.40 Super

[The Truth]

Well, I am delving further and further into choosing my next handgun and as you may know if you've read any of my posts in the past few weeks, I was very interested and on the hunt for a S&W1026 VSP. I swear I've read everything on the internet regarding 10mm and not once have I seen anyone mention the .40 Super, or "10mm Centaur." The average price of a S&W 1006/1026 is around $800 right now on the cheap side and it seems the average price of a S&W 4506 is around $500. The 4506 can be converted to a .40 Super with a simple barrel change and recoil spring change, as can a number of other .45 ACP pistols, but for now I happen to be on a Smith and Wesson kick because I love all-steel full size semi-autos. The ballistics of the .40 Super are very impressive even compared to the 10mm, and I feel like it may be an even better choice than the 10mm. Sure, ammo will be more pricey, but that's really of no concern to me as this will likely not be my daily carry.

Anyone have any thoughts or experience with .40 Super? All ideas are welcome, even abstract ideas. I wanna hear 'em all because there really isn't a ton of info out there, and this is definitely a very interesting caliber with crazy potential.

Also henceforth, I shall refer to the .40 Super as the 10mm Centaur, because well, it sounds cool as heck!

Here are some ballistics numbers between the 2 calibers' best performing loads, 10mm and 10mm Centaur:

10mm - DoubleTap 135gr JHP - 1600fps, 767ft.lbs. energy *Underwood Ammo has identical numbers (ballistics101.com)
10mm Centaur - 135gr unknown bullet type - 1800fps, 971ft.lbs. energy

Another good link: http://www.jrwhipple.com/guns/40super.html

It seems the .40 Super is actually comparable to a .44 Magnum, ballistically speaking, with a heavier 200gr bullet. That's impressive.

 

[Levi]

Looks like a hand gun cartridge trying to compete with a 30-30. I would put this in the same category as the 500 S&W and the 480 Ruger. It's really cool and it'd be fun at the range.

IMO:

Pros: lots of power, biggest boom at the handgun range, lethal to tactical turtles in lvl 4 armor

Cons: shortened lifespan of firearm, expense of ammo (reloading would ease this), heavy recoil, rifle ranges with handgun accuracy

Would I want this as a carry cartridge? Not a chance. I'll stick with .357mag or .45ACP. Would I want to have one? ABSOLUTELY!

 

[davidmcbeth]

Whats the cost difference ... of guns & ammo?

 

[The Truth]

Cost difference with the actual gun is around -$100 for the 10mm Centaur (~$800 for the S&W 1026, ~$500 for the S&W 4506 + $200 for the barrel/spring). As said though, that cost will probably be made up in the cost of ammo. 500 rds. of .40 Super Nosler JHP from Double Tap is nearly $600, but 500 rounds would be essentially a lifetime supply for this gun and its application in my arsenal.

Then there's the fact that with the 10mm Centaur conversion I will not only be able to shoot .40 Super, but I'll also have a .45 in the same gun.

I could almost see myself owning BOTH the 10mm and the 10mm Centaur at some point, but that may be a pipe dream.

"Wildcat" rounds really get my adrenaline going. The .40 Super is especially intriguing to me because I like the caliber and the ballistics are just stoopid badass. It's a borderline sniper pistol, and with the full metal jacket semi wad cutter it's one hell of an offensive pistol with incredible penetration. It's got the velocity and flat trajectory of the hottest 9mm rounds on the light side and it's got the energy of a .44 Magnum on the heavy side. It's been proven accurate to 100+ yards even with a 5" barrel.

Also, I love Sig Sauer, and the .40 Super conversion is available for the P220 as well. I already have a P229 .40 S&W, and I think it would be super awesome to have a P220 with the same configuration in .40 Super. Funny thing is, there's a 10mm conversion available for the P220 as well, so I could conceivably own all 3 (.40 S&W, 10mm, and 10mm Centaur) and keep them all Sig. This would be ideal, although like I said I really like the S&W 4506 too.

Going 10mm/10mm Centaur will also kind of force me into the reloading world, which is something I feel I should do anyway. So that $600 for 500 rds. of DT ammo could be much cheaper if I get into reloading.

So much to think about!

 

[Marco]

IIRC, 10mm centuar came out before 10mm and it never caught on much like .41AE (action express).

There have been a number of calibers that over the yrs that try to one up existing calibers.
400 corbon
40super
9x25 dillion
9x23 winchester
450SMC (short magnum)
45super
460Rowland
22TCM

The biggest downside to all of them is they aren't on the shelf calibers, if you reload not a real issue.

Depending on your needs/wants will depend on your choice.

 

[1245A Defender]

Well,,,

IIRC, 10mm centuar came out before 10mm and it never caught on much like .41AE (action express).

There have been a number of calibers that over the yrs that try to one up existing calibers.
400 corbon
40super
9x25 dillion
9x23 winchester
450SMC (short magnum)
45super
460Rowland
22TCM

The biggest downside to all of them is they aren't on the shelf calibers, if you reload not a real issue.

Depending on your needs/wants will depend on your choice.

Most of them are wildcat cartridges that didnt have a real purpose!

But Im sorry to see you included my favorite 9X23 Winchester..
It is Not a wildcat,,,
Born as 38 auto,
Becoming the 9mm Largo, in Europe..
Loaded to be the 38 Super,
Then magnumized, 9X23 Winchester to be the big boy of that cartridge.
I have a Llama, and a Astra 400, and two Star Modelo Supers chambered in 9mm Largo.
With a recoil spring change these will happily shoot All 4 of these loadings
And they are all available commercially,,, someplace...

I have a lot of Spanish 9mm Largo for practice/fun, but
I carry 9X23 Winchester for self defense.
It the only way to roll!

 

[Primus]

Looks like a hand gun cartridge trying to compete with a 30-30. I would put this in the same category as the 500 S&W and the 480 Ruger. It's really cool and it'd be fun at the range.

IMO:

Pros: lots of power, biggest boom at the handgun range, lethal to tactical turtles in lvl 4 armor

Cons: shortened lifespan of firearm, expense of ammo (reloading would ease this), heavy recoil, rifle ranges with handgun accuracy

Would I want this as a carry cartridge? Not a chance. I'll stick with .357mag or .45ACP. Would I want to have one? ABSOLUTELY!

I'm curious about the claim this cartridge will penetrate level 4 armor. My assumption is your talking about ballistic plates (ceramic or steel). If that's the case these are usually rates for rifle rounds up to 7.62ish. I say ish because clearly they differ but that's ball park.

Its tough to believed that a bullet this fat can penetrate ceramic or steel mates. The velocity isn't fast enough.

Cite please if possible. Genuinely interested.

 

[The Truth]

I'm contacting EFK Fire Dragon as soon as their offices open tomorrow to see if they will fab me a 10mm Centaur barrel. I've only found one instance of this being done and the price was $245, so hopefully they are willing because I can't find one ANYWHERE else. I even put up a want ad on vaguntrader.

I've got a line on a decently priced Sig P220 too, so if EFKFD will make the barrel I may have made my choice. The asking price on the P220 is $700. Hopefully they will take $630. If so, done deal. If not, honestly I don't think $700 is way off. It is New In Box and never been shot. They go for over a grand otherwise.

I'm throwing $ around a little bit on this idea, but I just won my fantasy baseball prize league which will give me $600 to play with that I didn't have yesterday, so I think I should reward myself for spending thousands of hours crunching baseball stats by getting what I REALLY want. Haha!

 

[hovercat]

I think you may win the evil new caliber wars with this one. Let us know how the recoil feels.

 

[Marco]

Most of them are wildcat cartridges that didnt have a real purpose!

But Im sorry to see you included my favorite 9X23 Winchester..
It is Not a wildcat,,,
Born as 38 auto,
Becoming the 9mm Largo, in Europe..
Loaded to be the 38 Super,
Then magnumized, 9X23 Winchester to be the big boy of that cartridge.
I have a Llama, and a Astra 400, and two Star Modelo Supers chambered in 9mm Largo.
With a recoil spring change these will happily shoot All 4 of these loadings
And they are all available commercially,,, someplace...

I have a lot of Spanish 9mm Largo for practice/fun, but
I carry 9X23 Winchester for self defense.
It the only way to roll!

Most if not all those calibers can be found via smaller ammo company's.
9x23 like 38super is pretty mild when loaded by the larger ammo company's.
Iirc, winchester 9mm+p+ is hotter than their 38super, 9x23 loadings, as is many of the smaller company's 9mm+p loadings.
Being that I'm not a double stack 1911 fan I'll stick with my Coonan in 357mag if I want a 9mm loading.
I've pretty much switched to 460rowland when I want something larger dia. than .357mag.

Your needs/wants will dictate what caliber you choose.

22TCM looks promising for handgun varmit hunting.

 

[The Truth]

I think you may win the evil new caliber wars with this one. Let us know how the recoil feels.

:dude:

I'm sure it will be brutally awesome! I can't wait!

 

[The Truth]

I am disappoint...

EFK won't make a .40 Super anymore, and I can't find anyone else that will outside of a Glock platform.

On the bright side, I am now moving on to the .460 Rowland, which is actually an even more ballsy round than the .40 Super, and even more closely resembles the ballistics of a .44 Magnum in a semi-auto, which was my ultimate goal anyway.

Should I start a .460 Rowland thread?

I'm really disappointed that I have to give up on the 10mm Centaur. I really had my heart set on it.

 

[The Truth]

Can I get this moved to General Discussion or The Lounge so more people will see it? If not, no biggie. I think I'll start a wilcat/high pressure round thread soon anyway.

 

[Levi]

I'm curious about the claim this cartridge will penetrate level 4 armor. My assumption is your talking about ballistic plates (ceramic or steel). If that's the case these are usually rates for rifle rounds up to 7.62ish. I say ish because clearly they differ but that's ball park.

Its tough to believed that a bullet this fat can penetrate ceramic or steel mates. The velocity isn't fast enough.

Cite please if possible. Genuinely interested.

First, I said "lethal" not that it would penetrate. Most ballistic armor are very effective at preventing penetration at larger calibers.

The vest may or may not stop the bullet but the resulting trauma at handgun ranges (15-25yds) will result in serious injuries. For most people they would definitely be in the "life threatening" category if not killing outright. Think of it like an unarmored person being hit in the chest with a sledge hammer.

I am looking for the cite on the study I read about the effects of a .44mag vs body armor that shows this. If I find it, I'll put up the info.

 

[Primus]

First, I said "lethal" not that it would penetrate. Most ballistic armor are very effective at preventing penetration at larger calibers.

The vest may or may not stop the bullet but the resulting trauma at handgun ranges (15-25yds) will result in serious injuries. For most people they would definitely be in the "life threatening" category if not killing outright. Think of it like an unarmored person being hit in the chest with a sledge hammer.

I am looking for the cite on the study I read about the effects of a .44mag vs body armor that shows this. If I find it, I'll put up the info.

Thanks for the clarification. My mistake I assumed you were talking penetration not blunt force trauma. My apologies.

 

[Levi]

Thanks for the clarification. My mistake I assumed you were talking penetration not blunt force trauma. My apologies.

No need to apologize. Your question was legitimate and very welcome.

 

[skidmark]

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