Illegally detained and searched

[mach1chris]

Do we get to throw this post back at you if you start spouting statist BS?

Sent from my M865 using Tapatalk

jajaj!!!... Please do if it ever does happen.

 

[mach1chris]

I salute you, Mach1Chris!

You have, indeed, chosen a worthy vocation.

In your career you'll have countless opportunities to be a blessing those you've sworn to protect and serve.

Thanks man, tho I am currently studying and working toward my degree to maybe one day work for the Federal Bureau.

 

[GIdeon_70]

I believe that the way the fellow officer acted was wrong, but if you were in his shoes and saw a man walking down the street at 1am would you or would you not be a little suspicious about it?...

No.

Police have rules that prevent them from going from good cops to bullies. This situation is similar to dozens I've heard since I was accosted by police, and if we do ntohing to prevent them from doing this, then they will not stop.

 

[GIdeon_70]

Rick H:

Thanks for posting and starting this thread which has elicited much beneficial discussion.

One suggestion: if something like this ever happens again, begin by being respectful and cooperative. Who knows, it may make a difference in the ultimate outcome of an encounter such as this.

I see this a lot. How far do you allow yourself to be harassed by the men in blue? When does "let's just get along," turn into "You're under arrest."

I cannot offer you advice, but I can say this.

Police officers are NOT your friend. They are NOT out to protect you. They are NOT going to "cut you some slack," or "play nice." They are there to deterine if you have committed a crime, or are planning to commit a crime, and that is all. EVERYTHING you say is admissable in court until you are marandized and EVERYTHING you say can be misquoted, mis-remembered, and lied about by a cop who has had a bad day and just wants to spice it up a little.

In one of the police training books I read recently, it says that the history of policing is one of violence, brutality and death brought by cops who were even more violent than the criminals they were sent to capture. Read up about the early New York police and the thiefcatchers sometime.

Police are not your friends. They will ask you innocent questions to determine if they can build a reason to arrest you. It does not even need to be something you said! A nervous twitch can be enough to get you out of your car and in handcuffs.

I am not saying that all officers, or even most of them are this way, what I am saying is that the ones that are will never be apparent until you are in handcuffs and under arrest.

There IS NO being cooperative. You WILL be cooperative if they have a reason to MAKE you cooperative, and if they do not, then you have no reason to speak to them. I HATE to say that, but sadly, it has become truth.

Sherriff Taylor is dead, and Barney is running the show.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

If you've never watched this, then you should, over and over and over.

 

[GIdeon_70]

Huh!?!?!

The OPer doesn't particularly relate being disrespectful or impolite to the cop. And, from what I can tell the OPer cooperated with the cop to the full extent required by law.

Are you saying he should waive his rights next time?

And, where in the constitution does it say rights must be exercised politely or respectfully?

Lets keep this in perspective. Lets take a look at some real non-cooperation and disrespect. The OPer didn't punch the cop, he didn't try to knife the cop, he didn't run and make the cop chase him through yards risking a twisted ankle or clotheslined throat.

Respect? Cooperation? Two way street, Mister. Will you be writing that police department "suggesting" the officer start his next encounter by being respectful, rather than deceitful, and cooperating with the citizen when the citizen exercises his rights?

Lets face it. That nasty little cop meant to detain the OPer from the outset. He meant to dig into the OPers business, whether the OPer exercised his rights or not. He had no intention of respecting the OPers rights from the moment he approached the OPer.

Rights are rights are rights are rights. They don't need justification. They don't need an explanation. The justifications and explanations were figured out long, long ago. They're not there to make interesting conversation when confronted by a cop or government. Literally over a million Americans have died defending them. Some of them go back almost literally 800 years to Magna Carta. Most were paid for in blood before the American Revolution. Blood! dammit. Countless millions have suffered for lack of them, or died. A cop's curiosity and your opinion pale into pathetic insignificance against the historical record and the cost of obtaining rights.

Thank you. And if we do not demand those rights, stand firmly on them, then we WILL lose them and dishonor the blood that gained them for us to start with.

 

[GIdeon_70]

When all of this started there was a point of respect from both sides other than my private affairs being investigated and the feeling that I was being interagated as a criminal. I showed respect through and through, But, when it came to the officers turn to Respect my wishes to not be consulted about my personal information he then began to show his disrespect toward myself. I did still show restraint and respect toward him throughout the whole Incident. I did not feel I should say thank you or anything when departing because I felt violated and did not say anything other than am I free to go and walk away after being released.
So as to the question of was I disrespectful the answer is no, did I give any other reason to be disrespectfull other than saying no I will not show my id? NO. I was polite all the way through.

You don't have to defend yourself. You were accosted and harassed, and illegally detained. Stand on yoru rights, and ignore the battles going on here. These are some good people here, and they love to hash it out.

 

[GIdeon_70]

I disagree.

I agree with your disagreement. NEVER talk to police.

 

[ixtow]

I agree with your disagreement. NEVER talk to police.

I approve of this disagreement.

 

[MilProGuy]

I've been fortunate in my lifetime. I've never had an altercation with a law enforcement officer, never been mistreated by one, nor oppressed by one.

I suppose if I had suffered oppression and harassment by members of the law enforcement community, I'd be able to share some of the ill will for them that some folks seem to have.

 

[ixtow]

I've been fortunate in my lifetime. I've never had an altercation with a law enforcement officer, never been mistreated by one, nor oppressed by one.

I suppose if I had suffered oppression and harassment by members of the law enforcement community, I'd be able to share some of the ill will for them that some folks seem to have.

If you put your hand in a fire and get burned, do you harbor ill will for fire?

 

[JeepSeller]

I've been fortunate in my lifetime. I've never had an altercation with a law enforcement officer, never been mistreated by one, nor oppressed by one.

Me either. In fact, I know of no one personally who has suffered at the hands of an LEO. In fact, the only knowledge of "bad" experiences I have are of those I read here on these forums.

I find that very interesting.

My personal belief is that most encounters with LEOs are driven as much by our own attitude as the officers'.

I've been caught doing things I shouldn't have been doing. In fact, I was once an over-the road truck driver. Anyone who knows the trucking industry, particularly around 20 years ago or so, knows there wasn't much legal going on in that industry. I've been caught over weight limits by tons, faulty equipment, expired permits, improper log-books, you name it. I was once caught doing 80 in a 45 mph construction zone (I said I've done things I shouldn't have been doing...I didn't say I was proud)...I've gotten some fines that would make Donald Trump wince, I've been shut down for violations. I've been lectured a few times, yet, strangely it appears, I've NEVER been jerked around, In fact, I don't believe I've ever been physically touched by an LEO unless I was shaking his hand. I find it fascinating that I have never been shoved to the ground. I've never been in handcuffs. I've never had any of my belongings taken from me. (and since I was a lad, I've carried a folding knife on my belt or in my pocket) I've never been searched. None of my belongings or property have ever been searched. I've never had an officer raise his voice to me unless we were trying to talk over traffic or other ambient noise.

I've probably had 100's of contact experiences with cops. Yet, there seem an awful lot of people who have such negative encounters for supposedly doing nothing wrong.
Strange indeed IMHO.

Again, I say it's all in attitude. I have no doubt that, in their minds, most folks really do see their own behavior as proper during these experiences. As I've said many times, it's exceedingly easy to try to deflect blame on someone else and just as exceedingly difficult to accept responsibility for one's own actions. It's human nature....that I understand.

Do bad cops exist? Sure. I don't deny that. However, I think before one condemns an entire group, one should look in the mirror first to make sure they aren't at least part of the problem.


OK, rant off....flame away folks. I'm quite sure I touched a nerve or two. Truth usually does sting a bit.

 

[MilProGuy]

JeepSeller:

You've made some very insightful and thought-provoking statements in your post.

I agree, one's attitude does seem to play a big part in how other people react to us and treat us in our daily lives; especially when dealing with those in authority roles.

At least, I've found this to be true in my own personal experiences.

 

[FUBAR]

MilProGuy, JeepSeller,

You guys are right on target. Good shot!

 

[Citizen]

SNIP In fact, I know of no one personally who has suffered at the hands of an LEO. In fact, the only knowledge of "bad" experiences I have are of those I read here on these forums.

I find that very interesting.

My personal belief is that most encounters with LEOs are driven as much by our own attitude as the officers'.

This is OK.

You just need to expand your gaze.

You might start with the the other opinions (dissents and concerrences) in Terry vs Ohio.[SUP]1[/SUP] In one of those opinions, the justice references inner city residents complaining about being stopped and frisked for no reason, as in it was common knowledge among some inner cities' residents that cops would sometimes just up and frisk people for no legal reason.

You might also look into the recent history of NYPD stopping small groups of youths and demanding to see their marihuana. Possession of small amounts has been legal in NYC for some years. However, exhibiting it in public is illegal. So, the cops' game, exposed by a lieutenant after being officially denied, was to badger and intimidate youths, "Show me your weed! I know you've got some! If I have to search you and find it, you're going to jail." (A bald-faced lie since possession of small amounts is not illegal.) As soon as the youth pulled his baggie out of his pocket, it was now open to public view. And, an arrest or citation followed.

You might also look into the recent history of NYPD's Terry Stop stats. Google--news stories turn up. In recent years, in certain parts of NYC (Queens? Harlem? Bronx?) there have been an unbelievable number of Terry Stops according to NYPD's own stats. Huge numbers.

Then, maybe look up the blog and writings of a fella named Radley Balko. One of his subjects as a journalist is police abuses.

Then, just to round out the picture look into the very recent history of people videoing police. Lots of arrests and intimidation and twisting old wiretapping laws against innocent people doing something perfectly legal.

I have concluded that being polite is not the issue. It is thwarting the cop by exercising your rights. Do what the cop wants and a fella can expect little trouble. Thwart the cop by exercising your rights, and too often the trouble starts right there. The reason we have seen so much is two-fold, I believe: 1) We are doing something that is not yet common, but is generally legal, and it involves guns, and 2) we have learned how to protect our legal standing during a police encounter by exercising our 4th and 5th Amendment rights, or what is left of them. Of course, the individual cop's personality can play into it. And, whether the OCer is obnoxious*. But, I believe the underlying reasons are---well---what I wrote just above, which summarizes into too many cops think they are the law and are willing to make it up as they go along.

*Nothing in the Bill of Rights requires rights to be exercised politely. Nothing in the Bill of Rights says a right is diminished in force if the citizen gets an attitude while exercising it. Nothing in the Bill of Rights says police can disregard a right if the citizen is annoyed, antagonized, feels treated unfairly, or says something smart-a$$ to the cop. The George Carlin's of the world have just as much rights as the polite people. (Note: New readers will want to understand that nothing herein would authorize "fighting words" or comments that would "tend to create a disturbance". These things may fall under the heading of disorderly conduct. Say them and you probably just gave the cop an excuse to arrest you.)

1. Terry v Ohio. You will see a purple horizontal bar with buttons to click for the majority opinion, the concurrences, and the dissent: http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0392_0001_ZO.html

 

[JeepSeller]

And, you're absolutely correct citizen. You don't HAVE to be polite. However, I've asked, several times, what is accomplished by NOT being polite other than inflaming the situation. If you've got an officer who IS being professional, step off by being an arse to him, you are to blame should he become one himself. If you get an officer who is being one himself from the start, how does being a butthead change things?

Now, I don't need to see any biased blogs or videos that don't show the entire story posted by, yet again, biased people, all with an agenda to prove. I have my own personal life's experiences, the life's experiences by people I know and trust to back up my points.

And, regarding the NY stuff, I've never denied there are rotten examples of cops out there. There are rotten examples of ANY job, in ANY profession. In fact, there are rotten examples of ANY group of people. My point is the seething hatred and mistrust of cops makes people look as foolish as anyone who engages in discrimination based on biased, emotional, knee-jerk propaganda.

I'd say those are the people who need to wake up, take the blinders off and see the bigger picture.

I see just fine thank you.

 

[MilProGuy]

And, you're absolutely correct citizen. You don't HAVE to be polite. However, I've asked, several times, what is accomplished by NOT being polite other than inflaming the situation. If you've got an officer who IS being professional, step off by being an arse to him, you are to blame should he become one himself. If you get an officer who is being one himself from the start, how does being a butthead change things?

Now, I don't need to see any biased blogs or videos that don't show the entire story posted by, yet again, biased people, all with an agenda to prove. I have my own personal life's experiences, the life's experiences by people I know and trust to back up my points.

And, regarding the NY stuff, I've never denied there are rotten examples of cops out there. There are rotten examples of ANY job, in ANY profession. In fact, there are rotten examples of ANY group of people. My point is the seething hatred and mistrust of cops makes people look as foolish as anyone who engages in discrimination based on biased, emotional, knee-jerk propaganda.

I'd say those are the people who need to wake up, take the blinders off and see the bigger picture.

I see just fine thank you.

Yes, you do, and you are helping others to take off the blinders and open their minds to the benefit of using common sense and common courtesy while going about their daily lives.

I applaud your message which is delivering the voice of reason.

 

[j4l]

Are there some dickhead/chip on shoulder-type cops out there? sure. Do I expect all of them to be so, before proving to be so? No.
I've had more than enough episodes with LEOs -good and bad- to include one arrest (mistaken identity as a result of an identity theft-in which the REAL BG, had been using my identity as an alias- resolved by asking the officer to re-read the discription of the suspect......:banghead: :banghead: totally different race,of course ..)

In my young, pre-Army days, I had hair down to my elbows- used to get pulled over, stopped, and/or frisked almost daily just for looking like a druggie....

I had an incident in NY ,years back,where I was side-swiped by an unmarked car occupied by undercover Narcotics officers- they immediately hit the siren and lights and pulled me over. I stopped, out of habitual response to lights/siren, but when these two approached the car, guns drawn, demanding my License- I asked them to identify themselves,-they refused- repeatedly, telling me it should be obvious they were cops because they had flashing lights and sirens.
I told them I could go get a Gall's catalog and order all that crap for my car too-it wouldnt make me a cop, right?
So I got on the cell, and called 911. These two about crapped themselves. I told the 911 operator Id been pulled over by folks claiming to be cops, but un-willing to identify themselves, or show a badge. I advised 911 that unless I soon saw some MARKED cars with actual cops, I was going to drive away from this stop,and do whatever I need to do vs. armed fellas waving pistols at me.

So, within seconds, a few actual squad cars arrive- the real cops show up, and ask these guys to identify themselves- which they hesitated to do... the local precinct cops didnt even recognize these clowns either. .. Anyway, they ended up getting reprimanded on the side of the road by the uniformed officers. As I was being told I could go on my way, one of the narcos tossed a ticket in my open window... for "failing to use a traffic signal" ...

I informed them I would contest the ticket. And did. On court day, neither of these two dickweeds showed up, so the whole thing got tossed...

But,even with such experiences behind me, I dont expect every LEO encounter to go the way these did. I dont go around fearing the cops, or anything-even when I am in the wrong.

 

[ixtow]

Now, I don't need to see any biased blogs or videos that don't show the entire story posted by, yet again, biased people, all with an agenda to prove. I have my own personal life's experiences, the life's experiences by people I know and trust to back up my points.

Is a long, long record of 'isolated incidents' really a 'bias?' At what point do you accept the fact that we have a problem with a Police State?

My point is the seething hatred and mistrust of cops makes people look as foolish as anyone who engages in discrimination based on biased, emotional, knee-jerk propaganda.

What about another group, say, Child Molesters. Will you chastise seething hatred and mistrust of them? Not all Child Molesters are bad people... A majority are women, and we know women never do anything wrong, they're perfect little angels.

Your argument is as silly as the other side of the fence.

Cops are hired by the State to enforce the State's agenda. Period.

That alone makes them enemies of Freedom... Now, if some of them choose not to be pawns for the abuses it gives the excuses to commit... Well, I guess we'll cross that bridge when we get there... Most cops take the job because they don't care about the consequences to society. They just want a job where they can be violent and abusive, and get away with it. They commit more violent crime than any other group of human beings, by a huge margin. AND, they almost never get convicted of it. Not having a cautious paranoia around them is foolish.

It's like stepping into the Tiger exhibit at the Zoo and saying you have no fear... You're either lying, or REALLY stupid.

I agree that being a dick isn't useful. But blind trust in the most dangerous group of people that exists on planet earth? Not a bright idea, and certainly not advice I'd pass out to others.

If you don't presume they are deadly predators looking for any excuse to screw up your life... You haven't spoken to the Assistant SA who says that kind of cop is the best kind of cop... Prosecuting the innocent is just a fact of life when you're aggressively seeking criminals. If you sentence 5 people who did nothing wrong to get to one who did, well, too bad for them.

With the slant of government lately, we may well need to become criminals if we want America to survive. What is a criminal, but a person who disobeys the law? When the law is no longer representative or respectful of the republic's Rights... What's so wrong with being a criminal? It's the most American thing you can be...

When the law becomes the domestic enemy, enforcing it makes one a traitor.

 

[JeepSeller]

What about another group, say, Child Molesters. Will you chastise seething hatred and mistrust of them?

Apples and oranges. ALL child molesters have done something wrong. It's reasonable to presume that they aren't to be trusted until they redeem that trust. An officer, on his own, has done nothing wrong other than to wear badge and take a job that represents something you fear and hate.

All I'm trying to do is open minds. Yea, I know it's a futile effort. Closed minds are one of the most frustrating to come against. But, I'm also just not the kind that can sit quietly and watch people I KNOW are smart enough to evolve past blind hatred make fools of themselves.

We have a member here who appears to have openly carried just about every day, if not every day for some time now, several months if I"m not mistaken. In FLORIDA of all places. ON A MOTORCYCLE! I'd say that's pretty "in your face" open carrying. Certainly, many would argue he's almost begging to be hassled by the cops. (I know, I've made that argument before) However, he's passed untold cops. He's even been checked out a couple of times without event.

If cops were the "enemy of freedom" as your conspiracy would have us believe, I doubt he'd have made it this far. MORE proof that the good FAR outweighs the bad here. There's "I OC'd today" stories posted up weekly here on this forum, most uneventful. You can certainly come up with poor examples of LEO interactions, Youtube is FULL of them. However, GOOD cop events don't seem to get 1 million hits on youtube. So, those really aren't much evidence to back up your claims. Unfortunately, there's just no PROOF that cops are the devil you and many have us believe. Sorry.

 

[JeepSeller]

To further put the "all cops are bad" argument to rest once and for all.....

The number of sworn officers in Florida was 35,520 in 2009. I found this information here http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_police_officers_are_employed_in_Florida

According to the Orlando Sentinel, the number of officers disciplined in 2009 was 794. My source here....http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...inal-justice-standards-officers-criminal-case

That works out to just around 2% of sworn officers disciplined in Florida during 2009

Finally, according to the Sentinel article cited above, about 44 percent of officer discipline cases result in revocation of their credentials. .

794 discipline cases - 44%(349) = 445

Making the ratio of truly bad cops caught doing wrong deeds terrible enough to revoke their credentials, just over 1%.


Can't argue against raw data folks.

Making mountains out of molehills. The definition of anti-cop.

Now, before someone puts their foot in their mouth and throws out the "thin blue line" argument, let's step back and see the big picture for a change. You can't pick your nose these days in public without being caught on camera somewhere. Bad police behavior is prime beef for most news agencies. Certainly, the Youtube crowd LOVES it. Certainly it appears that many on gun forums LIVE to find those stories. Given the 100's of thousands of cops out there, and the resulting 100's if not millions of police/citizen encounters that occur every day. If most, (all according to some of you) cops were bad, there's little chance that much bad behavior would escape public scrutiny.

Does it happen? Sure. No one argues that point. But, what IS fiction is that LEOs are generally enemies of anyone other than the bad guys they work to lock up.