CO Shooting

[PFC HALE]

people that feel safe in a gun free zone havent been in the situation to need a gun to defend themself. most that decide to make an establishment gun free is at a high corporate or high manager level and live a sheltered life.

im sure when SHTF they sure wish their place wasnt gun free cause now there is only one person with a gun... the bad guy.

 

[Nav0341]

EATA: Also, this is one of those rare scenarios where OC might get you targeted first. Discuss?

I originally thought so myself. But OC would have probably been an advantage in this scenario. The room is dark and everyone is seated, once the incident began and panic ensued, I think it would have been easier to draw from an OC standpoint. Even OC'ing you would have been "concealed" from the gunman's view.

 

[mwaterous]

EATA: Also, this is one of those rare scenarios where OC might get you targeted first. Discuss?

I don't believe so, for a couple of reasons. The first being that the majority, if not all of the occupants were seated, in a dark room. Either of those two alone make it hard to see a firearm, both of them combined are pretty much up there with concealed carry -- with the obvious exception that it's much easier to draw from OC while seated than from CC (at the very least IWB CC).

The second is something somebody else pointed out... how did he get as far as the seated theater without raising any concern? Maybe I'm unfamiliar with this particular theater, but someone suggested he came in an emergency exit... do they not automatically set off alarms, or did he have the door rigged? Anyways, the point is he must have entered fairly fast. He had no time to segregate his targets or look for potential threats. His mission was to kill. Regardless of mask, the tear gas would have made it hard for him to pick individual targets so much as "moving targets" and had you been OCing he was not going to notice until the bullet hit him.

 

[Evil Creamsicle]

I originally thought so myself. But OC would have probably been an advantage in this scenario. The room is dark and everyone is seated, once the incident began and panic ensued, I think it would have been easier to draw from an OC standpoint. Even OC'ing you would have been "concealed" from the gunman's view.

I don't believe so, for a couple of reasons. The first being that the majority, if not all of the occupants were seated, in a dark room. Either of those two alone make it hard to see a firearm, both of them combined are pretty much up there with concealed carry -- with the obvious exception that it's much easier to draw from OC while seated than from CC (at the very least IWB CC).

The second is something somebody else pointed out... how did he get as far as the seated theater without raising any concern? Maybe I'm unfamiliar with this particular theater, but someone suggested he came in an emergency exit... do they not automatically set off alarms, or did he have the door rigged? Anyways, the point is he must have entered fairly fast. He had no time to segregate his targets or look for potential threats. His mission was to kill. Regardless of mask, the tear gas would have made it hard for him to pick individual targets so much as "moving targets" and had you been OCing he was not going to notice until the bullet hit him.

This makes sense. In this scenario. However would it be a problem if he, say, wasn't wearing a mask. Or if it was during the previews when the lights are on?

This is just a thought exercise. I generally agree that with that number of people it probably wouldn't be the first thing noticed. It is completely different than if, say, the criminal was concealing, and observing the environment, before opening fire.

As far as the emergency exit goes, in most theaters, the emergency exits are not off the main lobby, they are at the end of the branching hallways that contain the theaters. Alarm or no, emergency exit to theater entrance was probably 30 feet or less. I read a news article that confirmed that he did enter through an emergency exit, btw, so I think its a fact.

 

[mwaterous]

This is just a thought exercise. I generally agree that with that number of people it probably wouldn't be the first thing noticed. It is completely different than if, say, the criminal was concealing, and observing the environment, before opening fire.

Here's my take on it; I may just be a target, but I'm not worried about that. I'd rather show the criminals that there are people willing to defend themselves (and others, given the opportunity), and show the people unwilling to defend themselves that they can. There's two of us OC'ing. We become his prime targets. The fact that there are guns present that can fire back rattles him, JUST a little. While he's shooting at me, the other guy OCing takes him out. In a perfect world.

Here's the other thing to consider. If you're up against an opponent that has his wits about him and the training to obtain and terminate specific targets... you're pretty much boned no matter what. I won't disarm for that one in a million scenario and hope I never have to find out what it's like to be part of such a shooting!

 

[stainless1911]

Shooting back at a gunman, or even into the ceiling, is going to affect his aim, and his concentration allowing others to escape.

 

[Yooper]

Howdy!
Of course we are. We just don't happen to have voted, as suggested, on any such laws.
In fact, we haven't got many laws prohibiting carry anywhere in our state outside of Denver, where OC is prohibited.
City and county buildings. What does that have to do with this incident? There are no laws prohibiting carrying a firearm in public places such as theaters.
So what is the relevant law? I am purely unaware of any in the Colorado Revised Statutes.
As it was brought up, as though it is on the books, I'd like to see it in writing. Link, please?

Blessings,
M-Taliesin

Having lived in CO for 7 years or so, I agree with what you said. If I remember correctly, only school property (except undeveloped school property), and public buildings with electronic metal detectors, along with the usual federal places are off limits. In addition, loaded handguns can be carried in a vehicle, and shotguns/rifles can be carried uncased in a vehicle so long as there's not a round in the chamber (loaded mag/clip/tube in the gun is fine however). There is no restrictions on seating capacity, % of income from alcohol, or anything like that in CO law.

The theater was a no carry zone due to company policy, it had nothing to do with Colorado law.

 

[LoneEchoWolf]

Having lived in CO for 7 years or so, I agree with what you said. If I remember correctly, only school property (except undeveloped school property), and public buildings with electronic metal detectors, along with the usual federal places are off limits. In addition, loaded handguns can be carried in a vehicle, and shotguns/rifles can be carried uncased in a vehicle so long as there's not a round in the chamber (loaded mag/clip/tube in the gun is fine however). There is no restrictions on seating capacity, % of income from alcohol, or anything like that in CO law.

The theater was a no carry zone due to company policy, it had nothing to do with Colorado law.

Correct sir!

 

[Super Trucker]

Has everybody contacted their reps today and thanked them for not allowing SB-59 to go through, reminding them that this type of situation could possibly happen in our state as well. No guarantees that a person with a legal gun would have done anything, but in many MI theaters we know that since there are more then 2500 seats that no one is allowed the option to defend their family.

Don't forget to thank Senate Majority Leader Randy Richardville for his failure to move this bill forward.
Remind him that if he had pushed the bill forward and it failed at least he acted, instead he does nothing except give excuses.
Actions speak louder then words.

 

[Shadow Bear]

Has everybody contacted their reps today and thanked them for not allowing SB-59 to go through, reminding them that this type of situation could possibly happen in our state as well. No guarantees that a person with a legal gun would have done anything, but in many MI theaters we know that since there are more then 2500 seats that no one is allowed the option to defend their family.

Don't forget to thank Senate Majority Leader Randy Richardville for his failure to move this bill forward.
Remind him that if he had pushed the bill forward and it failed at least he acted, instead he does nothing except give excuses.
Actions speak louder then words.

There's no need for carry in a theater- since it's a PFZ, we're all perfectly safe. An event like this would never happen in MI.

/sarcasm

 

[M1fan1942]

Assuming you have a gun, what will you do in a crowded theater in heavy smoke with a armored gun man 50 feet away?

Open fire in the cloudy mist and hope for the best...?

Or push your family to the ground, lay on them, and pull your firearm to be ready to fire in case he gets close enough for you to have a good shot?

Personally, coming from a young man like myself this might not carry much weight, but I always wanted to be a Marine. They won't take me, but I wanted to be one to help stop insane and evil crap like this. So that being said, I would get my loved ones down, then close to engage. If it makes me a target so be it. Better than someone else.

 

[stainless1911]

well said, except that your age has little relevance.

 

[stainless1911]

Some say that it was staged to get support for the UN gun ban coming later this month. Considering the nature of the attack, I wouldnt be suprised.

 

[Ezerharden]

Some say that it was staged to get support for the UN gun ban coming later this month. Considering the nature of the attack, I wouldnt be suprised.

I honestly believe that is a bit of a stretch.

 

[Bailenforcer]

Media rumor says he had a groin protector attached to his vest also. Now unless people do not know a solid hit in a vest by a heavy caliber hand gun will often drop someone to their knees. But here is another thing most people don't know or think about. If you take a side shot and hit the shoulder with a large caliber hand gun .357, 45 acp, 10 MM ect with a decent bullet similar to a Hornady Critical defense, or XTP, or FTX it will more often than not be a one stop shot and often fatal. I am called extreme but I have always carried a 45 acp 4.6 to 5 inch barrel with a S&W model 19 2-1/2 inch loaded with +P+ very hot 125 grain JHP's just in case they are wearing a vest. If one is a consistent shooter and can walk while firing and yes it takes practice practice practice you can walk up on a active shooter and keep hitting him over and over till you are close enough to gain that head of side shot. Note many vests today still do NOT have side panels leaving the wearer open to a fatal side shot. If you have read literally thousands of N.I.J. shooting incident reports as I have you will see that side shots are often very fatal.

Please understand I state this because many do NOT know this and have never practiced at a walk and shoot scenario. Also most people I have seen on many gun sites, talk about shooting at ranges less than 30 feet, I often shoot at 50 feet to 25 yards and with the 45 acp also. We must bear in mind no shooting scene looks like a shooting range and I have seen countless shooting scenes.

I would also recommend people try 3 gun shoots and various other than indoor range shooting situations to practice.

Nothing is fool proof, and risk is always there. But with the stupidity we see all too often it is only a matter of time before CPL, or OC'ers will be getting into gun play. If you are not prepared you may loose your life or cause others to loose theirs. Never stop practicing and please do something other than a 15 ft to 30 ft indoor range to broaden your muscle memory and skills.

The-Q has it right, with tear gas and pandemonium often you have no option but to seek cover and wait for a opportune time to take out the active shooter.

To the families of this horrible Colorado tragedy my heart goes out and you are in my prayers.

Well, for one, Stainless I didn't think theaters were inherently PFZs unless:
A: They have a capacity of over 2500 or
B: They have a liquor license.

In Michigan, I mean. I am aware this incident happened in CO

Am I incorrect here?


Secondly:


I have been thinking about this, since I'm seeing the movie tonight, and frankly it depends. Is it tiered seating? How smoky was the room? Are you with family who you are responsible for protecting or are you alone? It sounded like the gunman was firing from the aisle into the crowd. Depending on where you were sitting, theres a decent chance of having a clear shot and even decent cover depending on the layout of the theater.

Just because his chest is armored does not mean his head, arms, and legs are too, and in a situation like that I would think, provided you can do so safely, you should shoot whatever is available, for as long as it is available, until something else becomes available.

Use your own judgement but look at the sides of the theater in the below picture.

Best image I could find, but the local Star has walls like this that go from the top of the tiered seating area [about 20 feet up] to about midway though the theater, with the entrances being down that hallway and underneath the seats/projection booth. That setup would allow for decent cover and a relatively clear shooting lane, depending on how obscuring the gas was. Especially considering that, since there are exits on both sides, the crowd will likely run towards the side where the gunman isn't

...so, depends on a lot of factors.

 

[stainless1911]

The vote is expected to be close, well, before this happened. Do you trust your .gov? Would you really put it past them? Do you think a few lives matter to them more than this ban? They would count it as an acceptable loss, few to save many.

 

[Bailenforcer]

Always remember to be effective one must not become fodder. Thinking it out makes you potentially more effective. Oh and youth does not make ones thoughts less than those of someone older. You have earned respect already for standing on principle. In combat there is fodder and thinkers, and more times than not it is the thinkers that triumph over evil. Protecting ones family is always first because that is our responsibility. I go armed enough for actual combat because of past experiences. If I am to die for a cause, I want the evil to leave this world with me. It's the least I can do.

Personally, coming from a young man like myself this might not carry much weight, but I always wanted to be a Marine. They won't take me, but I wanted to be one to help stop insane and evil crap like this. So that being said, I would get my loved ones down, then close to engage. If it makes me a target so be it. Better than someone else.

 

[ken243]

Media rumor says he had a groin protector attached to his vest also. Now unless people do not know a solid hit in a vest by a heavy caliber hand gun will often drop someone to their knees........

That is also what the police chief reported. I concur with your information about taking hit to the vest and the weaknesses. What is that old saying? Two to the chest one to the head.

 

[ken243]

Has everybody contacted their reps today and thanked them for not allowing SB-59 to go through, reminding them that this type of situation could possibly happen in our state as well. No guarantees that a person with a legal gun would have done anything, but in many MI theaters we know that since there are more then 2500 seats that no one is allowed the option to defend their family.

Don't forget to thank Senate Majority Leader Randy Richardville for his failure to move this bill forward.
Remind him that if he had pushed the bill forward and it failed at least he acted, instead he does nothing except give excuses.
Actions speak louder then words.

I liked your suggestion so much I did just that. I now await my copy of the "thank you for writing" response.

 

[ken243]

There's no need for carry in a theater- since it's a PFZ, we're all perfectly safe. An event like this would never happen in MI.

/sarcasm