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No EMPTY Gun Holsters Allowed In St.Louis Zoo!

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JEStucker

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Just contacted him via phone, and will be sending him documentation.

Was going to recommend Kevin Jamison as well. He's probably the number one guy in the state for Missouri Gun Law.

I would also recommend Gun Owners of America, under contacts they have a tab for legal questions. Possibly also contact the NRA, they may have someone as well.
 

deepdiver

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In Missouri, this is the first place to start: http://www.kljamisonlaw.com/

Mr. Jamison literally wrote the book on gun laws in Missouri and is probably the best at the game. He on the west side of the state though, and isn't a huge fan of open carry. He would be worth talking to at a minimum. You're likely to get a short preaching to though.
Yes, but this is not an open carry issue. This is a carry issue. It is also now a preemption issue and, well ...

The zoo is essentially claiming exemption from pre-emption, that their rules are equivalent to municipal ordinances, that they are not a a gov't entity, that they are an enumerated gov't entity even though not enumerated, that 21.750 means that you can only OC where you can CC, that because they received an award from an organization with the word "Amusement" in the title and because people can have fun at the zoo it is an amusement park, that their strictly public entity as they are required to be and remain in their creation statute is a commercial enterprise, that 90 acres of public lands are entirely a day care because there is a daycare center somewhere on the 90 acres and kids sometimes wander around all over, that the entire zoo is an education institution because kids go on field trips there regularly, and some other stuff not popping to mind (very busy day and I read all this early on when it first hit the STL site so CRS is kicking in).

Under their reasoning now my local Park Dept Nature Center, because they use the surrounding municipal park to educate kids about nature stuff and they host school field trips there, is now a gun free zone in the entirety of the park lands surrounding the nature as it is a school zone, and because the local elementary school regularly walks to a different park near the school for recreation that park is now also school zone or if the local daycare doesn't like the people next door they just take the kids for a daily walk around the parking lot the whole dang area is suddenly part of the flippin' day care.

And all of that is ignoring the preemption challenge, avoidance of strict scrutiny, the fact that they are a distinct political subdistrict unable to pass ordinances, etc.

IANAL, however, IMPO, they over reached dramatically. Just like with the signs - people have quietly carried CC in the zoo for nearly a decade. Just like with the empty holster - the over reacting security guards got everyone's attention on the zoo. Just like with BB62 sending a letter and saying "Hey, I don't think you can ban carry in the zoo" - could have said, please don't or if you do just CC because we have animals and stuff and don't want guns but don't want a big deal but instead spewed a bunch of nonsense to the media for days until it erupted into a FB page noticed event. Then instead of just contacting BB62 and following up with a yeah, we probably can't stop you at this point but it would be really great if you didn't have an armed march in the zoo and freak out the West County soccer moms (To which BB62 could have clarified, yet again, that he had no intention to organize an armed walk/march into the zoo as he had said repeatedly the HE and PEYTON were intending to go into the zoo together and in his letters only said the HE intended to carry, despite the argument in the TRO filing about some group carry walk) and in return we'll just quietly go back to the way it was for the last decade but instead filed a challenge to the entirety of 21.750 and most of 571 while utterly ignoring their governing statutes in 184 threatening every single dang thing we think we even know about 2A rights in MO (except for Amendment 5 which they utterly ignored). At every turn the zoo has taken something that was not or should have not been any big friggin deal and turned it into a cataclysm. That is the singular thing that most offends me about all this. If they had just **** in the first place instead of challenging the law themselves by posting signage they do not have authority to post, there never would have been an anything about anything. But no, a bunch of wealthy west county Bloomberg types want to dictate to the entirety of the state how our 2A rights should be exercised in some twisted reading of the statutes completely ignoring the plain language while ignoring their VERY limited authority under 184. /rant

If their challenge wins the same ruling will apply to the KC Zoo, and any museum, science center, planetarium, botanical gardens, park or recreation area, etc created or existing under any Metropolitan Zoological Park and Museum District. They think they dropped a nuke. I'm thinking they dropped a very messy, smelly stink bomb but the immediate situation is that the stink and mess hit just about everything to do with 2A in MO.
 
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kcgunfan

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I'm just saying that Mr. Jamison is an opinionated former Marine with some strongly held opinions. He's a great guy and there's nobody else I'd rather have on my side. Your analysis is spot on though. It's no longer an OC issue. If I were there, I'd likely CCW and point out out to the guards, because the TRO is definitely in violation of state law.

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redhawk44

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Wheatland, MO
I'm just saying that Mr. Jamison is an opinionated former Marine with some strongly held opinions. He's a great guy and there's nobody else I'd rather have on my side. Your analysis is spot on though. It's no longer an OC issue. If I were there, I'd likely CCW and point out out to the guards, because the TRO is definitely in violation of state law.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
My first thought was also that "the TRO is definitely in violation of state law", and holds no weight of law on appeal.

It did however get the judicial review started.
 

BB62

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** IMPORTANT - MUST READ ** Location/Entry Information

(this was sent to the authorities and media also)

I'm using a relative's computer, to which I have limited access, and which is slow and has a small screen - so if anyone wants to contact me, do it via my cell phone.

It is my intention to enter the Zoo today wearing an openly worn, empty holster.

If I am asked to leave, I will conduct myself as I've previously described to the authorities and the press - I will not. The Zoo has taken actions to destroy my Second Amendment and MO Constitution, Article 1, Section 23 rights, and I'll be darned if they usurp my First Amendment rights also.

It is my intention to enter via the South gate, after meeting whomever arrives there at 1:30.

My entry WILL NOT be part of a "march" or "walk", it will simply be Sam Peyton and I together.

If others wish to enter the Zoo, I will make it clear to those who arrive outside the gate that I consider us (and we in fact are) like-minded individuals visiting the Zoo. I certainly don't want a group snaking its way through the premises.
I have heard that the Zoo may make attempts to disallow people from assembling on the Zoo property. I don't know if those reports are accurate, but concerned individuals may want to assemble at the North gate, where, to my understanding there is non-Zoo property across the street. That being the case, those who assemble there could be armed, and not in violation of the Temporary Restraining Order.

See you at the Zoo!
 

BB62

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...Then instead of just contacting BB62 and following up with a yeah, we probably can't stop you at this point but it would be really great if you didn't have an armed march in the zoo
Just to clarify, there was NEVER going to be an armed "march" or "walk" at the Zoo.

I was very careful and repetitive in saying "The time/date/nature of the event is to be determined", and I "determined" early on that any armed assemblage snaking its way through the Zoo would be horrible optics.
 
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deepdiver

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Just to clarify, there was NEVER going to be an armed "march" or "walk" at the Zoo.

I was very careful and repetitive in saying "The time/date/nature of the event is to be determined", and I "determined" early on that any armed assemblage snaking its way through the Zoo would be horrible optics.
Excellent point. I was intending to comment to the claims in the TRO filing by the zoo but can certainly see how my verbiage could be understood differently. I have now edited my referenced post to clarify on this particular issue.

BB62 did say REPEATEDLY that his plan was for HE and PEYTON to go into the zoo and repeatedly in his letters said "I" intend to carry into the zoo. Another example of the zoo overstating in an overwrought filing.
 

BB62

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I sent out a notice earlier this morning to the press and the authorities, stating my intention to enter the Zoo with an EMPTY holster.

I just spoke to Chief Dotson by phone, and he indicated that there would be no problem, as long as everyone behaves themselves. :rolleyes:

Yes, I know what you're thinking... and guess what? The Chief told me the same sort of protesters (some of whom were unhinged), who were at CityGarden last October will be there today.

As always, I'll be glad to engage in reasonable dialogue with people, as long as they do the same, and even though I don't know many of you, I know you will be too.

On the other hand, those on the other side of the fence who are mentally unstable or physically threatening will get the attention of the police >> who will be present. <<

See you at the Zoo! :D
 

BB62

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** After-action report **

I arrived at 1:00 and stood under an umbrella near the entrance. Almost immediately a process server gave me an envelope containing the TRO paperwork.

A TV reporter interviewed me while various Lying Mommy members hung around with their signage in a pathetic attempt at I don't know what.

Also arriving at about the same time were two *armed* individuals who shall remain anonymous. I don't believe they are OCDO members.

After the TV interview I walked back down to the entrance area, where an anti-gun person was videoing a pro-gun person, both engaged in passionate, but restrained debate.

I stayed out near the street in the shade of the walkway, and more empty holster people arrived, as well as more media people. The reporters talked to me and various other people, talked to the sign-wielding Lying Mommy members. The anti people liked to hang around with video cameras or smartphones videoing things. It seems this is their M.O. - though I'm clueless as to why. Strange.

Sam Peyton had vehicle problems and wasn't able to make it.

I estimate that about 10 people came, in fact there were about an equivalent amount of cops. There were a few more on the anti side.

At one point I suggested to a couple of reporters that were I to go over and attempt to talk to the anti people the response would either be a) bile, or b) an unwillingness to talk. I walked over and asked "Does anyone want to engage in dialogue?" Everyone shook their head except one person, who said "My sign speaks for me". Silly.

Myself and 4 others visited a St. Louis eatery, together with Danny Wicentowski of the Riverfront Times. He asked three of us to walk down the street while he observed people's reactions, and his photographer, Theo, took pictures.


Thanks

I would like to thank everyone who came, and especially thank those who contributed so substantially in the area of Missouri law - color of law, LMTD, and deepdiver. One other person deserves similar credit, but he values his anonymity. It needs to be recognized that this event involved substantially more legal salvos being sent the way of the non-responding authorities. Bottom line - without the assistance I received regarding Missouri laws, I don't think the Zoo would have gone to the mat.

Even though the result was NO answers (until the TRO), as deepdiver said, rather than answer a simple question the authorities essentially said "Drop dead!" by their silence. The Zoo then sought and received a Temporary Restraining Order.


Summary

As deepdiver so eloquently summarized, the assertions made by the Zoo turn Missouri gun law upside down. The question is "What are people willing to do about it?" If you haven't read the filings, you absolutely need to. People who have been saying for months "We need a court case" now have one - in spades.

The TRO isn't about something as simple as "Does A5/Article 1, Section 23 override existing OC bans, without resorting to SB656?" - it suggests that in 571.107, "concealed" actually means "concealed or open".

The main part of this battle is going to have to be waged by Missourians, who need to 1) reach out to every resource they can think of so that legal firepower can be brought to bear on the TRO, and 2) contact their legislators and say "The Zoo isn't some delicate snowflake that gets to re-define law to suit its political beliefs". (of course there are other things too, but the above is a start)

I intend to check with legal counsel when I return home, but in the meanwhile, read the filings and the TRO issued.
 

nonameisgood

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That's about as fair a written report as could be expected considering that news is written at a 5th grade level and words like "violate state preemption" becomes "local laws are in conflict with state laws". Pretty straight forward it seems.

"Local laws"? Don't you mean "rules made up by zoo management without consulting an attorney familiar with firearms law in Missouri"?


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deepdiver

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"Local laws"? Don't you mean "rules made up by zoo management without consulting an attorney familiar with firearms law in Missouri"?


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"rules created by zoo management exceeding their statutory authority and in direct contravention of, conflict with and disregard for state law implemented with the intent to deprive Missouri citizens and visitors of their constitutionally protected rights." But I'm not going to quibble over a few words. :)
 

Grapeshot

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"rules created by zoo management exceeding their statutory authority and in direct contravention of, conflict with and disregard for state law implemented with the intent to deprive Missouri citizens and visitors of their constitutionally protected rights." But I'm not going to quibble over a few words. :)

Looking foward to the hearing 6/22 and the word(s) quibbling.
 

deepdiver

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Looking foward to the hearing 6/22 and the word(s) quibbling.

I certainly hope that Missouri firearm owners are able to organize and attract enough support to be able to launch a thundering defense.

If the law is on your side, pound the law. If the facts are on your side, pound the facts. If neither are on your side pound the table.

The zoo's TRO and Permanent Injunction filings are all table pounding but it will take a good attorney and sufficient funding to pound the law and facts for the judge.
 
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