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Are sites like this one in danger of net nuetrality

twoskinsonemanns

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
2,326
Location
WV
I only have 3M download adsl available out in my very rural area. If this ruling will force a company to run fiber to my house and then spread the cost onto the rest of you guys I'm all for it!
:banana:
 

J_dazzle23

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2013
Messages
643
I only have 3M download adsl available out in my very rural area. If this ruling will force a company to run fiber to my house and then spread the cost onto the rest of you guys I'm all for it!
:banana:
Haha! I know your kinda just joking, but that's the other part of it. Some rural areas, to run a fiber or dedicated line would be an astronomical cost, so if mandated to service those areas, I would think we could see a shrinking of ISP'S into a few huge companies, and small ones would fall by the wayside.

I doubt this would happen though. But I don't think people(government) realizes the price tag for expanding high speed networks. Even a HUGE company like Google is just creeping along with their fiber product, taking a few cities at a time, with billions spend on rollouts.
 

b0neZ

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
505
Location
Davis County, Utah
I only have 3M download adsl available out in my very rural area. If this ruling will force a company to run fiber to my house and then spread the cost onto the rest of you guys I'm all for it!
:banana:

I'm too far rural even for ADSL! Thankfully I do have unlimited data on my phone, though.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
I'm too far rural even for ADSL! Thankfully I do have unlimited data on my phone, though.
Which begs the question, will that service be taking an astronomical increase as a result of increased revenue potential with any new regulations?
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Smart [electric] meters are the vehicle to control the citizenry...no tricity, no access, no problems. ;)

A distraction to shift our gaze from the real threat posed by the federal government.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Smart [electric] meters are the vehicle to control the citizenry...no tricity, no access, no problems. ;)

A distraction to shift our gaze from the real threat posed by the federal government.

Smart meters, smart HW heaters, smart thermostats, smart vehicle controllers, smart phones, smart TVs, and smart computers.

Problem is when I buy it, I don't want to be told that it is OK to use it if I stay off the grass by a government that is likely tracking me through that device and merchants who record where I go, how often, and how I use the equipment.

While I do not think of myself as a puppet, I still keep tripping on the "some strings attached" thing.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Smart meters, smart HW heaters, smart thermostats, smart vehicle controllers, smart phones, smart TVs, and smart computers.

Problem is when I buy it, I don't want to be told that it is OK to use it if I stay off the grass by a government that is likely tracking me through that device and merchants who record where I go, how often, and how I use the equipment.

While I do not think of myself as a puppet, I still keep tripping on the "some strings attached" thing.
You do not buy a smart meter, you are provided one, for free, with little chance to opt out. There are stories of the consequences of trying to opt out.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
You do not buy a smart meter, you are provided one, for free, with little chance to opt out. There are stories of the consequences of trying to opt out.
Some people have gone off grid and have been so successful that the local power company has had to buy their excess generated electricity.

A well know user/member here has accomplished just that.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Some people have gone off grid and have been so successful that the local power company has had to buy their excess generated electricity.

A well know user/member here has accomplished just that.
Great, but he is not off the grid, just getting paid to be on the grid. The vast majority of our fellow citizens are not so fortunate. Exceptions exists all around us.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Great, but he is not off the grid, just getting paid to be on the grid. The vast majority of our fellow citizens are not so fortunate. Exceptions exists all around us.

Being "off grid" generally refers to not buying utility services from an outside source. What one might sell has nothing to do with it.

Consider that someone owns a self-sustaining ranch/farm where they raise all of their own food. The fact that they may sell their excess does not change the fact that they are not consumers of the manufactured product.

Both IMO are "off grid" as it relates outside services v. self-generation of said product.
 

b0neZ

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
505
Location
Davis County, Utah
Which begs the question, will that service be taking an astronomical increase as a result of increased revenue potential with any new regulations?

Not certain on that. Fee increases are not unexpected, but I doubt a price hike for the service itself (been "Grandfathered" in this plan for a couple of years now).

It's an excellent point to ponder, though.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Everybody wants to save money, reduce expenses. If we reduce our electric usage by 20%, the local power company will have less income and want to raise their rates.

Conversely, demand more and better service and the same company will request a rate increase to pay for the improvements.

We are faced with the same sort of dilemma regarding the internet.

Want better service AND lower rates.....lol.......don't we all?
 

b0neZ

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
505
Location
Davis County, Utah
The save resources = rate increase due to falling income thing happened in California some time ago.

Californians were on water rationing due to drought (hmmm...currently the same situation), were told to save water and how to do it.

People obviously got on board. They did so well, that the suppliers lost a lot of revenue and raised rates to compensate.

Same thing happened with electricity,though obviously not because of drought.

Same thing happened with gasoline prices nationwide.
 

Jack House

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2010
Messages
2,611
Location
I80, USA
I'll be more clear, if you aren't following. If Comcast has 20 people sharing a 100mb port, and they are all paying 75 bucks a month, Comcast will provision the line and tell them they have a 20mb connection, even though the line is 100 shared between say, 20 clients. If they don't throttle services that are high bandwidth at peak usage times, their connection is going to max out. That is how they keep costs down for the end user. If you think they should provision the line for max speed for everyone on the line at 20mbps all at once, that's fine, but they incur a higher cost (infrastructure and THEIR upstream bandwidth provider) so expect internet connectivity prices to go up.

You can't pay for a dsl or Comcast line for 75 bucks a month and expect to get the quality of a dedicated fiber line.

And you still have no idea what you're talking about.

Net neutrality has nothing to do with the amount of bandwidth sold to consumers. It also has nothing to do with QoS traffic shaping, nor does it even require a provider provide the service being sold. All it does is prevent the provider from unfairly throttling services.

Which various ISPs were doing at all times during the day and night, not just during peak usage hours.

Finally, if Comcast sells a service, it needs to be able to deliver that service.


So called "Net Neutrality" has no more to do with lowering costs or improving service to the consumer than did Obamacare.

And no one is claiming that it will lower costs. The only claim is that it will stop ISPs from throttling specific services. Other than that, no one is claiming that it will improve services either.

Your argument is a strawman.

Like so called "gun control", and "Global Warming....er Climate Change", all of these things are about control; controlling the population.

Talk radio and the internet have proved very annoying to the powers-that-be. They have allowed the citizenry to find out they are not alone in their political and social views. What they are spoon fed by the mainstream media and by the ultra-liberal, atheistic Hollywood and NewYork entertainment studios is objectionable to others as well.

Free speech is at least as dangerous as are guns in private hands.

And being able to control when you, your parent, or your child can get medical treatment provides a huge leverage over you and your conduct.

Charles

Once again, the rules adopted by the FCC do not restrict the flow of information. It does the opposite.

Sounds like he knows what he's talking about to me.

Link where you read the rules the FCC adopted?

http://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-adopts-strong-sustainable-rules-protect-open-internet

Just a means of controlling the population.

Control access to weapons (via gun control); Control access to information (via "net neutrality," the "fairness doctrine" for TV and radio, and then censorship against hate speech); Control access to appliances and mobility (to save the environment); and Control access to healthcare (via mandates on insurance companies and ultimately through a socialist medical system when Obamacare fails--as it was intended to fail--and the answer to problems caused by government intrusion into the market is, yet again, more government intrusion).

I will now take off my tin foil hat and return you to your regular programming. :)

Charles
You keep claiming, why don't you explain exactly how they intend to restrict content by making it illegal to restrict content?
I only have 3M download adsl available out in my very rural area. If this ruling will force a company to run fiber to my house and then spread the cost onto the rest of you guys I'm all for it!
:banana:
That won't happen under these rules.
Haha! I know your kinda just joking, but that's the other part of it. Some rural areas, to run a fiber or dedicated line would be an astronomical cost, so if mandated to service those areas, I would think we could see a shrinking of ISP'S into a few huge companies, and small ones would fall by the wayside.

I doubt this would happen though. But I don't think people(government) realizes the price tag for expanding high speed networks. Even a HUGE company like Google is just creeping along with their fiber product, taking a few cities at a time, with billions spend on rollouts.
I have no sympathy. They were given $200,000,000,000 to build out infrastructure that they promptly sat on.
 

J_dazzle23

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2013
Messages
643
And you still have no idea what you're talking about.

Net neutrality has nothing to do with the amount of bandwidth sold to consumers. It also has nothing to do with QoS traffic shaping, nor does it even require a provider provide the service being sold. All it does is prevent the provider from unfairly throttling services.

Which various ISPs were doing at all times during the day and night, not just during peak usage hours.

Finally, if Comcast sells a service, it needs to be able to deliver that service.




And no one is claiming that it will lower costs. The only claim is that it will stop ISPs from throttling specific services. Other than that, no one is claiming that it will improve services either.

Your argument is a strawman.



Once again, the rules adopted by the FCC do not restrict the flow of information. It does the opposite.



http://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-adopts-strong-sustainable-rules-protect-open-internet


You keep claiming, why don't you explain exactly how they intend to restrict content by making it illegal to restrict content?

That won't happen under these rules.

I have no sympathy. They were given $200,000,000,000 to build out infrastructure that they promptly sat on.
Yes, it DOES have to do with that. Please cite one single time when an ISP arbitrarily throttled service due to anything other than cost management, or simply because they didn't "like" the company

I'll wait.



Also, I'd like to see where the government gave Google 200 billion and they simply "sat" on it.




Like I said, I spent the better part of a decade in this space, I know exactly what I'm talking about.


*edit- I will concur that if isp's are blocking sites arbitrarily or are not allowing access unilaterally, this is a problem. But I see nothing wrong with companies being able to pay more money for higher bandwidth needs.
 
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stealthyeliminator

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
3,100
Location
Texas
And you still have no idea what you're talking about.

Net neutrality has nothing to do with the amount of bandwidth sold to consumers. It also has nothing to do with QoS traffic shaping, nor does it even require a provider provide the service being sold. All it does is prevent the provider from unfairly throttling services.

Which various ISPs were doing at all times during the day and night, not just during peak usage hours.

Finally, if Comcast sells a service, it needs to be able to deliver that service.




And no one is claiming that it will lower costs. The only claim is that it will stop ISPs from throttling specific services. Other than that, no one is claiming that it will improve services either.

Your argument is a strawman.



Once again, the rules adopted by the FCC do not restrict the flow of information. It does the opposite.



http://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-adopts-strong-sustainable-rules-protect-open-internet


You keep claiming, why don't you explain exactly how they intend to restrict content by making it illegal to restrict content?

That won't happen under these rules.

I have no sympathy. They were given $200,000,000,000 to build out infrastructure that they promptly sat on.

Dude, you don't know what you're talking about. And no, you said you've read the RULES, which AFAIK have not been publicly released, even through leaks, yet. You linked to what amounts to a press release, which I've already seen. You are talking at such a high level, about overly simplified generalizations of what the rules hope to accomplish, not what the rules actually are or how they will actually affect the technical implementations of networks that make up the internet, or what inadvertent economic effects could be seen... Just give it a rest. You act like you're on a crusade against the 'evil' big business; logic, economics, and morality be damned.
 
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stealthyeliminator

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
3,100
Location
Texas
Yes, it DOES have to do with that. Please cite one single time when an ISP arbitrarily throttled service due to anything other than cost management, or simply because they didn't "like" the company

I'll wait.



Also, I'd like to see where the government gave Google 200 billion and they simply "sat" on it.




Like I said, I spent the better part of a decade in this space, I know exactly what I'm talking about.


*edit- I will concur that if isp's are blocking sites arbitrarily or are not allowing access unilaterally, this is a problem. But I see nothing wrong with companies being able to pay more money for higher bandwidth needs.

It's a problem that doesn't need an unelected federal bureaucracy to be fixed.
 
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Renegadez

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2011
Messages
182
Location
Lees Summit
Ok the 324 page FCC RULES are so good the were NOT publicly released to the public before this vote! The gubment saving us from ourselves its for your own protection is an out right lie. Most everyone is really missing the entire reason for this reclassification of the internet is about TAX TAX TAX TAXES and the money the gubment will now be removing from our pockets. the 2nd reason is CONTROL CONTROL CONTROL and destruction of the last free frontier for liberty and free speech. The goverment could could a rats ass whether or not basic consumer guy gets and equal speed for his netflix if anyone actually believes this they are a fool. This is why the rules have not yet been published and why 95% of America is clueless and to say it will be impossible for them to regulate this do not be fooled they will have the big easy blackout button. It is done in other countries like china they can completely shut down face book or any other media they want.
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
And no one is claiming that it will lower costs. The only claim is that it will stop ISPs from throttling specific services. Other than that, no one is claiming that it will improve services either.

Your argument is a strawman.

The claim is that Net Neutrality and other government regs will increase competition which will lead to lower prices and improved service. Or so claims,this web site.

"It's not clear yet whether Title II would indeed be necessary to force ISPs to provide better services to consumers, or that it would even work. Ideally, what we want in a market – any market – is high competition, which forces the market players to improve services and lower costs. In the U.S. that seems quite hard to achieve right now, when some states and cities even ban local competitors to the large incumbents. Given this context, Obama's proposals start to sound quite good."

If it is a strawman argument, I'm not the only one making it. Do try to get out more.


Once again, the rules adopted by the FCC do not restrict the flow of information. It does the opposite.

Are these the 300+ pages of rules that haven't been publicly released yet?

How do you KNOW what effect they will or won't have?


You keep claiming, why don't you explain exactly how they intend to restrict content by making it illegal to restrict content?

That won't happen under these rules.

Exactly how? Pretty easy really.

First option, the rules are not quite what the summary claims they are and actually give the feds broad powers to restrict the flow of information in the name of national security.

Second option, at a future date the FCC votes to interpret these rules so as to allow them to restrict information.

Third option, having established the precedence that the government can control the flow of information (by preventing content providers from restricting it themselves, even for cost reasons), they use that precedence to adopt new rules that allow them to restrict the flow of information.

When Billary told us that they didn't want to take away our hunting guns, just those dangerous "assault rifles" did we believe them?

How did promises about Obamacare reducing costs and improving care work out?

Is it really all that bad to have all private sales go through an FFL so the buyer can be background checked? They promise it won't be used to create a national registry of guns or gun owners.

Now, to be clear, I don't think agreement on RKBA presupposes any agreement in other areas of politics or life. So I've got no heartburn if you don't want to put on my tin foil hat over these new rules. I've been fairly clear that my concerns are based somewhat on paranoia about government control of anything. If you are less paranoid that I am, great.

But you're being far less civil in your responses than you need to be. You can convey your point of view without insulting the intelligence, experience, knowledge, or even opinions of the other members of the forum.

Dr. House was able to be a jerk because his competence was beyond question.

An anonymous poster on a discussion board doesn't enjoy that same benefit of the doubt and so should avoid being a jerk.

Charles
 
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