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Force of Law - No Gun Signs & Must Inform Law Enforcement - MAPS

vermonter

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I have repeatedly asked Open Carry admin to post these maps and was told "Why Don't You Make Them". Well, I did! I am sure they will not post them for others to see with their chosen maps like "machine gun ownership" (what that has to do with a carry forum I don't know). These maps are much more RELEVANT, and were compiled from current info on handgunlaw dot us, a TRUSTED source.
 

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CCinMaine

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vermonter

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Force of law means there are criminal penalties ranging from a fine/misdemeanor to a felony for ignoring a "No Gun" sign posted in a private business or public building. I have revamped the map for "force of law". The earlier one was an early one I posted by mistake. Mississippi is Yes - foce of law in effect for most people unless you get a specific endorsement. I added NJ, MD, HI & IL as NO CARRY. NJ, MD & HI are "may issue" but they NEVER issue except to private armed guards. The other "may issue" states issue in some jurisdictions so I included them. Missouri there is force of law only if you have a second offense at a business with a sign. Utah is No force of law since force of law only applies at churches and private homes, not businesses. Those states that were vague I erred on the side of safety and put them as yes states.

If you are in a state that has no force of law but there is a sign DON'T Open Carry there. You can still be trespassed. Just cover it an the business will never know.

Red - Force of Law
Green - No Force of Law
Grey - No carry - or no carry due to no issue
 

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vermonter

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Handgunlaw dot us lists it as a YES - Force of Law State:

“YES”
Title 17-A: Part 2 Chapter 17: B
§402. Criminal Trespass
1. A person is guilty of criminal trespass if, knowing that that person is not licensed or privileged to do so,
that person:
C. Enters any place from which that person may lawfully be excluded and that is posted in
accordance with subsection 4 or in a manner reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders or
that is fenced or otherwise enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders. Violation of this
paragraph is a Class E crime; [2001, c. 383, §156 (AFF); 2001, c. 383, §56 (AMD).]
4. For the purposes of subsection 1, paragraph C, property is posted if it is marked with signs or paint in
compliance with this subsection. Proof that any posted sign or paint marking is actually seen by an intruder
gives rise to a permissible inference under the Maine Rules of Evidence, Rule 303 that such posted sign or
paint marking is posted in a manner reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders.
17-A M.R.S.A. § 1057, Possession of Firearms in an Establishment Licensed for On Premises
Consumption of Liquor
1. A person is guilty of criminal possession of a firearm if:
A. Not being a law enforcement officer or a private investigator licensed under Title 32, chapter 89
and actually performing as a private investigator, the person possesses any firearm on the premises
of a licensed establishment posted to prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms in a manner
reasonably likely to come to the attention of patrons, in violation of the posted prohibition or
restriction
B. A person convicted of a violation of this section is not eligible to obtain or apply for a permit to
carry a concealed firearm for 5 years from the date of that conviction.
 

vermonter

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This is for maine

handgunlaw dot us lists it as a yes - force of law state:

“yes”
title 17-a: Part 2 chapter 17: B
§402. Criminal trespass
1. A person is guilty of criminal trespass if, knowing that that person is not licensed or privileged to do so,
that person:
C. Enters any place from which that person may lawfully be excluded and that is posted in
accordance with subsection 4 or in a manner reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders or
that is fenced or otherwise enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders. Violation of this
paragraph is a class e crime; [2001, c. 383, §156 (aff); 2001, c. 383, §56 (amd).]
4. For the purposes of subsection 1, paragraph c, property is posted if it is marked with signs or paint in
compliance with this subsection. Proof that any posted sign or paint marking is actually seen by an intruder
gives rise to a permissible inference under the maine rules of evidence, rule 303 that such posted sign or
paint marking is posted in a manner reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders.
17-a m.r.s.a. § 1057, possession of firearms in an establishment licensed for on premises
consumption of liquor
1. A person is guilty of criminal possession of a firearm if:
A. Not being a law enforcement officer or a private investigator licensed under title 32, chapter 89
and actually performing as a private investigator, the person possesses any firearm on the premises
of a licensed establishment posted to prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms in a manner
reasonably likely to come to the attention of patrons, in violation of the posted prohibition or
restriction
b. A person convicted of a violation of this section is not eligible to obtain or apply for a permit to
carry a concealed firearm for 5 years from the date of that conviction.

this is for maine
 

JoeSparky

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Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
OP'er

Map indicating that Signs have the force of law related to UTAH is significantly misleading. Yes, Some signs do have the force of law, but only those posted at specific locations IDENTIFIED by the State legislature per statute as being NO LAWFUL CARRY. All other locations these signs which MAY be present do NOT carry the force of law. As for signs on Private property, the ONLY ones that do carry the force of law would be those on Churches or private residences. Public buildings would be any FEDERAL BUILDING where federal workers are regularly performing their duties per federal law (including post offices in this for convenience, separate law covers post offices), Courthouses, secure portions of Jails, Airports, and certain mental health facilities.
With regard to Churches or private residences--- no signs are even required, but specific methods of communicating the owner's wishes are specified.

Mostly, ignoring these signs on private property (other that residences) exposes one to a simple trespass charge. Ignoring the NO Carry info in a Church is even less as a mere infraction (similar to a traffic citation).

And quoting from the handgunlaw dot us source you cited:

Last paragraph under the section "Do “No Gun Signs” Have the Force of Law?"


“No Firearm” signs in Utah have no force of law unless they are posted on property that is specifically mentioned in State Law as being off limits to those with a Permit/License to Carry. If you are in a place not specifically mentioned in the law that is posted and they ask you to leave, you must leave. If you refuse to leave then you are breaking the law and can be charged. Even if the property is not posted and you are asked to leave you must leave.
 
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eye95

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Fairborn, Ohio, USA
What law in Alabama gives "No gun" signs force of law? I lived there for decades and know of no such law. Also, in all the time I lived there, I never saw a gunbuster sign, probably because they would only indicate the preference of the owner and would not, in and of themselves, create a criminal situation by carrying there.
 

vermonter

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What law in Alabama gives "No gun" signs force of law?

You are right... I clicked the wrong color when going back and forth from the map creator to handgunlaw dot org. Alabama is a NO Force of Law state. Another poster said more research should be done. I agree! Whoever created and posted the other maps on OCDO should research and post these MOST important maps since this forum is about carry - right?
 

4angrybadgers

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Aug 24, 2009
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Location
Hattiesburg, Mississippi, USA
Your map is incorrect for Mississippi - well, partly. In 45-9-101, the section of the MS state code defining the "License to Carry Concealed Pistol or Revolver" (the license itself is labeled "MS Firearms Permit"), there are requirements on the visibility and wording of a no-gun sign for it to have force of law. If the sign meets requirements, then it is a violation of 45-9-101 to carry a concealed weapon onto the premises.

The relevant portion of 45-9-101 is quoted below, bolding is mine, and the sections of the code before/after (13) are removed as they are not relevant.
Miss. Code Ann. § 45-9-101

MISSISSIPPI CODE of 1972
*** Current through the 2012 Regular Session ***
TITLE 45. PUBLIC SAFETY AND GOOD ORDER
CHAPTER 9. WEAPONS
LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED PISTOL OR REVOLVER
Miss. Code Ann. § 45-9-101 (2012)
§ 45-9-101. License to carry stun gun, concealed pistol or revolver​
<SNIP>

(13) No license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize any person to carry a stun gun, concealed pistol or revolver into any place of nuisance as defined in Section 95-3-1, Mississippi Code of 1972; any police, sheriff or highway patrol station; any detention facility, prison or jail; any courthouse; any courtroom, except that nothing in this section shall preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his courtroom; any polling place; any meeting place of the governing body of any governmental entity; any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof; any school, college or professional athletic event not related to firearms; any portion of an establishment, licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, that is primarily devoted to dispensing alcoholic beverages; any portion of an establishment in which beer or light wine is consumed on the premises, that is primarily devoted to such purpose; any elementary or secondary school facility; any junior college, community college, college or university facility unless for the purpose of participating in any authorized firearms-related activity; inside the passenger terminal of any airport, except that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal if the firearm is encased for shipment, for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft; any church or other place of worship; or any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law. In addition to the places enumerated in this subsection, the carrying of a stun gun, concealed pistol or revolver may be disallowed in any place in the discretion of the person or entity exercising control over the physical location of such place by the placing of a written notice clearly readable at a distance of not less than ten (10) feet that the "carrying of a pistol or revolver is prohibited." No license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize the participants in a parade or demonstration for which a permit is required to carry a stun gun, concealed pistol or revolver.
<SNIP>

What will further muddies the waters, is that Mississippi has an "enhanced" permit that modifies language in 97-37-7 (2), which strikes out nearly all of the restrictions quoted above from 45-9-101 (13). Apparently that includes places marked with "valid" no-gun signs, which means that it appears you can ignore such no-gun signs with the "enhanced" permit.

Now, that section regulates the carry of concealed weapons, and does not regulate openly carried weapons. In fact, paragraph (18) specifically states that the section does not itself address or allow the "open and unconcealed carry" of weapons.

There is the caveat that MS does not have any statutory or case law definition of "concealed". The only case anyone can find even touching upon the topic mentions it only in passing as a historical note. Some OCDO members are of the opinion that the wording of that case lumps open carry under concealed carry, due to the holster supposed "concealing" a firearm. It's never been defined or tested by the legislature or courts, so it's just personal opinion at this point.
 
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MSG Laigaie

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Jan 10, 2011
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Location
Philipsburg, Montana
I live in the Great State of Washington and I don't believe there is a requirement for me to tell anyone when I conceal. Of course I never have this problem as I do not conceal. When traffic stopped there is no requirement/law to inform a LEO of anything.
That said, when listening to the locals on scanner, they are always informed of a CPL by the owner of a vehicle when called in.
 
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MyWifeSaidYes

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Logan, OH
In the original post, the tone is a bit arrogant that OCDO won't post the maps the user made.

In almost all the subsequent posts, errors are pointed out, even by the OP.

Then the OP suggests that someone else should do the research to correct and maintain the maps he made.

I agree that the information is relavant and would be useful, but surely there is a less insulting way of suggesting a new map to OCDO? I would have suggested the map to the user base first, just to see who's interested. With enough interest, OCDO would probably take on the task.
 

arentol

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Apr 10, 2009
Messages
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Location
Kent, Washington, USA
In the original post, the tone is a bit arrogant that OCDO won't post the maps the user made.

The OP wasn't being arrogant, he was expressing frustration.

In almost all the subsequent posts, errors are pointed out, even by the OP.

Then the OP suggests that someone else should do the research to correct and maintain the maps he made.

The OP never wanted to make these maps himself you know. He wanted OCDO to make them, but they refused and asked him to make them instead, and then of course they don't want to post them because they didn't make the maps themselves. The OP did make a slight mistake in his original post, as he should have said he asked them to make the maps, not that he asked them to post them. But that was REALLY obvious from context, so I would think you would have caught that before you posted this.

I agree that the information is relavant and would be useful, but surely there is a less insulting way of suggesting a new map to OCDO? I would have suggested the map to the user base first, just to see who's interested. With enough interest, OCDO would probably take on the task.

How much less insulting can you get than politely and privately asking OCDO to make and post these maps?

At this point the OP is basically just trying to do what you ultimately suggested, build interest in the users to hopefully get OCDO to do this. He is just doing it with a bunch of obvious frustration, which is unfortunate, but not entirely his fault.
 

ADobbs1989

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Oct 16, 2012
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Alabama
If you are in a state that has no force of law but there is a sign DON'T Open Carry there. You can still be trespassed. Just cover it an the business will never know.

Well that isn't true, you can't just be trespassed. If you meant to say that you may be asked to leave and you refuse you will be trespassed then you would be correct.
 

eye95

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Messages
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Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Well that isn't true, you can't just be trespassed. If you meant to say that you may be asked to leave and you refuse you will be trespassed then you would be correct.

That varies from State to State. In Ohio, if you enter an establishment with a no-gun sign, you have already committed a crime for which you can be arrested, tried, convicted, and sentenced.

Folks, know your State laws. Don't even take my word for Ohio law. Read it for yourself.

There is way too much mythology about the law out there. Worse, there are way too many people ready to parrot that mythology!
 

ADobbs1989

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Oct 16, 2012
Messages
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Location
Alabama
That varies from State to State. In Ohio, if you enter an establishment with a no-gun sign, you have already committed a crime for which you can be arrested, tried, convicted, and sentenced.

Folks, know your State laws. Don't even take my word for Ohio law. Read it for yourself.

There is way too much mythology about the law out there. Worse, there are way too many people ready to parrot that mythology!

He said in states with no force of law. In a state where signs carry no weight of law you can not be charged with a crime by ignoring a sign. You must be asked to leave before you can be arrested (legally) for trespassing. With that being said, yes, you do need to research the law in your state to determine whether or not signs in your state carry any weight.
 
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