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Clark County Handgun Registration program revisited

SoLasVegas

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2010
Messages
120
Location
Las Vegas, ,
Must one "have standing" or some harm to them before a suit can be filed?

It's not a stretch to say that the hours wasted at a LVMPD substation to get your firearm registered are an undue burden that is not imposed on others. Calculate what your time is worth and list that as damages. That might be enough.
 

MAC702

Campaign Veteran
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Messages
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Location
Nevada
I was thinking of OC'ing while attempting to register. You are fully complying with the law while ATTEMPTING to comply with another law, but ________________________ (fill in the blank).
 

The Big Guy

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Waco, TX
Just thinking... rather than a law suit, perhaps "pointing out" to the legislators at the next session that the law they previously passed is inconsistent with the provisions of the state constitution might get the ball rolling. Perhaps at least it would add a little "spice" to all the rest of the "crap" that will be thrown.

Are you listening NVFAC?

What if we had a national organization (or even NVFAC) behind us to at least threaten the State AG with a lawsuit regarding that portion of preemption that gives Clark County a pass on this issue in violation of the US 14th amendment, and Article 4, Section 21 of the NV Constitution? Let's remember that Masto backed down over the state parks issue when suit was brought by Mountain States Legal Foundation.

If she backed down on that, would she back down on the grandfather clause to state preemption? As I see it, Clark County would not even be a party to the action as it would be directed to state law not county law. The emphasis would be on striking that portion and requiring Clark County to then abide by full preemption.

Thoughts?

TBG
 

The Big Guy

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Must one "have standing" or some harm to them before a suit can be filed?

Al Baker of ID, was threatened with six months' jail time if he fired his gun in Nevada state parks, even in self-defense. That was enough to give him standing to suit the state of NV park system. AG Masto backed down and now we can carry in state parks. I'm sure a plaintiff could be found somewhere for this issue.

TBG
 

The Big Guy

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Yes. How do we proceed?

I have inquired of Don Turner of NVFAC and will await his response. If they can't be moved to move on it, then I will start contacting other firearms rights organizations to see if there is anyone interested in getting involved.

TBG
 

DVC

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City? Who wants to live in a CITY?, Nevada, USA
Must one "have standing" or some harm to them before a suit can be filed?

No, you can file suit for anything that you like.

However, if you have no standing, the opposition can usually get summary dismissal.

What you really need down there is a volunteer to openly refuse to register ANY firearm (someone moving from outside the area, or someone with no currently-registered firearms).

The county will then have two choices -- prosecute or ignore it. If they prosecute, that person thus has standing to challenge the regulation (and we can all help support the costs). If they do NOT prosecute (which is possible -- prosecution costs money and there is no real point to it in this situation), people can pretty much ignore the regulation . . .then if they ever DO zap someone, it can be argued that the regulation had been vacated through non-enforcement. The county will then have to go to the expense and trouble to explain how the regulation is still grandfathered if not enforced.

Remember also that this is NOT a LAW -- counties don't have the power to write law. It is a REGULATION, which is nothing more than a way that the county chooses to do things, and only stands today because the county is claiming that it conforms to the law.
 

usmcmustang

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Remember also that this is NOT a LAW -- counties don't have the power to write law. It is a REGULATION, which is nothing more than a way that the county chooses to do things, and only stands today because the county is claiming that it conforms to the law.

No, it is not a REGULATION... it is a County Ordinance/Code. Here it is:


12.04.110 - Registration of pistols within seventy-two hours.


Any resident of the county receiving title to a pistol, whether by purchase, gift, or any other transfer, and whether from a dealer or from any other person, shall, within seventy-two hours of such receipt, personally appear at the county sheriff's office, together with the pistol, for the purpose of registering the same with the sheriff. It shall be the duty of the sheriff to register the pistol, and he may, and is hereby authorized to cooperate in any manner he sees fit with other law enforcement agencies, and with licensed dealers, relative to registration of pistols, so that efficient registration shall be secured at minimum cost and duplication. (Ord. 3571 § 3, 2007: Ord. 242 § 11, 1965)


State executive agencies carry out state laws through the development and enforcement of regulations. Authorized by statutes, regulations (sometimes called rules or administrative laws) have the effect of law. Someone violating a regulation is, in effect, violating the law that created it. However, this County Ordinance is definitely not a REGULATION. Just as a state may delegate the authority to make regulations to administrative agencies, it may also delegate certain powers to other units of government within the state. County and municipal governments DO enact laws, often called ordinances, via specific powers granted to them by the state. County and municipal ordinances apply to everyone within the county or municipality limits.

If "Any resident" does not comply with the ordinance, a "law" is broken... not a "regulation."
 

DVC

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No, it is not a REGULATION... it is a County Ordinance/Code.

. . .which is another word for regulation.

All institutional legal power rests with the state, though with the states' ratification of the Constitution of the United States, some powers have been delegated to the Federal government.

Counties, cities, towns and special bodies such as fire and school districts are granted limited regulatory power by the state. The codes, ordinances, regulations etc can be vacated by the state (which is what we want to happen in this case), and DO NOT have the power of law in and of themselves. Violation of these can result in a stay in city or county jail, but not a prison sentence.

When I use the word "law," I mean a statute (which may be either a felony or a misdemeanor) rather than an ordinance, code, regulation, etc. (which may be a misdemeanor or an infraction). You are using the word to include regulations, codes, etc, which is not quite accurate. A cop from anywhere in Nevada has the authority to enforce a Nevada statute anywhere in the state. A cop from Reno does not have the authority to enforce Las Vegas city codes unless a specific enabling regulation exists between the two cities. He also can't enforce Reno codes anywhere outside of Reno, and can't make an arrest on an in-town violation of those codes outside of Reno (that's why they get a local cop to go with them if they are making such an arrest). City courts may not try statue violations, and technically neither can county courts -- a Superior Court is "in and for" the county which it serves, and Superior Court judges are elected within that county, but their authority is actually delegated by the state.

One example of the difference between law and regulation is DUI. There is a state law making DUI a criminal offense, punishable by a term in prison, IN ADDITION to the vehicle code REGULATION against DUI, which specifies administrative punishment (points put on your driving record).
 

usmcmustang

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Las Vegas, NV & Southern Utah
. . .which is another word for regulation.

All institutional legal power rests with the state, though with the states' ratification of the Constitution of the United States, some powers have been delegated to the Federal government.

Counties, cities, towns and special bodies such as fire and school districts are granted limited regulatory power by the state. The codes, ordinances, regulations etc can be vacated by the state (which is what we want to happen in this case), and DO NOT have the power of law in and of themselves. Violation of these can result in a stay in city or county jail, but not a prison sentence.

When I use the word "law," I mean a statute (which may be either a felony or a misdemeanor) rather than an ordinance, code, regulation, etc. (which may be a misdemeanor or an infraction). You are using the word to include regulations, codes, etc, which is not quite accurate. A cop from anywhere in Nevada has the authority to enforce a Nevada statute anywhere in the state. A cop from Reno does not have the authority to enforce Las Vegas city codes unless a specific enabling regulation exists between the two cities. He also can't enforce Reno codes anywhere outside of Reno, and can't make an arrest on an in-town violation of those codes outside of Reno (that's why they get a local cop to go with them if they are making such an arrest). City courts may not try statue violations, and technically neither can county courts -- a Superior Court is "in and for" the county which it serves, and Superior Court judges are elected within that county, but their authority is actually delegated by the state.

One example of the difference between law and regulation is DUI. There is a state law making DUI a criminal offense, punishable by a term in prison, IN ADDITION to the vehicle code REGULATION against DUI, which specifies administrative punishment (points put on your driving record).

Excuse me... but I think you have said basically the same thing I have... but with more words.

And as far as city and county courts trying statute violations... they do it all the time, don't they? Check out a ticket/citation and it will say: Violation NRS whatever, and when you show up in municipal or county court that NRS violation with be referred to in the arraignment. The JURISDICTIONS of a city or county court are relegated to misdemeanor cases, but the alleged violations of LAWS that come before those courts are violations of statutes. However, county Superior Courts do have jurisdiction to try felony cases.

Maybe I'm not understanding what it is you are trying to "push" here. I understand the DUI thing... there's criminal penalty as well as administrative or "regulatory" penalty. One doesn't have to be "convicted" of DUI for the administrative penalty to kick into gear. But a municipal or county court CAN try a DUI case and it would be tried as a statute violation, would it not? Either of those two courts would be limited in their jurisdiction over the offense as to punishment, right? Or are you saying only a county Superior Court can/could try a DUI case? Again, I know you're trying to "cut the baby" here with respect to the difference in a "law" and a "regulation." I understand the difference... I think. Only a "law making" body can make "law." However, to implement that "law," an "executive" body has to wright and disseminate "regulations." And I also understand that municipalities and counties only have "authority" because the state has bestowed upon them limited authority. So what IS you point?
 

DVC

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Excuse me... but I think you have said basically the same thing I have... but with more words.

Sorry, occupational hazard.

And as far as city and county courts trying statute violations... they do it all the time, don't they? Check out a ticket/citation and it will say: Violation NRS whatever, and when you show up in municipal or county court that NRS violation with be referred to in the arraignment.

You halfway got me there.

Local courts are like local cops -- the state delegates power to them, because there aren't enough state courts or state cops. But like I said, a Nevada cop can enforce Nevada statutes anywhere in the state.

Maybe I'm not understanding what it is you are trying to "push" here.

What I'm trying to push is that the Clark County registration scheme is on a level BELOW that of statute. It's more or less like a parking ticket. Looking around online, I'm unable to find the actual ordinance, so I'm not sure what penalty they are threatening you with, but I also can't find a reference to anyone being punished for violation.

The bottom line is that you need someone to openly refuse to register, then either be prosecuted or ignored.
 

The Big Guy

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Waco, TX
Sorry, occupational hazard.



You halfway got me there.

Local courts are like local cops -- the state delegates power to them, because there aren't enough state courts or state cops. But like I said, a Nevada cop can enforce Nevada statutes anywhere in the state.



What I'm trying to push is that the Clark County registration scheme is on a level BELOW that of statute. It's more or less like a parking ticket. Looking around online, I'm unable to find the actual ordinance, so I'm not sure what penalty they are threatening you with, but I also can't find a reference to anyone being punished for violation.

The bottom line is that you need someone to openly refuse to register, then either be prosecuted or ignored.

So not only is the question of how many cases have been solved with county registration, but how many people have been cited for failure to register and of those cited, how many convictions? Then assuming the answers are nearly zero and zero, factoring in the cost of the program all these years to both county and cities, it would be strong incentive, with lots of press coverage, for the county commission to do away with it here on a local level.

There are many ways to tackle this problem. As I have said before, it may take coming at them from all sides to get'r done...

TBG
 

usmcmustang

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393
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Las Vegas, NV & Southern Utah
Looking around online, I'm unable to find the actual ordinance, so I'm not sure what penalty they are threatening you with, but I also can't find a reference to anyone being punished for violation.

Here's the ordinance and the penalty associated with its violation:

12.04.110 - Registration of pistols within seventy-two hours.


Any resident of the county receiving title to a pistol, whether by purchase, gift, or any other transfer, and whether from a dealer or from any other person, shall, within seventy-two hours of such receipt, personally appear at the county sheriff's office, together with the pistol, for the purpose of registering the same with the sheriff. It shall be the duty of the sheriff to register the pistol, and he may, and is hereby authorized to cooperate in any manner he sees fit with other law enforcement agencies, and with licensed dealers, relative to registration of pistols, so that efficient registration shall be secured at minimum cost and duplication. (Ord. 3571 § 3, 2007: Ord. 242 § 11, 1965)

12.04.220 - Penalty for violation of Sections 12.


Any person who violates any of the provisions of Sections 12.04.010 through 12.04.210 is guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for a term not to exceed six months or by a fine of not to exceed five hundred dollars, or by both.

Oh, and I'm not being threatened with anything... yet. I haven't been accused of anything... just engaging you and others in conversation. ;o)

Oh, Oh, and as far as numbers of individuals having been cited or in fact punished for violation... seems to me that could be the subject of a NORA request. It would take the County some "diggin" perhaps but they'd have to respond with "something." Maybe a NORA request for "numbers" back through 1965... or at least back through 2007? Might also ask for actual "numbers" of registrations. Hey, this could be fun.
 
Last edited:

varminter22

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Dec 19, 2007
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927
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Fallon, Nevada, USA
It is time (past time, actually!) for the registration scheme to go and that is one of the legislative priorities of NVFAC. We plan to have introduced a pre-emption bill that will also tackle registration at the next legislature.

METRO is reportedly 64 million in the red.

An audit of the Clark County Firearms Registration Unit was requested of Tom Collins by NVFAC and NRA-ILA.


http://www.stillwaterfirearms.org/p...udit request from CC TomCollins_May3_2012.pdf

There are three ways to attack it:

Have the County Commission repeal the ordinance,

Have the METRO finance committee (county commission and city council) de fund it.

Take its authority away by legislature.

NVFAC is currently working at all three levels.

This is high priority for NVFAC - “one gun law for all of Nevada” - so registration, preemption, castle doctrine (civil protection), are all hot buttons. We are going to move forward with soliciting money for a PAC and want to hire a lobbyist for next legislative session, BUT we need people to turn out to the public hearings. Our plan was to get organized and build membership and then get ready for the legislature. We lost a good ally with Senator Lee who was going introduce pre-emption, so we are contacting others to see if they will introduce the bill.


In 2007 we had a repeal bill (SB-92) at the legislature and VERY few people showed up for the public hearing. Among others, I (as SFA) and Don Turner (currently NVFAC President) testified in support of the original bill. If we had had 100 (or more!) show up, registration would likely be gone by now. Effectually, the NV Sheriffs & Chiefs Ass'n swayed the handgun registration debate in their favor. SB-92 as amended did pass, but as amended it simply watered down the time requirements for registration in Clark County. I can personally attest to the importance of attending and speaking at legislative hearings, and contacting legislators via email, phone, & letter.
 

The Big Guy

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Messages
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Waco, TX
It is time (past time, actually!) for the registration scheme to go and that is one of the legislative priorities of NVFAC. We plan to have introduced a pre-emption bill that will also tackle registration at the next legislature.

METRO is reportedly 64 million in the red.

An audit of the Clark County Firearms Registration Unit was requested of Tom Collins by NVFAC and NRA-ILA.


http://www.stillwaterfirearms.org/p...udit request from CC TomCollins_May3_2012.pdf

There are three ways to attack it:

Have the County Commission repeal the ordinance,

Have the METRO finance committee (county commission and city council) de fund it.

Take its authority away by legislature.

NVFAC is currently working at all three levels.

This is high priority for NVFAC - “one gun law for all of Nevada” - so registration, preemption, castle doctrine (civil protection), are all hot buttons. We are going to move forward with soliciting money for a PAC and want to hire a lobbyist for next legislative session, BUT we need people to turn out to the public hearings. Our plan was to get organized and build membership and then get ready for the legislature. We lost a good ally with Senator Lee who was going introduce pre-emption, so we are contacting others to see if they will introduce the bill.


In 2007 we had a repeal bill (SB-92) at the legislature and VERY few people showed up for the public hearing. Among others, I (as SFA) and Don Turner (currently NVFAC President) testified in support of the original bill. If we had had 100 (or more!) show up, registration would likely be gone by now. Effectually, the NV Sheriffs & Chiefs Ass'n swayed the handgun registration debate in their favor. SB-92 as amended did pass, but as amended it simply watered down the time requirements for registration in Clark County. I can personally attest to the importance of attending and speaking at legislative hearings, and contacting legislators via email, phone, & letter.

There are 2 other ways, through the courts, and ballot initiative.

TBG
 

DON`T TREAD ON ME

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Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
We have a recent plaintiff that went to Jail for a unregistered firearm, that was registered 8 months previous, We have the proof. the other part of the puzzle is the fact that every firearm registrant in Clark County is exposed to the incarceration this guy was, we could be talking Class Action. If we start pledging donations to show that we are serious, I belive I have an experienced Attorney who would look at it. we would need to get a crew together to be class plaintiffs and decision makers, What do you think?
 
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