm. Even permit-free, fully loaded OC is not the national norm yet. This site's own map does not give Gold Star status to even half of the States, and way less than half the nation's population.

Reality today is far better than it was 20 or 25 years ago. It is not yet where we want it to be. The current makeup of the court with 4 solidly anti-RKBA justices, one who is very squishy, and one who seems loathe to make radical social change if he can avoid doing so, does not suggest the SCOTUS is going to end this battle in our favor any time soon. Simply put, we have work left to do before we can expect to win nationwide permit free carry.

I welcome any rational, civil, counter-arguments based on facts or logic.

Charles
 

JTHunter2

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Much as I deplore the idea of giving the government any inkling of my political affiliations and information, this is too important to not take a chance on it being successful.
 

Grapeshot

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Much as I deplore the idea of giving the government any inkling of my political affiliations and information, this is too important to not take a chance on it being successful.

Taking a major chance for minimal return is not good poker. We must learn to read the cards - know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em.
 

Grapeshot

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National reciprocity enacted by one administration could be rescinded by the next administration by the stroke of a pen. The several sovereign states' rights is a fine teergruben (tarpit) against federal interference.

Hypothetically; Trump enacts national reciprocity, and Kamala Harris succeeds him with a progressive Congress and limp SCOTUS. Do you doubt that she would impose martial law to gain complete gun control?
I sincerely doubt that martial law would live through the backlash from coast to coast.
 

Grapeshot

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National reciprocity enacted by one administration could be rescinded by the next administration by the stroke of a pen. The several sovereign states' rights is a fine teergruben (tarpit) against federal interference.
--snipped--

A federal law passd by both legislative houses and signed by the POTUS could not be rescinded by a (singlular) stroke of the pen.

That said, I do understand that what the Fed gives, the Fed can take away.
 
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Bikenut

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The following is my take on national reciprocity. Feel free to disagree.....

I am against any national reciprocity law from Daddy Fed. I believe that once Daddy Fed has the power to regulate carry permits through the commerce clause.. and requiring all states to recognize the permits from other states IS regulating carry permits and sets the precedent of having the authority for further regulating... the most restrictive states will demand Daddy Fed come up with a uniform system of criteria/restrictions that must be met in order to qualify for a carry permit that would be acceptable, and fair, to all the states. And the most restrictive states would demand those criteria/restrictions at least be the same as the one's those states already have.

I also have no doubt that when Congress flips to Democrat and/or someone like Hillary gets elected they would use the power of the commerce clause granted by a national reciprocity law to make carry permit restrictions so strict as to effectively legislate permits out of the reach of ordinary folks. But still within reach of the rich elite like themselves.

And while begging Daddy Fed to give another privilege might seem attractive from a right now point of view it has already been shown that, while it might take longer, it is very possible for folks who are willing to work at it to gain permitless carry in individual states one state at a time.
 
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