Illegally detained and searched

[Citizen]

SNIP However, the boorish insult at the conclusion of your post sort of "kicked the slats" from beneath an, otherwise, educated and well-crafted series of salient and insightful statements and questions.

...using rancor and insults towards another forum member?

"A house divided against itself cannot stand."

Agreed. I apologize.

 

[MilProGuy]

Agreed. I apologize.

Thank you.

I appreciate it.

 

[Rich7553]

I find it very shocking to know that there are citizens that know the laws better then the very officers that are supposed to enforce them. I've learned a bit from you guys.

Very good conversations indeed...

We have to Chris. Most of us don't have a union! :lol:

 

[ixtow]

We have to Chris. Most of us don't have a union! :lol:

Yeah, our tax dollars get spent backing The State's legal matters, but leave us hanging... Isn't it our money? But Our State Attorney won't speak to us....

 

[ixtow]

I think I see where we're having the problem.

You can NOT see my fishing equipment as it fits nicely in my tank bag.

To the normal citizen (and local LEO) I'm a guy on a motorcycle with a gun.

But the question remains, what does the officer KNOW that suggests the individual in question is not performing one of the acts in 790.25?

MWAG is not all they need to know. Much like MWAC (Man With A Car). Merely driving a car is not RAS or PC that the driver has no License. It's not acceptable to pull everyone over and check. Likewise, A Man with a Gun is not RAS or PC that said man is NOT (traveling to or from) fishing, hunting, etc... Having the associated equipment in plain view might 'help' the LEO figure it out, but it isn't material to the matter.

Since there is a qualifier that makes it legal, there must be knowledge/evidence that this qualifier is absent. That is one of the drawbacks to the way the State of FL makes blanket prohibitions with exceptions. The exception must be known absent.

It may raise an eyebrow, and a consensual encounter may be warranted in the mind of one LEO and not another... But a detainment is not. If you're ok with it, fine. That's your choice.

My objective is to draw the factual legal line, not the line of opinion. Others can choose how much of it let slide. I just want it to be clear where that line is actually drawn.

 

[ixtow]

I find it very shocking to know that there are citizens that know the laws better then the very officers that are supposed to enforce them. I've learned a bit from you guys.

Very good conversations indeed...

Sadly, it's not unusual. I just got pulled over because my motorcycle has no turn signals. They aren't required.

They are required to function if present, but they do not have to be present.

Another LEO who didn't know the law... It's pretty common. They try to apply what they ASSUME must be true, or wish were true, and expect a Citizen to just accept it. They're used to people who just go along with whatever they say, so they never bother to look it up.

This is one of the reasons I'm such a hardass. If Cops don't run across a guy like me now and then, they never learn anything... I'm not trying to be a dick. I simply know they won't bother to read the Statutes unless I stick to it and tell them they're wrong. Then they get a bug up their ass about showing me up, and how they're going to throw the book at me... And find out I'm right when they go to read it for the first time in their lives... I'm really not trying to antagonize, but it's the only way to get these guys to read the damn book!

"You're wrong!"
"Oh, you think you're a Lawyer now?"
"No. I just know how to read. Nothing special."
"We'll see about that you bleepin' bleep of a mother's bleep bleep."

Then he lets me go without an apology, or tells me how lucky I am that he's not writing me a ticket for what he just found out he was wrong about and can't cite me for anyway.... [rolls eyes]

Influencing their ego seems to be the only way to motivate them to learn. Otherwise, they get lazy with their power to tell people whatever they want.

 

[JeepSeller]

"You're wrong!"
"Oh, you think you're a Lawyer now?"
"No. I just know how to read. Nothing special."
"We'll see about that you bleepin' bleep of a mother's bleep bleep."

And, yet, I'm almost half a century old. I've never been a cop. I'm not part of any "club" as you say. Yet, I've been pulled over myself for what ends up being an LEO's poor understanding of the law. I've corrected them, and, MY conversation with them has always gone MUCH different, and ended considerably more civil.

Probably because I don't start off with an attitude combined with a "you're wrong!". That's part of the lesson I think several around here, including myself have tried to pass along.

MOST of the time, you'll get MUCH better results if you handle these situations with poise, professionalism, and respect. Certainly, not 100% of the time, sure, you can get a boneheaded cop that just isn't going to listen to reason. But, you really need to understand that those officers come across far more boneheaded citizens who won't listen to reason than we ever will encounter the same in LEOs. So, when you turn on the A$$hat switch, you flip theirs as well.

I know this won't set well with some of you so-called "hard-#sses". But, to be honestly blunt, flipping the attitude when you think you're in the right is the easy, cowardly way out. It takes much more intelligence and thought to stay calm and NOT cause or be part of the problem. I realize it's almost instinctive within ourselves to be "butt-sore" when we feel we're wronged. But, being a butt-head doesn't solve anything but, almost always cause the other side to become one as well. If you remain calm and poised, you take away their fuel for becoming one themselves.

Sorry if that hurts anyone's feelings. But, I call 'em like I see 'em.

 

[Citizen]

SNIP I know this won't set well with some of you so-called "hard-#sses". But, to be honestly blunt, flipping the attitude when you think you're in the right is the easy, cowardly way out. It takes much more intelligence and thought to stay calm and NOT cause or be part of the problem. I realize it's almost instinctive within ourselves to be "butt-sore" when we feel we're wronged. But, being a butt-head doesn't solve anything but, almost always cause the other side to become one as well. If you remain calm and poised, you take away their fuel for becoming one themselves.

Oh, great! Thank you. Then you can travel around the country and talk to the cops we've encountered, who, despite OCers being polite and calm, still illegally detained the OCer, demanded identity documents without authority, lied, threatened, and tried to intimidate OCers. Because I can tell you being polite doesn't prevent the abuse. Remaining calm and poised didn't prevent far too many bad encounters with cops. It certainly didn't take away their fuel for becoming jerks, they were jerks from inception.

I know this won't sit well with those who assume "hard-asses" are impolite or rude during a police encounter, but I've come across few--very few--reports of OCers who were a hard-ass to the cop during a police encounter. Somehow a certain number of readers assume that firm talk here translates into being impolite or harsh or "flipping an attitude" to a cop during a police encounter. Its tiresome. And, laughable.

I've never "flipped an attitude" during a police encounter. And, I always suggest "polite, verbal, refused consent" Those words. The word "polite" is always included.

 

[JeepSeller]

I'm no tying to assume anything. Simply basing my own personal views and opinions regarding the subject upon my own personal experiences.

In my nearly 50 years, I can say I've just about never had what I would consider a negative experience with an LEO. I know of no one in my considerably large family that reports a negative encounter.

The only negative encounters I am aware of, are videos posted on these forums and/or first-hand experiences posted by members, and, of the vast majority of those, we see a common tone to the way they dealt with the situation.

I merely believe how we present ourselves during these encounters with an LEO can and does have a huge impact on how those encounters play out in most circumstances.

I freely admit that one can come across an LEO that is just chucklehead, plain and simple, and, refuses to respect anyone for any reason. However, I maintain that those officers are not the norm. What is the norm is that if we are an asshat ourselves, it's almost a guarantee that the officer will become or remain one themselves. However, being respectful, can and does get respect in return more often than not.

Unfortunately, regarding our interactions with LEOs, for many anyway, it's easy to just let knee-jerk, emotional biases blind themselves to seeing the larger picture in that there is a possibility that their own behavior and attitude could be a contributing factor in how that negative encounter plays out. So, I also maintain that many people mistakenly see themselves as NOT being part of the problem. After all, taking responsibility and blame is very difficult to get past the ego.

 

[ixtow]

Probably because I don't start off with an attitude combined with a "you're wrong!"

My quotes were shorthand for the general idea of how the conversations go. I don't think I've ever had that EXACT conversation. I didn't feel like elaborating; I was making a simple point.

It doesn't hurt my feelings any.

I don't give anybody attitude, even cops, until they make multiple efforts to earn it.

It's not my fault if I'm not 50 years old, and look even younger. Some cops are insulted by the idea that someone who looks 25 knows more about their job than they do... After my disgusting experiences at the academy and the resulting reprisals that continue to this day, I've done a LOT of studying. I know orders of magnitude more about the law than the academy would have taught me if I could have tolerated that abomination unto America. I know WAY more than they do. So what? Why does it have to be a dick measuring contest with these people? I didn't make it that way... Just trying to save them the trouble of looking like an ass in court... "You think you're a lawyer?" "No, do you?"

 

[JeepSeller]

I used your example conversation to simply use in making a point. My comments weren't directed at you specifically ixtow.

My point is that, while not always, IMHO, many times, that terrible experience one is having during an LEO stop, could be self - inflicted as a result of their own attitude. Think about it, if we were to approach someone, regardless of why, and they immediately nail with a combative attitude, THEY certainly take some of the blame should the the tone of that encounter turn negative.

My point is to take blame when blame is due. I know it's hard to drop the ego and accept blame when one has behaved poorly. But sometimes, that's the case, regardless of how much it hurts to admit.

 

[ixtow]

I used your example conversation to simply use in making a point. My comments weren't directed at you specifically ixtow.

My bad, apologies sir.

 

[WCrawford]

I'm no tying to assume anything. Simply basing my own personal views and opinions regarding the subject upon my own personal experiences.

In my nearly 50 years, I can say I've just about never had what I would consider a negative experience with an LEO. I know of no one in my considerably large family that reports a negative encounter.

The only negative encounters I am aware of, are videos posted on these forums and/or first-hand experiences posted by members, and, of the vast majority of those, we see a common tone to the way they dealt with the situation.

I merely believe how we present ourselves during these encounters with an LEO can and does have a huge impact on how those encounters play out in most circumstances.

I freely admit that one can come across an LEO that is just chucklehead, plain and simple, and, refuses to respect anyone for any reason. However, I maintain that those officers are not the norm. What is the norm is that if we are an asshat ourselves, it's almost a guarantee that the officer will become or remain one themselves. However, being respectful, can and does get respect in return more often than not.

Unfortunately, regarding our interactions with LEOs, for many anyway, it's easy to just let knee-jerk, emotional biases blind themselves to seeing the larger picture in that there is a possibility that their own behavior and attitude could be a contributing factor in how that negative encounter plays out. So, I also maintain that many people mistakenly see themselves as NOT being part of the problem. After all, taking responsibility and blame is very difficult to get past the ego.

Please remember that respect is earned, not given blindly. I always remain cautiously polite with LE until they lie about anything or display authoritative ignorance of the law. Too bad my politeness will generally last less than 5 minutes.

 

[JeepSeller]

My bad, apologies sir.

No need. It's a highly emotional subject that springs up regularly on these forums. Each of us feel very strongly the way we do. Putting aside differences, egos, and such, my feeling the way I do doesn't make you wrong, and vice-versa. It's just a difference of opinions on how we feel we should present ourselves in these situations.

Discussion is the mother of understanding IMHO. Unfortunately, the bane of these forums is the impersonality, the lack of personal interaction to assist that understanding. So, often, we come across the wrong way.

I'm famous for it. ROFL!

 

[JeepSeller]

Please remember that respect is earned, not given blindly. I always remain cautiously polite with LE until they lie about anything or display authoritative ignorance of the law. Too bad my politeness will generally last less than 5 minutes.

And, I understand your position. However, when your politeness wears off, what does that accomplish exactly? How does getting DIS-respectful or impolite gain you anything other than an even MORE unprofessional LEO.

Me? Personally, when faced with ignorance or disrespect, I usually (and I'm no saint here either mind you) try to be the bigger person. I may gain nothing, but, at least I don't make things worse.

 

[ixtow]

And, I understand your position. However, when your politeness wears off, what does that accomplish exactly? How does getting DIS-respectful or impolite gain you anything other than an even MORE unprofessional LEO.

I feel an obligation to drag the worst out of people. Especially people with that much power given to them. If they're a bad apple, We the People need to squash them. I am one of We the People, and I'm not one of the sheeple that doesn't know where he stands. I have the ability to do what most are unable or unwilling to do; so I must live up to it. Too few do.

Bait only works on fish that want to eat it... I craft my words and actions carefully so that it only creates an issue for those that need to be exposed. Those who are respectable haven't any problems. I'm not out to get cops. In spite of how so many have treated me, I choose to be the better man. Sometimes I have an outburst; but if you were told that all cops are Jesus Christ Clones after dozens of them tried to kill you and your family... You might be a little testy about it, too. I'm downright effing cordial, compared to what I'd rather do (and am more than capable of, yet do not do)...

 

[WCrawford]

And, I understand your position. However, when your politeness wears off, what does that accomplish exactly? How does getting DIS-respectful or impolite gain you anything other than an even MORE unprofessional LEO.

Me? Personally, when faced with ignorance or disrespect, I usually (and I'm no saint here either mind you) try to be the bigger person. I may gain nothing, but, at least I don't make things worse.

Considering that the firm declaration that a person is exercising their right to remain silent is considered impolite, it accomplishes nothing except to make the Jack boot really work hard to justify their violations of my rights under the color of law.


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[mach1chris]

Sadly, it's not unusual. I just got pulled over because my motorcycle has no turn signals. They aren't required.

They are required to function if present, but they do not have to be present.

Another LEO who didn't know the law... It's pretty common. They try to apply what they ASSUME must be true, or wish were true, and expect a Citizen to just accept it. They're used to people who just go along with whatever they say, so they never bother to look it up.

This is one of the reasons I'm such a hardass. If Cops don't run across a guy like me now and then, they never learn anything... I'm not trying to be a dick. I simply know they won't bother to read the Statutes unless I stick to it and tell them they're wrong. Then they get a bug up their ass about showing me up, and how they're going to throw the book at me... And find out I'm right when they go to read it for the first time in their lives... I'm really not trying to antagonize, but it's the only way to get these guys to read the damn book!

"You're wrong!"
"Oh, you think you're a Lawyer now?"
"No. I just know how to read. Nothing special."
"We'll see about that you bleepin' bleep of a mother's bleep bleep."

Then he lets me go without an apology, or tells me how lucky I am that he's not writing me a ticket for what he just found out he was wrong about and can't cite me for anyway.... [rolls eyes]

Influencing their ego seems to be the only way to motivate them to learn. Otherwise, they get lazy with their power to tell people whatever they want.

Sounds like to me that you have had nothing but the worst of luck with them. Tho I must say that decided to become one was the best decision I have ever made, and that being said I promise to always uphold the constitution. Always have.

 

[MilProGuy]

I salute you, Mach1Chris!

You have, indeed, chosen a worthy vocation.

In your career you'll have countless opportunities to be a blessing those you've sworn to protect and serve.

 

[WCrawford]

Sounds like to me that you have had nothing but the worst of luck with them. Tho I must say that decided to become one was the best decision I have ever made, and that being said I promise to always uphold the constitution. Always have.

Do we get to throw this post back at you if you start spouting statist BS?

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