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Hr 218 aka leosa?

USMC0341

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Mar 26, 2014
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2
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North Dakota
I am a fairly new deputy in North Dakota. I will be visiting my nephew in a north eastern county, specifically Becker County. Now with this new law HR 218, I am having trouble on where I can an cannot carry while off-duty. We all know the saying is that we are "never off-duty" lol. But, I digress. So to make this simple, I am going to be picking up and signing out my nephew from his HS for lunch on an upcoming visit. Under MN law a licenesed peace officer can carry off duty in a school, but the definition in the Statute only defines a "Peace Officer" under 626.84 as basically any state agency that has the power to act as a Law Enfrcement officer. Also under fed law I am not to carry, even as an off duty LEO with in a 1,000 ft of a school if I do not have that states CC permit. So as a LEO from another state and totally different jurisdiction outside of the state of MN, can I carry into the school under HR 218 aka LEOSA or not. I did email the Sheriff and the Chief of Police of the county and city respectfully to ask them. But as I wait for a response I wanted to hear what other officers from MN had to say cuz I know a few of them are on here.

Thanks
 

robdoar

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Messages
152
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Minneapolis
I am a fairly new deputy in North Dakota. I will be visiting my nephew in a north eastern county, specifically Becker County. Now with this new law HR 218, I am having trouble on where I can an cannot carry while off-duty. We all know the saying is that we are "never off-duty" lol. But, I digress. So to make this simple, I am going to be picking up and signing out my nephew from his HS for lunch on an upcoming visit. Under MN law a licenesed peace officer can carry off duty in a school, but the definition in the Statute only defines a "Peace Officer" under 626.84 as basically any state agency that has the power to act as a Law Enfrcement officer. Also under fed law I am not to carry, even as an off duty LEO with in a 1,000 ft of a school if I do not have that states CC permit. So as a LEO from another state and totally different jurisdiction outside of the state of MN, can I carry into the school under HR 218 aka LEOSA or not. I did email the Sheriff and the Chief of Police of the county and city respectfully to ask them. But as I wait for a response I wanted to hear what other officers from MN had to say cuz I know a few of them are on here.

Thanks
Do you have 10 years of LEO credentials?
 

USMC0341

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Mar 26, 2014
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2
Location
North Dakota
Hr218 aka LEOSA

The 10 years only applied if your retired. I qualify under the QLEOSA (Qualified Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act). There's two parts to LEOSA, the active law enforcement officer an the retired officer. I'm just asking about schools in MN; is it ok to carry in them since local, State LEO's can carry in schools (k12) when off duty?
 

Jared

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Joined
Jul 8, 2006
Messages
901
Location
Michigan, USA
I am a fairly new deputy in North Dakota. I will be visiting my nephew in a north eastern county, specifically Becker County. Now with this new law HR 218, I am having trouble on where I can an cannot carry while off-duty. We all know the saying is that we are "never off-duty" lol. But, I digress. So to make this simple, I am going to be picking up and signing out my nephew from his HS for lunch on an upcoming visit. Under MN law a licenesed peace officer can carry off duty in a school, but the definition in the Statute only defines a "Peace Officer" under 626.84 as basically any state agency that has the power to act as a Law Enfrcement officer. Also under fed law I am not to carry, even as an off duty LEO with in a 1,000 ft of a school if I do not have that states CC permit. So as a LEO from another state and totally different jurisdiction outside of the state of MN, can I carry into the school under HR 218 aka LEOSA or not. I did email the Sheriff and the Chief of Police of the county and city respectfully to ask them. But as I wait for a response I wanted to hear what other officers from MN had to say cuz I know a few of them are on here.

Thanks
If you are in compliance with the federal gun free schools Act, you may use LEOSA to carry into a private school even if the state prohibits it, as long as the private school is not posted private property.



Setting federal law side Leo so preempts All state gun restrictions except for government property is prohibited by state law and posted private property if the state allows private property to prohibit guns.

LEOSA also applies to concealed firearms, not just handguns. Even covers short-barreled rifles and short-barreled shotguns as long as you comply with all federal transport rules and tax stamp requirements.
 

robdoar

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Dec 12, 2010
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Location
Minneapolis
18 USC 921/922 is pretty clear you either need a state permit, or be an LEO acting in an official capacity.
 

pkbites

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Jun 2, 2006
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Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, ,
The law is almost 10 years old so it is not exactly "new".

The way I read it, and the way I read MN law, you would NOT be covered to enter a public school. As already stated if appears you could go into a private school that wasn't posted. This is not legal advice.

Wisconsins laws are also screwy on that issue. Unless I am on duty I cannot legally go on school property or even be within 1000 feet of it without a CCL.

As a LEO you should be aware that it's the Attorney Generals Office of a state you should be asking these legal questions to, not a Sheriff of Chief.

I'm going to warn you about something else, newbie. Most of the folks here don't care for HR218. Understandable as it creates a special class of people. When you meet hostilities on these boards talking about it don't say I didn't warn you.
 

robdoar

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Messages
152
Location
Minneapolis
As already stated if appears you could go into a private school that wasn't posted.
Not in MN. Permit and permission needed for any K-12 school or licensed daycare.

As a LEO you should be aware that it's the Attorney Generals Office of a state you should be asking these legal questions to, not a Sheriff of Chief.
Plus 1,000

I don't know how it is in ND but cops are not legal experts here.
 

Jared

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Messages
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Michigan, USA
Not in MN. Permit and permission needed for any K-12 school or licensed daycare.


Plus 1,000

I don't know how it is in ND but cops are not legal experts here.

You are incorrect about schools (private), Assuming one is in compliance with the federal gun free schools act, a LEOSA covered person can carry in a private school notwithstanding Minnesota law. Any state restriction is preempted under LEOSA unless it's posted private property or if its a ban on government property.

A private school is not government property.

If the ND LEO in question has a MN Permit to carry a pistol and the school is private, he can carry into the school and legally ignore Minnesota's ban under LEOSA, provided that the school isn't posted no guns.

If it's public, then your assessment is correct... but for private, it's incorrect.
 

robdoar

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Dec 12, 2010
Messages
152
Location
Minneapolis
You are incorrect about schools (private), Assuming one is in compliance with the federal gun free schools act, a LEOSA covered person can carry in a private school notwithstanding Minnesota law. Any state restriction is preempted under LEOSA unless it's posted private property or if its a ban on government property.

A private school is not government property.

If the ND LEO in question has a MN Permit to carry a pistol and the school is private, he can carry into the school and legally ignore Minnesota's ban under LEOSA, provided that the school isn't posted no guns.

If it's public, then your assessment is correct... but for private, it's incorrect.
No, I'm not.

If he's not acting in an official capacity, he can't carry in any school. If he wants to carry in a MN school, he would need a Permit and permission.

Also, where does 218 require a "posting" for private businesses?
 
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WalkingWolf

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Jul 31, 2011
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11,912
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North Carolina
OP are you planning to be in schools that you have no children in while out of state? Seems the wisest move would be follow the same laws that the rest of the population follows. Keep in mind depending on state laws you are not on duty while outside your jurisdiction. That is why many police officers and retired officers here get their CHP. But that will do you no good in the state you are visiting.
 

Jared

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Michigan, USA
No, I'm not.

If he's not acting in an official capacity, he can't carry in any school. If he wants to carry in a MN school, he would need a Permit and permission.

Also, where does 218 require a "posting" for private businesses?
Try reading LEOSA....

If the private school does not prohibit carry on their own volition (not by state law fiat) and if the private school is not a government installation, building, base, or park.... Then LEOSA trumps any Minnesota law to the contrary and they can't say jack about it.

The law requires some type of posting or verbal notice because people aren't mind readers and no LEOSA covered person can assume to know if a private entity does not want a firearm on their property.
 

robdoar

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Location
Minneapolis
Try reading LEOSA....

If the private school does not prohibit carry on their own volition (not by state law fiat) and if the private school is not a government installation, building, base, or park.... Then LEOSA trumps any Minnesota law to the contrary and they can't say jack about it.

The law requires some type of posting or verbal notice because people aren't mind readers and no LEOSA covered person can assume to know if a private entity does not want a firearm on their property.
Please cite the notification requirements.

And what part of LEOSA overrides 18 U.S.C. § 922(q)?

Please be specific.

Bonus reading for you... http://www.bluesheepdog.com/leosa-school-grounds/
 

pkbites

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And what part of LEOSA overrides 18 U.S.C. § 922(q)?
This is the type of argument that has gone back and forth since the enactment of HR218. I always play it safe and avoid places I'm not sure where I'm covered.


The ultimate answer, of course, is the absolute obeyment of the 2nd Amendment where everyone has the same carry rights, and the only place one couldn't carry openly or concealed would be on private property where the owner has posted. We'd all avoid places like that, though.
 

Jared

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Please cite the notification requirements.

And what part of LEOSA overrides 18 U.S.C. § 922(q)?

Please be specific.

Bonus reading for you... http://www.bluesheepdog.com/leosa-school-grounds/
As I said before, he needs a MN permit to comply with 18 USC 922(q). In fact, I've said that twice already (3 times now). You kept mentioning MN law which means squat if it's preempted by LEOSA. The fact that he needs a state permit to comply with 922(q) does not change the fact that LEOSA overrides MN's ban on school carry as applied to private schools.

Notification requirements are implied. How can one know if a private establishment prohibits firearms without being notified? I can't read minds, can you?

Thanks for the link, I'm well ahead of blue sheepdog, he does have good info but he never mentioned how short barrled rifles and shotguns are covered under LEOSA as long as the NFA interstate transport rules are followed.... Even in MN where SBS's and SBR's are generally prohibited... Not for LEOSA covered individuals....
 
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Jared

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Michigan, USA
This is the type of argument that has gone back and forth since the enactment of HR218. I always play it safe and avoid places I'm not sure where I'm covered.


The ultimate answer, of course, is the absolute obeyment of the 2nd Amendment where everyone has the same carry rights, and the only place one couldn't carry openly or concealed would be on private property where the owner has posted. We'd all avoid places like that, though.

It's not hard to follow, people on police forums just make it complicated, they are mostly incapable of applying preemption. They can't wrap their heads around that it's not just handguns that are covered and they also can't accept the restrictions in the federal gun free schools act, so they just ignore it knowing that state and local PD's can't enforce it anyway (nor would they care to).

It's like when these people on forums say that they have to register firearms in Hawaii when carrying under LEOSA, even thought their are many LEOSA covered people who are prohibited by Hawaii law from possessing firearms due to criminal history.
 
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Jared

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Michigan, USA
I don't follow you on that. What kind of criminal history?
Violent criminal misdemeanor convictions are disqualifiers in HI.

There are plenty of state prohibitions on carrying and even possessing firearms that LEOSA trumps because it only takes federal prohibitions into account.

I have a guy in my agency who retired who is an alcoholic who had a DUI, he's ineligible for a Michigan carry license but he can still use LEOSA... Yes, government employees are held to a lower standard.
 

robdoar

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As I said before, he needs a MN permit to comply with 18 USC 922(q). In fact, I've said that twice already (3 times now). You kept mentioning MN law which means squat if it's preempted by LEOSA. The fact that he needs a state permit to comply with 922(q) does not change the fact that LEOSA overrides MN's ban on school carry as applied to private schools.

Notification requirements are implied. How can one know if a private establishment prohibits firearms without being notified? I can't read minds, can you?

Thanks for the link, I'm well ahead of blue sheepdog, he does have good info but he never mentioned how short barrled rifles and shotguns are covered under LEOSA as long as the NFA interstate transport rules are followed.... Even in MN where SBS's and SBR's are generally prohibited... Not for LEOSA covered individuals....
Your lack of reading comprehension notwithstanding, the only exemption in 18 USC 922(q) for law enforcement officers is those acting within the scope of their duties.

Since an out of state LEO wouldn't have any official duties, that exemption doesn't apply. The ONLY way he can carry in a school is just like any other lowly civilian.... under the PTC exemption (b)(2)

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

ETA: More for your reading pleasure...
http://le.nra.org/leosa/off-limit-areas.aspx

The exemptions for these areas (36 C.F.R. §§ 2.4(e) & (h), 18 U.S.C. § 922(q)) allow for individuals carrying concealed in accordance with the laws of the state in which the federal park or GFSZ is located to carry concealed in them*; however, an individual carrying under LEOSA is carrying under FEDERAL LAW and not in accordance with the laws of the state they are in. What this means is that you are NOT exempted from carrying a concealed firearm in these areas UNLESS you are on official duty or posses a valid and qualifying state issued concealed carry permit.
 
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Jared

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Michigan, USA
Your lack of reading comprehension notwithstanding, the only exemption in 18 USC 922(q) for law enforcement officers is those acting within the scope of their duties.

Since an out of state LEO wouldn't have any official duties, that exemption doesn't apply. The ONLY way he can carry in a school is just like any other lowly civilian.... under the PTC exemption (b)(2)

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
No, you are the one who has trouble reading.

You said MN requires permission to carry in a school. I showed you THREE TIMES how LEOSA trumps that for private schools. You lack understanding of preemption.

As far as the FGFSZA, I ALREADY SAID that he needs a STATE PERMIT to comply with federal law. I understand it perfectly clear.

The FGFSZA and MN's statute exist in tandem. So let me break it down for you since you are having severe trouble understanding it.


1. The OP NEEDS... NEEDS.... NEEDS... A state permit to comply with the FGFSZA


AND.....AND....AND


2. He NEEDS LEOSA.... LEOSA.... To trump MN's STATE BAN, on private schools.... PRIVATE SCHOOLS.


So, with a MN permit AND LEOSA ID, he can carry into a private school regardless of whatever law MN had to the contrary.
 
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robdoar

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Minneapolis
2. He NEEDS LEOSA.... LEOSA.... To trump MN's STATE BAN, on private schools.... PRIVATE SCHOOLS.
NO! He doesn't. GFZ applies to private schools too!

(25) The term “school zone” means—
(A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or
(B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.
When not acting in official capacity, he needs to comply with MN Permit law to qualify for the B2 exepmtion.
 
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