• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Drill instructor convicted after rifle jams

Pointman

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
1,422
Location
, ,
imported post

Wow, that's a lot of information. I got through one new thing, and cut it down a bit:

Source from: http://redstradingpost.blogspot.com/2008/02/if-atf-shoe-were-on-other-foot.html

A handgun was found unattended inside a TSA Secure Zone at Mitchell International Airport, which might be considered a crime; if so, then according to the "ATF Evidence Collection Handbook," the firearm should be sent to ATF Firearms Technology Branch [FTB] for proper classification.

Why is this relevant? It belongs to a female BATFE special agent. Supposedly, there are only two female special agents at the Milwaukee ATF Field Office, and supposedly both were involved in
US v. Olofson. So that amounts to a 100% chance of this agent being involved in Olofson's prosecution, and a 50% chance of being the same agent from ATF who prosecuted Mr. Olofson, [as the lead agent in Olofson's case was Jody Keeku].

Will the firearm in question be sent to FTB for classification? Will it be classified a pistol or a "machine gun"? If it doesn't fire as a machine gun will it get sent back to FTB to be re-tested with "soft primered ammo," just to double check, like the possible same ATF Agent did to Mr. Olofson's rifle?
 

Bladerunner2347

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2008
Messages
84
Location
, ,
imported post

Pointman wrote:
Wow, that's a lot of information. I got through one new thing, and cut it down a bit:


Yea. Don't mean to bomb bard everyone with too much, but I like to put out as much raw information as possible and let people draw their own conclusions. Even folks like Jack have a place and serve a function in their dissent with me.
 

Thundar

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2007
Messages
4,946
Location
Newport News, Virginia, USA
imported post

jack wrote:
jpierce wrote:
Actually I said it is becoming an anti-government site. I have seen your efforts to dispel that reputation but the fact is this site has a reputation in law enforcement circles. This convicted felon is lying about his case in attempt to turn this into a " I got persecuted by the big, evilfederal government." Sites like this are fertile ground for militia and other fringe lunatics that need more reasons to hate the federal government. That is why it is being monitored, and I know for a fact it is. Actually that's probably not a bad thing. Sooner or latter this convicted felon will say something on here that will help kill his appeal (not that any help is needed, other than looking at the facts).

The fact is he was properly prosecuted by an excellent US attorney of sound reputation, and convicted BY A JURY. Any law abiding citizen should want Federal Firearms laws enforced or changed. Either way we all must respect the law until we are able to change it.
I am happy that this site has a reputation in law enforcement circles. Maybe it will give those elitists in federal law enforcement some pause before they try to bend contort and lie to obtain the outcome that they desire in court and on the streets. This is OPEN CARRY dot org!! We have guns. We are not afraid to carry them openly. Get used to it. It is our right. If you are a LEO you are a public servant. Start acting like it.

I must point out to you that I would agree that this is an anti-government site. That is not to say that this is an anti-American site. I think that there is a huge difference between the two. Government exists to protect the rights of the citizen. When there are government activities that offend the liberties of men then I am anti-government. I love my country. I do not love all of my government. Some of that government is vile and offensive to liberty and freedom. I am ashamed of it. I do speak out against these unjust and unconstitutional parts of my government. If speaking the truth makes me anti government, then I wear that badge with honor.

You talk of what law abiding citizens should want. That is what we have here. What we are often concerned about here is not law breaking citizens but Constitution breaking, heavy handed, authority exceeding federal, state and localagents. They are the real threat to liberty and freedom not those that legally open carry arms.

What I want is the unconstitutional firearms laws abolished, LEO's to respect our constitutional rightsand the anti-patriot, quasi military, BATFE force unemployed.

Live Free or Die.

Thundar
 

imperialism2024

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
3,047
Location
Catasauqua, Pennsylvania, USA
imported post

Thundar wrote:
I am happy that this site has a reputation in law enforcement circles. Maybe it will give those elitists in federal law enforcement some pause before they try to bend contort and lie to obtain the outcome that they desire in court and on the streets. This is OPEN CARRY dot org!! We have guns. We are not afraid to carry them openly. Get used to it. It is our right. If you are a LEO you are a public servant. Start acting like it.

I must point out to you that I would agree that this is an anti-government site. That is not to say that this is an anti-American site. I think that there is a huge difference between the two. Government exists to protect the rights of the citizen. When there are government activities that offend the liberties of men then I am anti-government. I love my country. I do not love all of my government. Some of that government is vile and offensive to liberty and freedom. I am ashamed of it. I do speak out against these unjust and unconstitutional parts of my government. If speaking the truth makes me anti government, then I wear that badge with honor.

You talk of what law abiding citizens should want. That is what we have here. What we are often concerned about here is not law breaking citizens but Constitution breaking, heavy handed, authority exceeding federal, state and localagents. They are the real threat to liberty and freedom not those that legally open carry arms.

What I want is the unconstitutional firearms laws abolished, LEO's to respect our constitutional rightsand the anti-patriot, quasi military, BATFE force unemployed.

Live Free or Die.

Thundar
+1000

And, I'm thinking that jack is secretly working for Mr. Olofson. His drivel has acted to incite me so much that I'm almost willing to pack up and share a cell with Mr. Olofson in a show of unity. The anti-MG rhetoric is ridiculous, and in my opinion, parting from my general anti-death-penalty stance, any politician or public official supporting the MG ban/restriction and all the other blatant infringements on the Second Amendment should be hung, drawn, and quartered upon conviction of high treason. Hell, do it for those infringing on those other sacred rights, too. Now, it's just a matter of time until our Constitution is thrown away and replaced with one more friendly to the corrupt politicians and jack-booted thugs who have betrayed America seeking ever-expanding power and wealth. I want my country back, and I want my children and grandchildren to be able to look at the American flag with pride instead of the shame I feel when I see it now.

:banghead:

This thread needs a "make sure to duct tape head" warning...
 

Pointman

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
1,422
Location
, ,
imported post

I'm for freedom of speech.
I'm also for common sense.
It seems unwise to employ one without the other.

--Pointman

From Jack's previous posts, it seems odd he would attack David, especially in the fashion he did; it's almost like it's not the same poster. Because of this and many other inconsistencies, I've spent a lot of time researching the truth.

The FTE reported David's AR15 contained an M16 trigger, disconnector, hammer, and selector. It turns out Olympic Arms used surplus military M16 parts in many of their production AR15s. Specifically, they used the aforementioned parts and also M16 bolt carriers while David's gun was in production. What they did not use is what was also not found in David's gun, a M16 sear. The M16 sear is required to fire in full-auto mode, and it requires modifications to the lower receiver housing for the sear pin. A M16 bolt is also required to be used with the sear, and David had an AR15 bolt according to the FTE, and no modifications for an M16 sear.

The BTAFE suggested the bolt may have been filed, but did not describe any tool marks or even further inspect it, so there is no reason to believe it was modified, and due to wear, the appearance of the bolt being filed is understandable. Still, many people use the heavier M16 bolt for better performance and all other surplus M16 parts in combination without the M16 sear, and it is still a semi-automatic weapon. (Note the M16 bolt contains more material, so the M15 bolt cannot be filed into a M16 bolt.)
images: http://www.ar15.com/content/legal/AR15-M16Parts/

The search of David's home seems completely unconstitutional. The firearm in question was already confiscated, and there was no evidence David was manufacturing machine guns. The search warrant did not specify the items that could be confiscated, and his computers and other items were confiscated, which is unrelated to converting an AR15 to fully-automatic. There were no M16 sears, M16 bolts, nor the machining equipment to fit the sear to the lower.

In my opinion, the BATFE purposefully mislead the court, since the "tax information" is not Federal Income Tax Return information, and the evidence should have been admissible. Because of the short two day trial, this was not discovered until after David was found guilty. Still, the judge should have demanded an explanation of how a tax stamp came to be located on BATFE documentation, and demanded the documentation be provided without the stamp. Further, the BATFE tried to discredit the defense's experts based on hearsay and without proof (which was fortunately dismissed by the judge). Even further still, Kiernicki, the main prosecution witness, was paid to testify. Reportedly he had four different testimonies, so the prosecutor had to keep asking the questions until he got the one he wanted. Apparently the jury asked for transcripts, but was only allowed to hear the part of the audio record. No evidence was ever presented to substantiate the original claim the gun was modified to fire three round bursts.

The BTAFE video showed improper test procedure regarding how the gun was fired. There is a good chance that under proper testing conditions, the gun would not have sufficient hammer follow through (where the hammer follows the bolt) to strike the firing pin hard enough to detonate a soft primer. The disconnector may have stopped the hammer follow through in the first place, but that part is unknown. The part that is known is there was a clearly a malfunction that took a good amount of effort to induce. Regardless, the AR15 was not designed for soft-primered ammunition.

No allowance was made for an independent 3rd party to investigate the gun, nor the BATFE documents. The gun was not disassembled on video so the internals could be shown, and the internals could not be shown to the court. In my opinion, the gun should have been thrown out completely, and just witness testimony allowed, although that point will probably be raised on appeal.

Government's Proposed Jury Instructions: To sustain the charge of transferring a machine gun, the government must prove the following propositions: First, the defendant knowingly transferred a machine gun; and Second, that the defendant knew, or was aware of, the essential characteristics of the firearm which made it a machine gun.

I have no idea how David was convicted, assuming these were the final instructions, but juries are odd beasts which do odd things all the time. It seems the BATFE wouldn't have even had a case had David not mentioned their findings of his gun to be a standard AR15 on AR15.com. Some helpful person mentioned all AR15s will go auto based on the floating firing pin design when used with soft-primer ammunition, which is ammunition they were not designed to use. The BATFE had the FTE retest the gun, and got it to malfunction a few times, but not consistently. The gun would obviously not fire as an automatic with any certainty or repeatability.

It's really sad if freedom ends where government begins. --Pointman

Jack made accusations about OpenCarry being anti law enforcement or anti-government. In the thousands of posts I've read, LEOs have not come under fire more than any one else. In fact, more people were ridiculed for using 9 mm ammunition as a defensive round than LEOs were for other things. Many here (including myself) support LEOs and our government, and have defended both. We may think some things need to be changed, but that doesn't make us anti-US, it makes us part of the US.

I've seen attacks very similar to Jack's elsewhere, and they do not further the truth, our education, nor Open Carry. While Jack (if it is Jack) is entitled to his opinion, he has stated it, without supporting it. Letting him continue his unfounded rants is a disservice to Open Carry, its members, and legal firearms possession as protected by the Second Amendment.

Had David created a full automatic, and I did not see any evidence he did, he would not have been wrong to do so according to the Second Amendment. Just because a law has been made does not mean it is right, DC vs. Heller is a good example of this.

As for the government watching this and other discussions and us needing to fear them, the scare tactics employed in that statement are reprehensible. While researching David's case my computer network has been repeatedly attacked, and attempts appear to have been made to shut it down. Because of the scale of attack I have not yet determined exactly what happened or who is behind it. Still, no BATFE agents came to my door, and I don't expect them to. No computer cracker groups or anti-gun nuts have shown up either, and they could just as easily be the source of the attacks.

A discussion of David's case should not warrant government investigation, and even then they'd first have to find something worth prosecuting. Arguably, the government did prosecute David even though it seems he did nothing wrong, and I think in the end his verdict will be overturned. It seems illogical to prosecute us for talking about the case, as most people here are attempting to understand and comply with the law. There are other sites that cater specifically to militia-types, and those would be a more obvious target.

David does appear to be the victim of wrongful prosecution. When researching, I sided against him, trying to find any and all evidence of his guilt. Since the BATFE is not presenting information and criminals usually squeal the loudest, it seemed only fair. The condemning evidence (such as the M16 parts) turned out to be standard fare, and most surprisingly the evidence in whole and in part did not only imply David did not do anything wrong, but implied he was innocent. The more I looked into this, the more evidence I found showing David should not have been charged. Other involved persons started popping up that corroborated David's story. In the end, he seems to be more respectable than I'd initially thought.

As a disclaimer, all of this is only my opinion, which may be incorrect. I believe the information I've presented to be accurate, but without being there and having physical evidence in front of me, I can't claim it is. Since even the defense lawyers can't obtain all the evidence, I believe research and common sense is the best anyone has.

David's sentencing is scheduled for May 15.

After writing this and reviewing the facts, I found Lou Dobbs covered the topic, and also believes David has been wrongfully prosecuted. Congress is also considering H.R. 1791, which would create standards for firearm testing, although it is very basic at this point

Lou Dobbs Two-Part Report:
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2008/03/13/ldt.tucker.govt.guns.cnn
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/03/14/tucker.government.guns.part.2.cnn
 

DreQo

State Researcher
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Messages
2,350
Location
Minnesota
imported post

After reading the information Pointman posted as well as watching the videos, the first thing I thought was "Wow, this guy's gonna be rich!". At this point there's no doubt left in my mind. I would like to see this Jack character yell at Lou Dobbs, though. :D
 

jack

Banned
Joined
Dec 29, 2007
Messages
228
Location
Clayton, North Carolina, USA
imported post

There is NO constitutional right to own a machine gun or illegally convert weapons to full auto according to current rulings. That will probably never change.



My prediction stands : On May 15 our favorite convicted felon from this board will be sentenced to 4-6 years in a maximum security prison. There may be a $25,000 fine as well.

Have a nice flight Davey.

If I was the judge it would be more like 15-20 years and a $250,000 fine

Federal sentences require that the convicted person complete 80% of their sentence. This case should drive home the point that non-compliance with federal firearms laws is just plain ignorant.

There are several other "crusaders" from this board that have either been convicted or plead guilty to reduced charges in cases that most on here would disagree with, but they are still convicted and have a record. Think about that before you decided to ignore gun laws.
 

asforme

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Messages
839
Location
Kalamazoo, MI
imported post

I don't personally care what some judge has ruled. ALL gun laws are unconstitutional. The 2nd Amendment was written so that the government would be AFRAID of the people. The 2nd Amendment is not about hunting, or even personal self defense, It was to preserve our ability to overpower the government, the government CANNOT limit that right.

I don't know if this guy knowingly ignored any laws or not, but if he did I applaud him. I have too much to lose by making a political statement by ignoring the unconstitutional laws, but I give my moral support to those who do.
 

Bladerunner2347

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2008
Messages
84
Location
, ,
imported post

Before everyone starts trying to beat Jack up too much I would like to afford him an opportunity.

Jack, you obviously have strong feeling on this case and in my experience there is more often than not a reason for someone stating what you have. So why do you feel so strongly that the information as me and so many others have laid out is incorrect? Where do you get your information from as what you said is not on any kind of record, nor has it even been alleged. You must have been told this BS by someone who you believe to be so outgoing in your opinion on it. Care to share?
 

Bladerunner2347

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2008
Messages
84
Location
, ,
imported post

jack wrote:
There is NO constitutional right to own a machine gun or illegally convert weapons to full auto according to current rulings. That will probably never change.

True. The constitution does not grant any rights. Our rights are given to us as a matter of course by our creator. They exist because we exist. The constitution merely acknowledges the rights as pre existing and puts limits on the government.
 

Thundar

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2007
Messages
4,946
Location
Newport News, Virginia, USA
imported post

Bladerunner2347 wrote:
jack wrote:
There is NO constitutional right to own a machine gun or illegally convert weapons to full auto according to current rulings. That will probably never change.

True. The constitution does not grant any rights. Our rights are given to us as a matter of course by our creator. They exist because we exist. The constitution merely acknowledges the rights as pre existing and puts limits on the government.

Jack, You really do need some schooling. Yes there is a constitutional and natural right to own a machine gun. Many people do own them. The Feds try to regulate them via the interstate commerce clause of the constitution. Thus the tax stamp for NFA firearms.

That venom you are spewing is some really weak crap.
 

Thundar

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2007
Messages
4,946
Location
Newport News, Virginia, USA
imported post

jack wrote:
This case should drive home the point that non-compliance with federal firearms laws is just plain ignorant.

There are several other "crusaders" from this board that have either been convicted or plead guilty to reduced charges in cases that most on here would disagree with, but they are still convicted and have a record. Think about that before you decided to ignore gun laws.

The point here is that we do not have:

1. Clearly defined gun laws.

2. Standards for scientific testing of firearms.

What we do have here is:

1. A government agency that cannot clearly explain their actions.

2. A government agency that pays for (non-expert) testimony.

3. A government agency that refuses the examination of real evidence by scientific specialists.

4. A government agency that rigged tests with non standard ammo.

5. Significant jeopardy for any owner of a semiautomatic hand gun rifle or shotgun that they will also be persecuted if their firearm misfires or slamfires.

I would expect all of this in a totalitarian dictatorship, but not in these united States.

Wake up and smell the coffee Jack. You might think we are a be a bit paranoid, but there is a rogue agency out there called the BATFE, and they certainly do not respect our rights.

I really hope that you have not drank so much of that poison kool-aid that you are spewing that you cannot think about what is being done to good honest people. Have you contemplated what that means for all of us and our posterity when the JBTs poison our courts and destroy our rights in order to make us safe?

Live Free or Die,

Thundar
 

deepdiver

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
5,820
Location
Southeast, Missouri, USA
imported post

Bladerunner2347 wrote:
Before everyone starts trying to beat Jack up too much I would like to afford him an opportunity.

Jack, you obviously have strong feeling on this case and in my experience there is more often than not a reason for someone stating what you have. So why do you feel so strongly that the information as me and so many others have laid out is incorrect? Where do you get your information from as what you said is not on any kind of record, nor has it even been alleged. You must have been told this BS by someone who you believe to be so outgoing in your opinion on it. Care to share?
John Pierce, one of the forum owners asked this a few posts back. I asked Jack for further information as to the basis of his opinion early in this thread back on page 2:

deepdiver wrote:
jack wrote:
There is much more to this case than the original poster apparently has knowledge off. The convicted man was buying AR-15s and illegally installing a selector forfull auto fire. The modified weapon had three positions, safe, fire and three shot burst. He had solda weapon to the man firing it and was waiting for it to come in, so he had LOANED an illegally converted machine gun. David Olofson had sold 5-7 similarly modified weapons.The BATFE did there job on this one and enforced the law.You may disagree with the Federal firearmsAct but it's not something to dismiss and violate.

This was not a case of an malfunction or burpfire, he had ILLEGALLY CONVERTED THE WEAPON. There were eye witnesses that testified and the convicted person deserves to be where he is.

Believing every anti-government conspiracy rumor is what makes proponents of the 2nd amendment look wacky.


Some are a bit too quick to defend a criminal when a gun is involved.This is not a gun rights case.
I have read several things on this case from both sides and it seems likely to me that this case an abuse of power at best. Obviously something has made you come to a different conclusion, Jack. I am interested in what evidence makes you so sure that he was guilty and that the ATF case was sound. I have read the arguments you are making but have yet to see any proof. I'm open minded to evidence. Do you have any info or links to share?

I would still like to know the basis of Jack's opinion. I have read a lot about this case but have not read anything that wholeheartedly supports Jack's position. I ask again:

Jack, please provide the basis for your opinion. The vast majority of us on the forum are fair minded individuals who, while strong 2A supporters, are also law abiding citizens. There are many laws that various people or groups disagree with and those groups, as is proper, legal and constitutional in our Republic, petition their representatives to change those laws. We are no different. If you would provide your evidence, most of us are going to carefully weigh it against the other information and draw our conclusions.
 

AbNo

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
3,805
Location
Shenandoah Valley, Virginia
imported post

I'm sure I'm not the only one wondering this....

What's the difference between hard primer and soft primer, as far as functionality. I think the base differences are pretty easy to figure out.
 

longwatch

Founder's Club Member - Moderator
Joined
May 14, 2006
Messages
4,327
Location
Virginia, USA
imported post

Closed seems to me this thread has become centered around 1 troll determined to find some nuts to feed his ego, and he is succeeding. Good luck Bladerunner, I'm sure many will be watching to see what happens.
 
Top