CO Shooting

[HankT]

But either way, the whole GFZ concept isn't stopping any crime, only enabling it more and more.

How do you know these two assertions are true?

 

[Ezerharden]

How do you know these two assertions are true?

School shootings except in Utah (CC allowed)
Ohio has "Magic Signs", signs with the force of law that businesses can use to say they want no guns (most frequently robbed businesses)
Church shootings except where the Elders have openly allowed CC or OC

Not exactly "proof" but does show a pattern.

 

[Michigander]

Unless there is something I'm missing, I'd say even a very capable and well armed person would have had a hard time stopping this jerk. The average CCW type license holder I have even less faith in.

My understanding, could be wrong this early in the story coming out, is that he used tear gas. Irritant gas and pepper spray, the first time you get hit by them create a major panic feeling. Without previous experience with it, and a decent dose, this could make a swift and effective reaction almost impossible.

Add in the darkness/flashing light from the movie, people running all over the place frantically from the panic of being tear gassed and being afraid of dying, and you've got a hell of a mess.

Then combine these things with the guys armor, and the fact he probably wouldn't have stopped unless shot to the ground.

Impossible for someone with a sidearm to make a difference? Not at all. But difficult to the extent that it'd be unlikely, especially for a single defender, to have stopped him quickly. For that reason, I'd say it was essentially a terrorist attack. Almost as unstoppable and as low of a blow as a bombing.

Yes, the theater should be ridiculed and perhaps sued for its no guns policy. But no, I don't think it's an overly political issue, at least in terms of pro vs anti gun. It was a massacre, nothing more and nothing less.

 

[stainless1911]

How do you know these two assertions are true?

Because most mass shootings happen in PFZs.

 

[stainless1911]

Time to take back our right to carry AP handgun rounds.

 

[M1fan1942]

Unless there is something I'm missing, I'd say even a very capable and well armed person would have had a hard time stopping this jerk. The average CCW type license holder I have even less faith in.

My understanding, could be wrong this early in the story coming out, is that he used tear gas. Irritant gas and pepper spray, the first time you get hit by them create a major panic feeling. Without previous experience with it, and a decent dose, this could make a swift and effective reaction almost impossible.

Add in the darkness/flashing light from the movie, people running all over the place frantically from the panic of being tear gassed and being afraid of dying, and you've got a hell of a mess.

Then combine these things with the guys armor, and the fact he probably wouldn't have stopped unless shot to the ground.

Impossible for someone with a sidearm to make a difference? Not at all. But difficult to the extent that it'd be unlikely, especially for a single defender, to have stopped him quickly. For that reason, I'd say it was essentially a terrorist attack. Almost as unstoppable and as low of a blow as a bombing.

Yes, the theater should be ridiculed and perhaps sued for its no guns policy. But no, I don't think it's an overly political issue, at least in terms of pro vs anti gun. It was a massacre, nothing more and nothing less.

I couldn't agree more. It would be a very difficult engagement. Maybe almost impossible. But I rather die trying to stop it than sit there hoping a .223 doesn't find me or my loved ones.

 

[stainless1911]

It is a good argument for LGOC though, your 30-06 round would go right through that vest.

 

[Michigander]

I couldn't agree more. It would be a very difficult engagement. Maybe almost impossible. But I rather die trying to stop it than sit there hoping a .223 doesn't find me or my loved ones.

Same here. Better to charge the guy and die stopping him, than to completely allow what unfolded. That is if you can manage to function after getting tear gassed.

It is a good argument for LGOC though, your 30-06 round would go right through that vest.

Are you sure he was wearing a level 3 or less? If you aren't, what you're saying isn't true, never mind the forum rules. I haven't yet seen an account of the type of vest he was wearing.

 

[stainless1911]

Should take out a helmet though. What type of headgear was he wearing?

 

[Super Trucker]

Unless there is something I'm missing, I'd say even a very capable and well armed person would have had a hard time stopping this jerk. The average CCW type license holder I have even less faith in.

My understanding, could be wrong this early in the story coming out, is that he used tear gas. Irritant gas and pepper spray, the first time you get hit by them create a major panic feeling. Without previous experience with it, and a decent dose, this could make a swift and effective reaction almost impossible.

Add in the darkness/flashing light from the movie, people running all over the place frantically from the panic of being tear gassed and being afraid of dying, and you've got a hell of a mess.

Then combine these things with the guys armor, and the fact he probably wouldn't have stopped unless shot to the ground.

Impossible for someone with a sidearm to make a difference? Not at all. But difficult to the extent that it'd be unlikely, especially for a single defender, to have stopped him quickly. For that reason, I'd say it was essentially a terrorist attack. Almost as unstoppable and as low of a blow as a bombing.

Yes, the theater should be ridiculed and perhaps sued for its no guns policy. But no, I don't think it's an overly political issue, at least in terms of pro vs anti gun. It was a massacre, nothing more and nothing less.

I agree with you and TheQ and any other that have said the gas would most likely make it impossible to do anything. Unfortunately in MI the ass clowns lawmakers don't even allow you the opportunity to attempt to save you self or family.
If a person were able to have a 10% chance of functioning in the gas, that is still stripped away by the current laws.

My anti gun senator told me 2 weeks ago that 72% of MI residents say that guns shouldn't be allowed in PFZ's.

In April of this year a survey conducted by EPIC/MRA found that lifting the ban in the no carry zones is opposed by 72 percent of Michigan voters and 53 percent of those who have a concealed weapons permit.

 

[Super Trucker]

I liked your suggestion so much I did just that. I now await my copy of the "thank you for writing" response.

Thank you.

 

[Truckdriver1975]

Like others have said, I'd rather have a small chance of success with my gun than be completely at the mercy of a madman without it. I respect a company's right to ban guns, and I also take advantage of the freedom to go to a small local theatre that has no signs posted.

 

[Shadow Bear]

Perhaps a motivated law abiding citizen wouldn't be able to take him out, but they may at least slow him down, buying time for more to escape. Maybe even cause him to reconsider.

When he was faced with armed police outside, he just caved. Who's to say it wouldn't have been the same inside, when faced with a lawfully armed citizen?

 

[stainless1911]

Exactly Shadow. Most predators will stop when charged themselves. Staring down the barrel of a handgun into the eyes of someone resolved to use it is a pretty hard thing to fight against.

 

[M1fan1942]

I'm sure there are posts about this in the colorado pages and you will most likley hear about it elsewhere.. but incase you haven't yet.. :uhoh:


For those who are interested, I will be on WXYZ Am 1270 with Charlie Langton Monday morning at 7am to debate gun control and the recent horrid shooting in CO. The question is "If law abiding gun carriers had been allowed to carry their guns in the movie theatre in Colorado could the disaster have been prevented or minimized?" Should be a good debate. I will stand my ground to the best of my abilities.

 

[DrTodd]

Interesting analysis:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2...ed_the_aurora_shooting_a_second_opinion_.html

 

[Michigander]

Interesting analysis:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2...ed_the_aurora_shooting_a_second_opinion_.html

This guy Greg Block is cited at the end of the article as believing that the killer is likely a video gamer.

That was my guess as well, going by the Dave Grossman material I have studied.

According to Dave, the price of fake violence in video games is often real death, because it provides a source of uncontrolled, undisciplined operant conditioning. I would frankly be shocked if this guy isn't a classic case of it.

 

[DrTodd]

This guy Greg Block is cited at the end of the article as believing that the killer is likely a video gamer.

That was my guess as well, going by the Dave Grossman material I have studied.

According to Dave, the price of fake violence in video games is often real death, because it provides a source of uncontrolled, undisciplined operant conditioning. I would frankly be shocked if this guy isn't a classic case of it.

I've also read Grossman's research; I think his point is true to a point. I think he may have touched upon other factors including what I believe may be a larger influence, but his major focus was the video-game aspect. However, since Grossman's research was constrained by his military focus, I think that the influence of psychotropics may ALSO have a significant influence. My guess, and as I am unaware of his psycho-biological history this is only a GUESS, is that his behavior may be the result of taking medicine for either depression and/or anxiety. Don't get me wrong, my point is not to discredit people who have suffered from either condition to the point that medication is prescribed. But, by changing the brain's chemistry to the point that the anxiety or depression is alleviated, there may at times be "too much of a good thing".

 

[Michigander]

Interesting theory, and one which I have no real knowledge on.

Can you suggest any research material?

 

[stainless1911]

I've seen this many times, and had negative side effects from such things myself. That is one reason that I am such a stong supporter of marijuana.

My x's sister came up from Tennessee a couple weeks ago with her 4 kids 5 through 13. These kids were impossible, putting it nicely. I suspected they were on something, sure enough, mom pulls out a gallon ziploc bag full of pills. :banghead: